Pete Carroll-what went wrong?

[upstater1]

Parcells book was written by Will McDonough.

Will is the guy that reported that Kraft had agreed to pick Cedric Jones, but when the Giants took him, that's when Kraft backed Grier. After Jones was gone, Kraft wanted to trade down. This is from a George Kimball article the day after the draft: "The watershed moment of NFL draft weekend came just before 2 p.m. on Saturday. With the clock ticking away on the Patriots, a triumvirate representing the New England brain trust - coach Bill Parcells, personnel director Bobby Grier and Kraft - went into an office belonging to scouting chief Charley Armey to debate the merits of their imminent pick." When they came out, the pick was Glenn. This shows that the crucial meeting between Kraft, Grier and Parcells happened after Cedric Jones was picked. This is what the Patriots were thinking when they took Glenn, from another Herald article:

Glenn set single-season school records for receiving yards (1,411) and touchdowns (17) last year as a junior while hauling in 64 catches.

The records were previously owned by Cris Carter (Vikings) and Joey Galloway (Seahawks), respectively.

Glenn's big numbers made him a consensus All-American and recipient of the Fred Biletnikoff Award, given to the top receiver in the nation.

"I'm very excited because the Patriots' organization is well put together and they have a great deal of talent," said Glenn.

"And working with Drew Bledsoe is kind of like working with Bobby Hoying last year, so maybe we can get out there and thrive a little bit."

Kraft said on Saturday that Glenn's character was as important as his 4.29 speed in the 40-yard dash, and that clinched the Pats' decision to go with the wide receiver.

Yes, Patriots Football Weekly and Lindy's among others.

Glenn was the Biletnikoff winner, a kid with greater speed than Harrison and Johnson, and he had incredible body control. He could lay out for a catch, jump higher, etc. That video I showed says it all. Harrison was very close to him, and Keyshawn was just bigger, but had nowhere near the speed. Glenn was the Patriots #1 guy on the board, as this quote from the Herald shows:

FOXBORO - Patriots owner Robert Kraft used the term "layup" in describing his team's decision to take Ohio State wide receiver Terry Glenn with its first pick in yesterday's NFL draft.

"On our board, Terry was the highest rated player," Kraft said. "And there was a huge gap between him and the rest of the players.

"This is my third draft here and I don't think any more than three or four players were rated at (Glenn's) level on our value chart. Marshall Faulk wasn't quite as high. Dan Wilkinson (the first pick in the 1994 draft) was close but not as high.

"(Taking Glenn) was a layup. We would have taken him over Keyshawn Johnson if both were there."

Johnson, out of USC, went to the New York Jets with the first overall pick.

"It was clear to me that we're getting a great pick," Kraft said. "The lucky thing for us and the great thing for the future of the franchise is that we got one of those rare impact players."

And even more about what the Pats were thinking, from Mannix. Note in particular what Parcells said:

Despite the early action, no other team followed up on the possibility of trading up to the Pats' place. And without trading down, the Pats couldn't trade up.

Which may not be all bad. If they wind up with wide receiver Terry Glenn at that spot, it makes them more explosive offensively. The Ohio State product is considered an "impact" wide receiver in the Joey Galloway mold, a player who can turn a game around on one play.

If they get a defensive end such as Tony Brackens (Texas), Cedric Jones (Oklahoma) or Duane Clemons (California), it gives them an upper-echelon pass rusher. Nothing wrong with that. The Pats' defensive linemen had a total of 11 sacks last season. With the team switching to a 4-3 defense, it could use another outside rusher.

So where do they go if they stay at No. 7 and all four of those players are available? It depends on how high they rate Glenn. If they think he is the class of the wide receivers and one of the top players in the draft, they've got to take him.

Yes, if they go for one of the defensive linemen with the first pick, they could get a good receiver in the second round. Penn State's Bobby Engram should be around on the 36th pick. Derrick Mayes of Notre Dame might be, too.

But if the Patriots' scouts rate Glenn as a special talent, they've got to take him. Would you rather have Joey Galloway or Vincent Brisby?

If, in their estimation, Glenn is a quality receiver but rated the same as one of the defensive linemen in overall ability, they've got to go with the defensive player with the top pick. There probably won't be any quality defensive linemen around at the start of the second round.

The key is obviously their opinion of Glenn. Pats coach Bill Parcells said last year that Galloway was the No. 1 player on their draft board. Some teams think Glenn is in that category.

People talk about the great receivers available later, but I just did a Factiva private database search (top AND wide receivers AND NFL draft [between 3/1/1996 and 5/1/1996]) and saw that the Harrison pick was very controversial, and the Moulds pick was absolutely blasted in Buffalo and all over the league. Wannstedt with the Bears even opined that it was a bad pick. Not only that, but Will McDonough also rated Glenn highly as the second best receiver after Johnson. Kiper had him as the 3rd best pick in the draft after Lawrence Phillips and Johnson.

This is what Rick Gosselin has to say:

RATING THE WIDE RECEIVERS

Staff Writer Rick Gosselin looks at the top wide receivers that will be available for the 1996 NFL draft on April 20-21.

Player School Ht. Wt. Notable

Keyshawn Johnson Southern Cal 6-3 220 Pac-10 record 90 catches

Terry Glenn Ohio State 5-10 184 1,316 yards, 17 TDs

Eddie Kennison LSU 5-11 191 Team MVP

Marvin Harrison Syracuse 5-11 181 4.28 speed in the 40

Eric Moulds Mississippi State 6-0 204 17.1-yard career average

Mush Muhammad Michigan State 6-1 217 4.38 speed in the 40

Derrick Mayes Notre Dame 6-0 200 22 career TDs

Bobby Engram Penn State 5-9 187 1994 Biletnikoff winner

Alex Van Dyke Nevada 5-11 200 NCAA-record 1,854 yards

Bryan Still Virginia Tech 5-11 176 4.36 speed in the 40

* ALL-AMERICAS: Johnson, Glenn.

* AWARD WINNER: Glenn (Biletnikoff).

* TOP JUNIOR: Glenn.

* THE BEST: Johnson played only two seasons at Southern Cal but caught 156 passes to finish third on the school's all-time receiving list. A former Southern Cal ball boy, Johnson gained 100 or more yards receiving in 16 of his 22 games.

* OTHER POSSIBLE No. 1s: Glenn, Kennison, Harrison, Moulds.

* NUMBERS GAME: Van Dyke's 129 catches were 37 more than anyone else in Division I, and his 1,854 yards broke a 30-year-old NCAA record held by Howard Twilley of Tulsa.

* ALL IN THE FAMILY: Penn State's Freddie Scott Jr. is the son of Freddie Sr., who caught 292 passes in a 10-year NFL career with Baltimore and Detroit (1974-83). Freddie Jr. skipped his senior season to apply for the NFL draft.

* BEST TEXAN: Mercury Hayes, Michigan (Houston Washington). Hayes caught 48 passes for 923 yards and four touchdowns last season to lead the Wolverines. He earned second-team All-Big Ten and projects as a third-round pick.

* DID YOU KNOW?: Mayes scored touchdowns on his first three college receptions. He leaves South Bend with a school-record 22 TD receptions.

* ON THE RISE: Muhammad's stock sky-rocketed from December on. He caught nine passes for 171 yards and a touchdown in the Independence Bowl against LSU, then caught another TD pass in the Hula Bowl. He combines size, speed and productivity.

* TRACKING: Dietrich Jells of Pitt is a two-time Big East 100-meter champion. He's an even better football player with a school-record 160 career catches and 3,003 yards.

* SLEEPER: Clarence Jones, Tennessee State. He caught almost 100 passes in 1993-94, then sat out the 1995 season because of academics. He's a former prep hurdles champion in Florida.

I happen to believe the 1993 was OK and the 1995 draft might have been one of the best ever. The top 3 picks might have make it to the hall of fame if it wasn't for Johnson's concussions. The 1994 draft was bad, other than McGinest.

Well, I wrote early drafts, and I think 1993 was bad. I'm not sure how you think it was OK. If you think it was OK, then some of Grier's drafts would be deemed OK, because he found as many players as well, but Rucci, Brown and Bledsoe isn't enough (and Bledsoe was the #1).

Parcells had to do something good personnel wise, since the 1992 team was horrible, and he took the Pats to the playoffs 2 years later.

With his hold the fort guys, Troy Brown wasn't even playing back then. The only draftee to help him was Bledsoe.

I won't say Parcells is a draft guru. Over time, everybody is going to get bad drafts. But he went to 5 team and rebuild them over 2 years. Nobody else has done that in the history of the NFL. Not even Belichick. The guy must know something about players.

Parcells did that with coaching. And, not many guys have been with 5 teams PERIOD.

 

[upstater1]

Continued:

Please, instead of jumping to your guns, read what I said. Between Grier and Carroll, Grier is the one who destroyed a pretty good team. Carroll was stuck with the players Grier provided him. It is not fair to judge Carroll over the bad decision Grier did. Carroll's team did pretty good when compared to Parcells'. True, Carroll had lost control in the end, but with Grier overruling suspensions Carroll had given, it's nothing to get a good credibility with the players.

We just disagree. I thought Carroll was as bad as Grier. The few players Grier did get for Carroll were basically wasted under Carroll, and they only came into their own after Carroll left.

People always like to judge players based on potential, even if the production is not there to back it up. Like you with Glenn. But as Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Stats don't lie. And Carroll Pats teams were always above 500 and in the top half statistics wise.


He finished 8-8. It was a downward spiral, each year worse than the next.

Go read Coldhardfootballfacts.com. You'll learn a thing or 2 about football.

Stop being an arrogant putz.


My point exactly. Grier did a mess, Belichick had to clean it up. But in 1999 Carroll had to work with a team heading for disaster. The core of the teams was older and nobody was brought in to replace those aging players. Bad drafts and huge contracts given to average players are usually taking a team down pretty fast. I'm just saying it's not fair to judge Carroll over that.

I'm judging Carroll on the mindless crazy things he used to do on the football field. Stopping a drive in which you have momentum as your team is coming back from a deficit is just asinine. Carroll was clearly overwhelmed by making coaching decisions at that level.

 

[upstater1]

As a body of work, no one would say Grier had better draft judgment than Parcells, which was my point.

If you want to isolate one pick and say you know for sure Parcells would have picked Jones, fine. No one individual pick proves anything.



If you concede that, you make my point completely. You can come up with a dozen scenarios where we get a more accomplished, more emotionally stable receiver and a high pick or two thrown in.

At the time they were picking, Grier didn't exploit the value of the pick because he didn't evaluate the draftboard as well as Parcells.

If you read my last reply to Rd11, you'll see that even Parcells, long before the draft, said that terry Glenn was easily the #1 pick on the board. But he still wanted to go with defense. Here's something scary I dug up when I was searching the news archive. Will McDonough suggested that Parcells wanted to trade up for Kevin Hardy, and if he couldn't do that, he'd try to take Cedric Jones at #7, and if that failed, he would trade down for Clemons/Brackens and a wide receiver in the second. Who was that WR that McDonough mentioned the Patriots were looking at? Derrick Mayes. Oh, could they have taken, say, Eric Moulds? No, Moulds was completely off the Patriots board because of character issues, such as ordering a pizza during a game, leaving the locker room during a coach's speech, and other shenanigans. Many teams had Moulds completely off the board.

Kiper piped in and said Moulds was iffy on route running but easily the best YAC guy in the draft. Craig James piped in and said Moulds was a ME first player, but guess what, so was Keyshawn, and every other wide receiver going, so he defended Moulds. There it is. The Patriots were looking at Glenn early, or else guys like Derrick Mayes and Bobby Engram in the second. Parcells would have definitely taken Clemons or Brackens with the drop down first round pick ahead of a WR.

A couple other interesting tidbits, the entire Patriots' team had tested Glenn psychologically 3 weeks before the draft, and they called him a high character player. This after taking Moulds off their board. Also, Parcells never did any scouting for the 2006 draft as opposed to other years. He wasn't at the combine. One thing that gets left off in all these discussions, but the old newspaper articles reminded me, is that Kraft made the choices in that room according to a committee of 3, Bobby Grier, Bill Parcells and Charley Armey. In fact, Armey sided with Grier on the crucial picks, and Kraft essentially said Parcells was outvoted.

It's also interesting to note that Armey left for the Rams a year or so later, and Grier's drafts became much worse than the 1996 draft. It could be that Armey was the wizard in the whole scene.

 

[RDS11]

It's also interesting to note that Armey left for the Rams a year or so later, and Grier's drafts became much worse than the 1996 draft. It could be that Armey was the wizard in the whole scene.

I do agree with you on that one. I never understood why Grier got the VP job and not Armey. I don't know if he was interested in the job or not, but the fact that he left in 1996 was probably a good indication he didn'y have Grier in high esteem.

The few players Grier did get for Carroll were basically wasted under Carroll, and they only came into their own after Carroll left.

With Armey as the GM, I think it would have given a better chance for Carroll to succeed. I don't know if he would have done much better, or lost control as he did, but he would have probably have been surrounded with better players. Because I don't see anybody sticking out that was brought in by Grier during Carroll's years. As I showed in a previous post, 50% of the 1999 Patriots starters were not in the NFL 2 years later. It isn't fair to Carroll who had nothing to do with that. He could have coached is a** off, it was not going to matter, there was too little talent on that team to expect anything more.

You mentioned Spires, which at the time was a very good backup to McGinest on the 4-3 defense, but that's the exception to the rule. During those 3 years, the roster lost more quality players than it gained, and the core of the team just got older.

Kiper piped in and said

I sure hope the Pats scouting staff don't put anything into what Kiper has to say. There's a reason why nobody hired him even if he tried every team in the NFL before being hired by ESPN.

I think you also vastly overestimate Glenn's value entering the 1996 draft. I don't remember reading anything about Parcells saying he was the #1 player. Nobody even mentioned him as a possible #1. He was never close to a Randy Moss or a Calvin Johnson entering the draft. Instead, he was a big question mark. He had started only 1 year for OSU and had put up Joey Galloway's numbers. His stock had skyrocketed in that 1 year as a starter, and usually the production never match the hype.

Not trying to be arrogant here, but there's a nice article on coldhardfootballfactscom about the impacts of consecutive bad drafts. They took the 2006 and 2007 Pats drafts as examples. What it says is that it doesn't take 5 or 6 bad drafts in a row for a team to feel the consequences. I do think this is what happened under Grier : his draft were pretty bad from 97 to 99, he didn't add anything to the core of the team, and 2nd day draft picks were not able to contribute and become valuable backups.

Might be a stretch, by one might compare Carroll to Marinelli. Marinelli might or might not be a good head coach, we might never know. Millen didn't provided him with enough talent for him to have a chance to succeed.

 

[RayClay]

If you read my last reply to Rd11, you'll see that even Parcells, long before the draft, said that terry Glenn was easily the #1 pick on the board. But he still wanted to go with defense. Here's something scary I dug up when I was searching the news archive. Will McDonough suggested that Parcells wanted to trade up for Kevin Hardy, and if he couldn't do that, he'd try to take Cedric Jones at #7, and if that failed, he would trade down for Clemons/Brackens and a wide receiver in the second. Who was that WR that McDonough mentioned the Patriots were looking at? Derrick Mayes. Oh, could they have taken, say, Eric Moulds? No, Moulds was completely off the Patriots board because of character issues, such as ordering a pizza during a game, leaving the locker room during a coach's speech, and other shenanigans. Many teams had Moulds completely off the board.

Kiper piped in and said Moulds was iffy on route running but easily the best YAC guy in the draft. Craig James piped in and said Moulds was a ME first player, but guess what, so was Keyshawn, and every other wide receiver going, so he defended Moulds. There it is. The Patriots were looking at Glenn early, or else guys like Derrick Mayes and Bobby Engram in the second. Parcells would have definitely taken Clemons or Brackens with the drop down first round pick ahead of a WR.

A couple other interesting tidbits, the entire Patriots' team had tested Glenn psychologically 3 weeks before the draft, and they called him a high character player. This after taking Moulds off their board. Also, Parcells never did any scouting for the 2006 draft as opposed to other years. He wasn't at the combine. One thing that gets left off in all these discussions, but the old newspaper articles reminded me, is that Kraft made the choices in that room according to a committee of 3, Bobby Grier, Bill Parcells and Charley Armey. In fact, Armey sided with Grier on the crucial picks, and Kraft essentially said Parcells was outvoted.

It's also interesting to note that Armey left for the Rams a year or so later, and Grier's drafts became much worse than the 1996 draft. It could be that Armey was the wizard in the whole scene.

Orthwien put Parcells in charge. Kraft gradually took away authority from the most qualified person. Armey originally worked under Parcells. The fact that Armey was competent doesn't detract from the fact that Grier was a buffoon.

You have to have worked in the Patriots draft room in 1996. as a matter of fact, you must have been in the chain of command. I would imagine you have more inside information than even the principles would remember. Do you expect us to believe you know all that as a fact?

I believe Bill Parcells has enough of a record. I don't need to belabor the obvious.

Glenn was a walk on, his mother was murdered and he needed to move in with another family. No indication of problems there? Was he a pitiful alcoholic or drug user back then? Did he grope women and urinate in public when he drank? If he got a clear psychological evaluation I think they have grounds to sue that psychologist.

Glenn might have been the top on a generic board. I'm sure you know that means zero to any individual board.

The Blueprint
How the New England Patriots Beat the System to Create the Last Great NFL Superpower
Thomas Dunne Books
Published: October 2007 P. 70.

Armey was Parcell's assistant. How was Parcells career before and since, how was Armey's? I don't know that he's been in demand this century.

 

[upstater1]

With Armey as the GM, I think it would have given a better chance for Carroll to succeed. I don't know if he would have done much better, or lost control as he did, but he would have probably have been surrounded with better players. Because I don't see anybody sticking out that was brought in by Grier during Carroll's years. As I showed in a previous post, 50% of the 1999 Patriots starters were not in the NFL 2 years later. It isn't fair to Carroll who had nothing to do with that. He could have coached is a** off, it was not going to matter, there was too little talent on that team to expect anything more.


There were approx 2 or 3 players a year that were decent (not great picks) and those were not nearly enough to compete with, but nonetheless, Glenn, Milloy, Bruschi, Edwards, Spires, Woody, Katzenmoyer, Faulk, these were not bad picks. Milloy excelled under Pete Carroll. The others excelled more under other coaching than Carroll. All of those players (except Edwards) had better seasons after Carroll left. In some ways, Glenn, Edwards and Katzenmoyer are similar in that injuries derailed all three promising careers. By the time Glenn made it to the Belichick regime, he had spent more time injured than in the game, and Katzenmoyer jammed his neck in BB's first year, even though Belichick made a nice player out of him. Katz was playing well. The irony is that I recall that Carroll himself was highly instrumental on bringing two of these players to the Patriots. Carroll was very high on Tenbucky Jones (who I consider a bad pick) and Andy Katzenmoyer.

I sure hope the Pats scouting staff don't put anything into what Kiper has to say. There's a reason why nobody hired him even if he tried every team in the NFL before being hired by ESPN.

I tried to provide as many articles as I could, from Gosselin to McDonough to Kimball, Mannix, Kiper, etc. You gave me Lindy's and Sporting News, these are as equivalent to Kiper as anything. None of these are professional scouts. Also, Parcells did say that the Patriots had Glenn rated at the top. Most thought Parcells was blowing smoke, I'm guessing.

I think you also vastly overestimate Glenn's value entering the 1996 draft. I don't remember reading anything about Parcells saying he was the #1 player.


I provided you with the direct quote from McDonough's article in the previous post. I could easily find the citation for you. Furthermore, all the searching I did revealed the same thing. Glenn was highly thought of, and there were references in the McDonough article to a majority of teams had him ranked highly, and it wasn't only the Patriots who had him ahead of Keyshawn.

Nobody even mentioned him as a possible #1. He was never close to a Randy Moss or a Calvin Johnson entering the draft. Instead, he was a big question mark. He had started only 1 year for OSU and had put up Joey Galloway's numbers. His stock had skyrocketed in that 1 year as a starter, and usually the production never match the hype.

Huh? That's just wrong. Everything I just read this afternoon from multiple sources is the opposite of what you wrote. First off, he came out early. Second, he was the #3 receiver behind Joey Galloway and Chris Sanders, which is why he didn't see playing time initially. Third, he never redshirted because he was walk-on. Fourth, he was a walk-on despite getting 10 scholarship offers from BCS schools. He worked at Ohio stadium as a young man, and always wanted to go to OSU, especially because he wanted to be near his sister. Read the quoted article I gave you above where the Patriots said his scores were higher than any player they had scouted in many years. He not only had great production at OSU, he broke the all-time receiving records, with a slew of TDs and over 1,400 yards, that was over 130 yards average a game! So how can you say production never matched the hype? He had the greatest season in OSU history, better than Galloway and Cris Carter.

Might be a stretch, by one might compare Carroll to Marinelli. Marinelli might or might not be a good head coach, we might never know. Millen didn't provided him with enough talent for him to have a chance to succeed.

I would compare Carroll to Marinelli for other reasons.

 

[upstater1]

Orthwien put Parcells in charge. Kraft gradually took away authority from the most qualified person. Armey originally worked under Parcells. The fact that Armey was competent doesn't detract from the fact that Grier was a buffoon.

You have to have worked in the Patriots draft room in 1996. as a matter of fact, you must have been in the chain of command. I would imagine you have more inside information than even the principles would remember. Do you expect us to believe you know all that as a fact?

I believe Bill Parcells has enough of a record. I don't need to belabor the obvious.

Glenn was a walk on, his mother was murdered and he needed to move in with another family. No indication of problems there? Was he a pitiful alcoholic or drug user back then? Did he grope women and urinate in public when he drank? If he got a clear psychological evaluation I think they have grounds to sue that psychologist.

Glenn might have been the top on a generic board. I'm sure you know that means zero to any individual board.

The Blueprint
How the New England Patriots Beat the System to Create the Last Great NFL Superpower
Thomas Dunne Books
Published: October 2007 P. 70.

Armey was Parcell's assistant. How was Parcells career before and since, how was Armey's? I don't know that he's been in demand this century.

How does that contradict any of the articles I sourced above?

You say I must have been in the room, and all I did was provide articles that I'm citing. You haven't provided one article that disputed ANYTHING I wrote above. Read the part especially in the article where it says that Armey agreed that the Terry Glenn was the best move for the Patriots, over Bill Parcells' suggestion.

Stop with this nonsense that I claimed I was in the room. I provided you with plenty of articles to show you where I'm getting my information. I can provide a lot more. There were about 20 articles in the Globe and Herald on these issues, with people IN THAT ROOM. Mannix, Borges, McD, all there, and some of the articles even gave a time stamp for what went on. The blow out didn't happen until after 2 pm while the Patriots were on the clock. The meeting took place in Armey's office with Armey there.

THAT's where I'm getting my info.

 

[RDS11]

Huh? That's just wrong. Everything I just read this afternoon from multiple sources is the opposite of what you wrote.

You gotta provide a source for that. Glenn was NEVER in contention to be the #1 guy in 1996. Johnson was the consensus #1 WR in the draft. He ended up having a better career as well.
Sure the owner was going to say his pick was the best. But outside the Pats organization, nobody would have picked Glenn first. It's just nonsense. Great video on Glenn on youtube, but great physical specimen are available every draft. Remember Mamula ?

There were approx 2 or 3 players a year that were decent (not great picks) and those were not nearly enough to compete with, but nonetheless, Glenn, Milloy, Bruschi, Edwards, Spires, Woody, Katzenmoyer, Faulk, these were not bad picks.

I said that the 1997 thru 199 draft were terrible, and that 2 straight bad drafts can send a team in a deep hole. You're coming back with picks from the 1996 draft.

Spires and Woody, I give you that. Quality starter and quality backup that were added on top of the players already in place. Edwards was Martin's replacement, so it's a toss up. Faulk was not a factor until 2003. Belichick sent Redmond on the field instead of Faulk for the final drive of SB 36. It's a Grier pick, but Fault needed Belichick teaching to succeed. I still think Katz was overrated, a la Bosworth. He was rated top 10, then dropped to the Pats at 28.

OK, so over a 3 year period, Grier has added 4 quality players / backups. Not good.

With his hold the fort guys, Troy Brown wasn't even playing back then. The only draftee to help him was Bledsoe.

Again, not true. In 1993, Slade started 5 games and had 9 sacks. Brisby started 12 games and had 45 catches. Corwin Brown started 12 games at SS.
Brown played in 12 games and was one one the regular on punt and kickoff returns.

Well, I wrote early drafts, and I think 1993 was bad. I'm not sure how you think it was OK. If you think it was OK, then some of Grier's drafts would be deemed OK, because he found as many players as well, but Rucci, Brown and Bledsoe isn't enough (and Bledsoe was the #1).

OK, if I tell you that on a given draft, a team would draft 7 players that would play in the league at least 7 years, I don't think you would consider it a bad draft...oh wait, that's the 1993 Pats draft I'm talking about.

Parcells did that with coaching. And, not many guys have been with 5 teams PERIOD.

That's right, I also thought teams were crazy for giving huge money for GMs since they are so useless.
The Pats shouldn't worry about losing Pioli, since Belichick should be able to coach any street player into pro bowlers.

 

[RDS11]

One last thing over this issue :
Carroll went on to USC, has 1 National Championship, an 88-15 record, 7 straight season in the top 10.
Armey went on to the Rams as director of scouting, has 1 Super Bow ring and another Super Bl appearance.
Parcells rebuild the Jets, then the Cowboys and now the Dolphins. Each teams had a playoff berth within the first 2 years.
Grier, after the horrible 2000 draft, his 4th consecutive one, went on to the new Houston Texans as associate director of pro scouting. They are still waiting for their 1st winning season.

 

[Lifer]

You gotta provide a source for that. Glenn was NEVER in contention to be the #1 guy in 1996. Johnson was the consensus #1 WR in the draft. He ended up having a better career as well.
Sure the owner was going to say his pick was the best. But outside the Pats organization, nobody would have picked Glenn first. It's just nonsense. Great video on Glenn on youtube, but great physical specimen are available every draft. Remember Mamula ?



I said that the 1997 thru 199 draft were terrible, and that 2 straight bad drafts can send a team in a deep hole. You're coming back with picks from the 1996 draft.

Spires and Woody, I give you that. Quality starter and quality backup that were added on top of the players already in place. Edwards was Martin's replacement, so it's a toss up. Faulk was not a factor until 2003. Belichick sent Redmond on the field instead of Faulk for the final drive of SB 36. It's a Grier pick, but Fault needed Belichick teaching to succeed. I still think Katz was overrated, a la Bosworth. He was rated top 10, then dropped to the Pats at 28.

OK, so over a 3 year period, Grier has added 4 quality players / backups. Not good.



Again, not true. In 1993, Slade started 5 games and had 9 sacks. Brisby started 12 games and had 45 catches. Corwin Brown started 12 games at SS.
Brown played in 12 games and was one one the regular on punt and kickoff returns.



OK, if I tell you that on a given draft, a team would draft 7 players that would play in the league at least 7 years, I don't think you would consider it a bad draft...oh wait, that's the 1993 Pats draft I'm talking about.



That's right, I also thought teams were crazy for giving huge money for GMs since they are so useless.
The Pats shouldn't worry about losing Pioli, since Belichick should be able to coach any street player into pro bowlers.

Kevin Faulk was a factor before 2003. In SB 36 he had a key run before the end of the 1st half ( when Grant Williams blocked 2 guys) and in 2002 he had some great games at Chicago and against Miami.

 

[RDS11]

Kevin Faulk was a factor before 2003.

I did not refute Fault impact, but before 2003 he wasn't used as much. The fact that Belichick put Redmond on the field instead of Faulk for the most important drive of the year at he end of SB 36 is a proof that Faulk wasn't accomplished the way he is now.

My point was that Faulk was a good pickup from Grier, one of the very few ones, but for Carroll's final year he couldn't contribute as we know he can now. It's similar to Troy Brown, as he was around prior to 1999 and did show some very good plays (I will always remember his 3rd down catch, on his back, on the game winning drive against the Giants in 1996), but it took a few years before he became a key contributor.

 

[RayClay]

Glenn busted for two reasons. He was injury prone. He had a fantastic rookie season, and would have been in the tops of that class (not a Marvin Harrison, obviously) if he weren't injured all the time. By the time he was under Belichick, he had become a big problem.

Parcells wanted Cedric Jones. If they had gone with Jones, they wouldn't have made the Super Bowl. And who knows what would have been made of Parcells' reputation.

Injury prone? How about an unstable alcoholic that got a drug suspension, showed up on a local talk show high as a kite, groped some girl and urinated in public in view of everybody and forced BB to kick him off the team despite the talent loss.

If you want to rewrite history, you should really write a book. Kraft said Glenn was a slam dunk, so? He sells paper products.

Mannix read people's minds, that's wonderful, he should go to the Enquirer.

A draft picker liked glenn, wonderful. Football men still make the picks and the only football men were Parcells and Armey. You said yourself Parcells wanted to trade out for Brackens. That's more value.

Oh, could they have taken, say, Eric Moulds? No, Moulds was completely off the Patriots board because of character issues, such as ordering a pizza during a game, leaving the locker room during a coach's speech, and other shenanigans. Many teams had Moulds completely off the board.

A couple other interesting tidbits, the entire Patriots' team had tested Glenn psychologically 3 weeks before the draft, and they called him a high character player. This after taking Moulds off their board. Also, Parcells never did any scouting for the 2006 draft as opposed to other years. He wasn't at the combine. One thing that gets left off in all these discussions, but the old newspaper articles reminded me, is that Kraft made the choices in that room according to a committee of 3, Bobby Grier, Bill Parcells and Charley Armey. In fact, Armey sided with Grier on the crucial picks, and Kraft essentially said Parcells was outvoted.

You know that?(bolded) How?

Reread Armwy's actual quotes. Writers and draft analysts say lots of stuff. If you want to cherry pick it, by all means. No matter what you do it doesn't make Glenn stable, but injury prone (he was an emotional mess), Grier and Kraft equal in football judgement to Parcells (obvious), Armey as good a football man as Parcells who worked with Grier to make wondeful picks despite Big Bill.

Armey was Parcell's assistant. He had a good run with St. Louis. He and Parcells were the only ones of the four who knew jack about selecting football players and past and future history of the four makes that painfully obvious.

If you want to be President and sole member of the Bobby Grier fan club I don't think you'll get any opposition.

 

[upstater1]

Injury prone? How about an unstable alcoholic that got a drug suspension, showed up on a local talk show high as a kite, groped some girl and urinated in public in view of everybody and forced BB to kick him off the team despite the talent loss.

I was talking about his 3 years under Carroll, not his last year.

If you want to rewrite history, you should really write a book. Kraft said Glenn was a slam dunk, so? He sells paper products.


I gave a million other quotes which you chose to ignore, not only Kraft's. You're demented if you think Glenn wasn't highly sought-after. Gosselin had Shanahan trying to move into the top 5 to grab him.

Mannix read people's minds, that's wonderful, he should go to the Enquirer.

What are you talking about? Mannix reported what he had been TOLD. Jeez, why do you distort things? You think these articles aren't easy to find? Written by McDonough, Borges and Mannix. They were there. Matter of fact, after McD died, Borges recounted the whole morning with McD of the 1996 draft, and he talked about how they both had different sources, and McD was kidding him that Borges source was lying. Borges said that McD was told (by guess who?) that Parcells was after Cedric Jones.

A draft picker liked glenn, wonderful. Football men still make the picks and the only football men were Parcells and Armey. You said yourself Parcells wanted to trade out for Brackens. That's more value.


Armey loved Glenn and sided with Grier. Parcells wanted Brackens in the first, and they were targeting Derrick Mayes in the second.

You know that?(bolded) How?


All that info was in the news articles I quoted from. Moulds, in fact, was off of almost every team's board in the same way that Randy Moss was off the board years later. I can give you the newspaper citations for all three statements if you like. In fact, the test for Glenn was precisely why Kraft called Glenn a high character player, when they didn't even have Moulds on the board. You can read a Buffalo News report on Moulds which underlines everything I said about him.

Reread Armwy's actual quotes. Writers and draft analysts say lots of stuff. If you want to cherry pick it, by all means. No matter what you do it doesn't make Glenn stable, but injury prone (he was an emotional mess), Grier and Kraft equal in football judgement to Parcells (obvious), Armey as good a football man as Parcells who worked with Grier to make wondeful picks despite Big Bill.

Armey took Grier's side.

Armey was Parcell's assistant. He had a good run with St. Louis. He and Parcells were the only ones of the four who knew jack about selecting football players and past and future history of the four makes that painfully obvious.

If you want to be President and sole member of the Bobby Grier fan club I don't think you'll get any opposition.

If you want to distort things, go ahead, you're doing a good job.

 

[upstater1]

One last thing over this issue :
Carroll went on to USC, has 1 National Championship, an 88-15 record, 7 straight season in the top 10.
Armey went on to the Rams as director of scouting, has 1 Super Bow ring and another Super Bl appearance.
Parcells rebuild the Jets, then the Cowboys and now the Dolphins. Each teams had a playoff berth within the first 2 years.
Grier, after the horrible 2000 draft, his 4th consecutive one, went on to the new Houston Texans as associate director of pro scouting. They are still waiting for their 1st winning season.

And this is as it should be.

Carroll should stick to his rah-rah act which is good for college.
Parcells was an excellent coach who will run the Dolphins into the ground with his idiotic drafting.
Grier is watching his son play pro hockey, as he should be.

Everything is right with the world.

 

[upstater1]

You gotta provide a source for that. Glenn was NEVER in contention to be the #1 guy in 1996. Johnson was the consensus #1 WR in the draft. He ended up having a better career as well.
Sure the owner was going to say his pick was the best. But outside the Pats organization, nobody would have picked Glenn first. It's just nonsense. Great video on Glenn on youtube, but great physical specimen are available every draft. Remember Mamula ?

I never said Glenn was in contention for the #1 pick, because that pick belonged to the Jets. I said Glenn was the #1 player on the PATRIOTS board and the board of other teams. He was Denver's #1 as well. Comparing Glenn to Mamula? Huh? Glenn broke the rookie record for receptions. He was the Biletnikoff winner in college and broke all of OSU's records with Cris Carter and Joey Galloway. please, absurd to call him a combine wonder like Mamula. That's just absurd.

I said that the 1997 thru 199 draft were terrible, and that 2 straight bad drafts can send a team in a deep hole. You're coming back with picks from the 1996 draft.

I never said anything different. Those drafts were bad. You're confusing things again. I said Grier's drafts were as bad as Parcells' drafts. 1993 and 1994 were awful, 1995 was maybe a bit better than 1996 but they were close. The point is, Parcells and Grier both excelled at bringing in one or two guys a year from the draft while having one good draft only.

Spires and Woody, I give you that. Quality starter and quality backup that were added on top of the players already in place.

Spires was much more than a quality backup. He became a Pro Bowler at Tampa.

Edwards was Martin's replacement, so it's a toss up. Faulk was not a factor until 2003. Belichick sent Redmond on the field instead of Faulk for the final drive of SB 36. It's a Grier pick, but Fault needed Belichick teaching to succeed. I still think Katz was overrated, a la Bosworth. He was rated top 10, then dropped to the Pats at 28.


BB would have gotten as much out of Katz as he did out of Faulk. You have to remember Katz came on under Belichick.

OK, so over a 3 year period, Grier has added 4 quality players / backups. Not good.

No one said otherwise, they were poor drafts.

Again, not true. In 1993, Slade started 5 games and had 9 sacks. Brisby started 12 games and had 45 catches. Corwin Brown started 12 games at SS.
Brown played in 12 games and was one one the regular on punt and kickoff returns.


Jeez, if you're going to include marginal guys like Brisby, Corwin B. and Slade, then don't you have to include Katzenmoyer, Sean Morey (who made big plays today), Tebucky Jones, Brandon Mitchell?

I'm not counting these players, but I can't see how Slade was any more valuable than Tebucky or Mitchell. All of these were about the same, and Morey has been a special teams demon, at least as good as Corwin Brown. It doesn't really make Grier's drafts all that much better to have JAGs. You need top notch long-term starters to score in the draft. None of these guys qualify.


OK, if I tell you that on a given draft, a team would draft 7 players that would play in the league at least 7 years, I don't think you would consider it a bad draft...oh wait, that's the 1993 Pats draft I'm talking about.


First, I don't count 7 in that year. But, I don't put much stock in that stat anyway. I look at the 1997 draft and notice that Brandon Mitchell, Scott Rehberg and Ed Ellis all spent at least 8 years in the NFL. I mean, what does that prove?


That's right, I also thought teams were crazy for giving huge money for GMs since they are so useless.
The Pats shouldn't worry about losing Pioli, since Belichick should be able to coach any street player into pro bowlers.

What did Parcells do that was so great? He does what he did with Miami this year. Takes a bunch of losers that won a couple games, then whips them into shape, and gets them to the playoffs. But does he ever take them all the way? No. He needed Belichick on his side to go to the SB. The Patriots were 5-11 before Belichick came on. Parcells is a great coach, but as a GM he has NEVER put together a Super Bowl champion. Belichick and Pioli have, despite the fact that both Belichick and Pioli are not the greatest drafters. It's all about coaching with the Patriots. That's been proven.

 

[RayClay]

Glenn busted for two reasons. He was injury prone. He had a fantastic rookie season, and would have been in the tops of that class (not a Marvin Harrison, obviously) if he weren't injured all the time.

He was too injured to play in his rookie season, remember? All of a sudden he could play like hell.

His major injury was to the cranium and emotional system.

Slowly, the path of Glenn's career changed. Nagging "uh-oh" incidents kept happening with him: a missed practice, an altercation at a nightclub, a failed drug test, skipped mini-camps, an incident where he allegedly urinated on a limousine, a week during the summer where nobody could find him, a "Nobody understands me" feature in the newspaper, a mysterious suspension ...

When it all fell apart for Glenn this summer -- allegations of domestic abuse, a potential court trial, a child custody trial, an endless dance between the team and Glenn's overmatched agent (Jim Gould) about Glenn returning his signing bonus, a missed drug test, a suspension by the league, a disappearance from training camp, a threat of suspension, and finally, last week, the Patriots shelving Glenn for the season -- there was a disarming lack of panic and dissent from Pats fans.

Maybe Bill asked around about the kid whose parents were gone or murdered. I don't have access to the psychological assessments you do, but it seems he was troubled...

It may not be such a bad thing that Terry Glenn has been arraigned on charges of assaulting the mother of his 5-year-old son, and of intimidating a witness.

"It may force everyone to confront the issue," said someone who has known Glenn since he first came to New England in 1996.

"It may get him to step up and do what needs to be done. Terry needs professional care. He's a troubled guy. He has a good heart, but he has real problems."

Terry Glenn has had problems since the day he was born.

He never knew his father. His mother was a drug addict, who was murdered when Glenn was 13. His relatives on his mother's side didn't want to take care of him, so Glenn wound up living with the family of a high school teammate.

...

"As long as he's on the field," said a man who has known Glenn since his college days at Ohio State, "everything's fine. It's when he gets off the field that his demons appear."

Is it any wonder, given his childhood, that Glenn has "demons?"

His mother was only 29 when she was murdered, just a few years older than Glenn is now.

He was used to her going out at all hours, leaving him and his 7-year-old sister alone _ sometimes for a day, or even two.

By the third day, we went to a relative's house and put out that she was missing. My sister and I felt all alone. We didn't have a father to turn to. Then the phone call came."

The call was from the police, saying Glenn's mother had been found in an abandoned building, beaten to death.

"He doesn't have the ability to put faith in anyone," said the man who has followed Glenn's NFL career in New England.

"He doesn't trust people easily," the other man said.

Isn't that understandable, given what Glenn has been through?

"Until Terry gets ongoing professional care, he's a time bomb," said one of the men close to Glenn. "But you can't deal with his problems until he's willing to deal with them. It's like with an alcoholic who keeps drinking. They often have to hit the lowest point before they start to come back up."

Hmmm maybe somebody with the experience and connections Parcells had saw some red flags that "report" missed.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-74682445.html

 

[upstater1]

He was too injured to play in his rookie season, remember? All of a sudden he could play like hell.

His major injury was to the cranium and emotional system.




Maybe Bill asked around about the kid whose parents were gone or murdered. I don't have access to the psychological assessments you do, but it seems he was troubled...




...








Hmmm maybe somebody with the experience and connections Parcells had saw some red flags that "report" missed.

Terry Glenn has known trouble all his life.(The Providence Journal) | Article from Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service | HighBeam Research

So you're saying Parcells could predict that Glenn was going to become a head case when Glenn was in college.

IS that right? Pretty funny stuff.

Especially when Parcells went out of his way to sign Glenn for the Cowboys and he talked him up.

Yeah, right, Parcells was worried about Glenn's mental health.

I gave you the quotes already in the Boston Globe where the Patriots thought Glenn was a high character guy, this was AFTER they went out to Columbus and before the draft.

Obviously, they were wrong, but we're talking about the draft here. Not what happened afterward. For 1996, the Glenn pick seemed like the best thing that could have happened to the Patriots. Certainly better than Derrick Mayes.

 

[RDS11]

BB would have gotten as much out of Katz as he did out of Faulk. You have to remember Katz came on under Belichick.

OK, I must admit I had a good laugh with that one ! You mean, you were able to see improvement in Katz play over the 3 games and 14 tackles he had under Belichick. Man, you must have looked at those 14 tackles often to say something like that !

Jeez, if you're going to include marginal guys like Brisby, Corwin B. and Slade, then don't you have to include Katzenmoyer, Sean Morey (who made big plays today), Tebucky Jones, Brandon Mitchell?

First, I don't count 7 in that year. I look at the 1997 draft and notice that Brandon Mitchell, Scott Rehberg and Ed Ellis all spent at least 8 years in the NFL. I mean, what does that prove?

That's the main reason why your draft analysis don't make any sense. You won't be able to get start player which each pick. But getting quality dept is as much important. There's 40 players active every game. Under Grier, there was too many thrownaway picks.

But, I don't put much stock in that stat anyway.

That's a great one ! It's easier to rewrite history that way.
So those drafts were bad because YOU say so ? The fact that 7 players had lenghty NFL career isn't important to you, so you just throw that away.

I said Glenn was the #1 player on the PATRIOTS board and the board of other teams. He was Denver's #1 as well.

So Glenn was the number 1 guy on the the board of a guy who selected Chris Canty with a number 1 pick. Big deal. And Denver draft history isn't that much better. Those guys selected Marcus Nash and Ashlee Lelie, Delta O'Neil & Willie Middlebrooks with 1st round draft picks.

We'll never really know what would have happened with Parcells in charge of the draft. But it's obvious the Pats could have worked the board. Glenn was selected #7 overall. The next wr was selected #18. There was some room to move down and still select Glenn if he trully was rated that high on the the Pats draft board.

What did Parcells do that was so great? He does what he did with Miami this year. Takes a bunch of losers that won a couple games, then whips them into shape, and gets them to the playoffs.

Again rewriting history, and again that doesn't make much sense. One of the greatest turnaround in NFL history gets overlooked, just because it doesn't prove your point.

Parcells did a complete overhaul of the roster, same as Belichick did in 2000 and into 2001. He wasn't the coach this year, so no, it's not all about coaching. The fact is that Parcells knows a thing or two about building a contender. Comparing Grier to Parcells is laughable, at the very best. Other great coaches have failed miserably when trying their luck with other teams. Ask Jimmy Johnson. Ask Holmgren. The great Bill Walsh was horrible in his 2nd go around with the Niners.
Parcells did it 4 times as the main guy.

 

[RayClay]

So you're saying Parcells could predict that Glenn was going to become a head case when Glenn was in college.

IS that right? Pretty funny stuff.

Especially when Parcells went out of his way to sign Glenn for the Cowboys and he talked him up.

Yeah, right, Parcells was worried about Glenn's mental health.

I gave you the quotes already in the Boston Globe where the Patriots thought Glenn was a high character guy, this was AFTER they went out to Columbus and before the draft.

Obviously, they were wrong, but we're talking about the draft here. Not what happened afterward. For 1996, the Glenn pick seemed like the best thing that could have happened to the Patriots. Certainly better than Derrick Mayes.

You said yourself Parcells freaked when forced to pick Glenn.

"As long as he's on the field," said a man who has known Glenn since his college days at Ohio State, "everything's fine. It's when he gets off the field that his demons appear."

Is it any wonder, given his childhood, that Glenn has "demons?"

His horrible childhood and insecurity was known.

Do you think it's a coincidence that BB and Parcells avoid drafting the worst character players?

Parcells was a "father" to the poor kid. That doesn't mean he'd intentionally spend the 7th on him.

Pick him up cheap knowing he's begging for the type of discipline Parcells gives, sure.

It's ridiculous, father left him, mother left him alone constantly, she's an addict who leaves again and four days later is found beaten to death. His relatives won't take him in.

"[My mother's death] made me stronger than most people my age, but it made me different, too," says Glenn. "I know I can never be totally happy. In the back of my mind I keep waiting for something bad to happen. Every time something good has happened, something bad has happened."

I guess the psycholgist thought none of that indicated the type of person who would drink and urinate in the middle of a limousine event, grope strange women, assault his wife in front of their 5 year old child, take of for weeks when he's supposed to be training with no word to anyone get violate the drug policy, get kicked off a championship team, show up on a live sports show high as a kite with mirror shades on spouting nonsense about D-I-D or whatever...

There's more, but you get the point. Maybe Parcells has connections in Ohio (duh). Maybe he should be a psychologist.

Record-setting first-year wideout Terry Glenn helped the - 12.16.96 - SI Vault

 

[upstater1]

OK, I must admit I had a good laugh with that one ! You mean, you were able to see improvement in Katz play over the 3 games and 14 tackles he had under Belichick. Man, you must have looked at those 14 tackles often to say something like that !


And INT returns for TD. He was flying all over the field. Of course he improved under BB. Yeah.


That's the main reason why your draft analysis don't make any sense. You won't be able to get start player which each pick. But getting quality dept is as much important. There's 40 players active every game. Under Grier, there was too many thrownaway picks.

I never said otherwise. Stop changing the subject. If we're looking for backups and role players, then why don't the players I mentioned qualify? We agreed that he only got a couple good players. But suddenly you want to expand the issue to considering players with NFL careers like Tebucky? You honestly can't see the difference? Of course Grier wasted picks, the point is so did Parcells. Stop being a Parcells brownnoser.



That's a great one ! It's easier to rewrite history that way.
So those drafts were bad because YOU say so ? The fact that 7 players had lenghty NFL career isn't important to you, so you just throw that away.

Listen, I'm done arguing with you because you're a little child. There weren't 7 players with lengthy careers, first of all. Second of all, I already showed you that Grier also had JAGs with lengthy NFL careers. So what? That doesn't make Grier a good talent evaluator. Go ahead, have the last word, you're a blowhard at this point, and you're the type of person that will argue this endlessly by distorting things when suddenly your lame point is proven faulty. You said guys with 7 years in the NFL, I showed you guys with 7 years in the NFL, and now suddenly you realize how dumb your point was because Grier had just as many JAGs. The key to a draft is finding players that make a difference, not JAGs.



So Glenn was the number 1 guy on the the board of a guy who selected Chris Canty with a number 1 pick. Big deal. And Denver draft history isn't that much better. Those guys selected Marcus Nash and Ashlee Lelie, Delta O'Neil & Willie Middlebrooks with 1st round draft picks.

The point is, Glenn was highly ranked. He wasn't a reach, as you say. And Charley Armey had Glenn at the top, and they had all ranked Glenn higher than many players from past drafts. He was productive in college, he on awards, and was a great pick at #7. The 1996 season validated whaqt the Patriots were doing in that draft.

We'll never really know what would have happened with Parcells in charge of the draft. But it's obvious the Pats could have worked the board. Glenn was selected #7 overall. The next wr was selected #18. There was some room to move down and still select Glenn if he trully was rated that high on the the Pats draft board.

Obviously you didn't read McDonough's article that had Parcells hell bent on selecting Cedric Jones, and otherwise dropping down and taking Clemons or Brackens. They would have taken a DE in the first round. No Super Bowl with Clemons as your DE.


/QUOTE]

I learned my lesson having a discussion with you. Never again. I gave plenty of newspaper articles to back up my point, and you ignore them. I used the exact same criteria to judge drafts as you did (first you said Grier had 4 players in his drafts, and I accepted that, because I thought we were only counting guys that had a big impact, not JAGs, and then you change to JAGs, and I do the same thing to make the comparison, and all you come back with is nonsense.)

Go ahead, have the last word. I'm not going to bother with someone that wants to argue just for the sake of argument.