Pete Carroll-what went wrong?

[RayClay]

As for the could-have-beens of the 1996 draft, yes the wide receivers were fantastic in retrospect. But other than Glenn and Harrison, none of them were ticketed for greatness. Glenn was

According to who, Bobby Grier?

Harrison 1,069

Owens 951

Muhammad 807

Moulds 764

Toomer 637

Engram 645

Horn 603

Glenn 593

Kennison 548

Horn and T.O. are head cases too, but i don't think they were kicked off a team on the way to a Super Bowl.

From what I remember, Kraft actually gave in to Parcells and agreed to take DE Cedric Jones with the Patriots' first round pick. Now THAT would have been a disaster.

So you know what players Kraft told Parcells to pick even though said player wasn't even available. Sorry, I don't have that inside access, I've never spoken to any of them.

 

[RayClay]

Kraft got wind of Parcells' phone calls with the Jets. FACT. This was why well before the Glenn draft Kraft went to Parcells and said he wanted him to sign an extension. It was only after that meeting that Kraft started moving Parcells out. In fact, Kraft took Parcells at that meeting because he installed the infamous BUYOUT clause. Parcells asked to shorten his contract because his batteries were on empty, and Kraft complied by putting in the rider saying if Parcells went to another team, he would have to buyout the contract. This was a huge issue because Parcells could have jumped to the Jets front office for a year and left the Patriots without the 4 picks, but it was the contract clause put in the contract AFTER Kraft figured Parcells was double-crossing him, that's what hung Parcells up from moving to the Jets.

As for Parcells, I have looked at his draft record. I have no idea why you think this is good:

1 4 Willie McGinest OLB USC
2 35 Kevin Lee WR Alabama
3 78 Ervin Collier DT Florida A&M
3 90 Joe Burch C Texas Southern
4 121 John Burke TE Virginia Tech
5 135 Pat O'Neill P Syracuse
6 166 Steve Hawkins WR Western Michigan
6 168 Max Lane T Navy
7 198 Jay Walker QB Howard
7 222 Marty Moore LB Kentucky

1993 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State
2 31 Chris Slade OLB Virginia
2 51 Todd Rucci T Penn State
2 56 Vincent Brisby WR Louisiana-Monroe
4 86 Kevin Johnson DT Texas Southern
4 110 Corwin Brown SS Michigan
5 113 Scott Sisson K Georgia Tech
5 138 Rich Griffith TE Arizona
6 142 Lawrence Hatch CB Florida
8 198 Troy Brown WR Marshall

Don't get me wrong, Parcells brought in Law, Ted Johnson and Martin the next year, but that's as good as Grier's Bruschi, Milloy, Glenn draft. otherwise, Parcells was getting one or two good players a year. Not good.

Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State
2 31 Chris Slade OLB Virginia
2 51 Todd Rucci T Penn State
2 56 Vincent Brisby WR Louisiana-Monroe

4 110 Corwin Brown SS Michigan

8 198 Troy Brown WR Marshall

That's a bad draft?

Why not show us the drafting genius of Bobby Grier when he was definitely choosing the groceries starting in 1997.

Remember he had a full complement both years plus and extra 3 +4 in 1997 and an extra 1, 2 and 3 in 1998.

How many of those players played in 2001?

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

As for Parcells, I have looked at his draft record. I have no idea why you think this is good:

1 4 Willie McGinest OLB USC
2 35 Kevin Lee WR Alabama
3 78 Ervin Collier DT Florida A&M
3 90 Joe Burch C Texas Southern
4 121 John Burke TE Virginia Tech
5 135 Pat O'Neill P Syracuse
6 166 Steve Hawkins WR Western Michigan
6 168 Max Lane T Navy
7 198 Jay Walker QB Howard
7 222 Marty Moore LB Kentucky

1993 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State
2 31 Chris Slade OLB Virginia
2 51 Todd Rucci T Penn State
2 56 Vincent Brisby WR Louisiana-Monroe
4 86 Kevin Johnson DT Texas Southern
4 110 Corwin Brown SS Michigan
5 113 Scott Sisson K Georgia Tech
5 138 Rich Griffith TE Arizona
6 142 Lawrence Hatch CB Florida
8 198 Troy Brown WR Marshall

Don't get me wrong, Parcells brought in Law, Ted Johnson and Martin the next year, but that's as good as Grier's Bruschi, Milloy, Glenn draft. otherwise, Parcells was getting one or two good players a year. Not good.

Interesting-here in Dallas, his draft record was only OK(at best). Yeah-he got some 2nd day steals like Barber, DE Chris Canty, Witten, ILB Bradie James, etc.

However-numerous of his picks have been awful, especially in the early rounds...

Julius Jones('04 top pick)

'06 1st rounder LB Bobby Carpenter

'05 1st rounder Marcus Spears

'06 2nd rounder Anthony Fasano

'06 2nd day Skyler Green

'03 2nd rounder C Al Johnson

'03 3rd rounder G Stephen Pederman

'04 2nd rounder RT Jacob Rogers(whom the scouts WARNED him not to touch)

Just to name a few...

As for Demarcus Ware-we ALMOST didn't get him b/c Jethro ended up talking Bill out of drafting Spears with the #10 overall(ultimately, Ware was our #10 and Spears was our #20 something that year).

As you can see though-he did a very poor job drafting the OL(which everyone thought was his specialty), which almost set us back until Jerry found some gems in FA like Leonard Davis and Marc Columbo.

 

[upstater1]

According to who, Bobby Grier?

Harrison 1,069

Owens 951

Muhammad 807

Moulds 764

Toomer 637

Engram 645

Horn 603

Glenn 593

Kennison 548

Horn and T.O. are head cases too, but i don't think they were kicked off a team on the way to a Super Bowl.



So you know what players Kraft told Parcells to pick even though said player wasn't even available. Sorry, I don't have that inside access, I've never spoken to any of them.

What are those numbers referring to? Receptions? In the NFL?

I said Glenn in college was one of the best 2 or 3 receivers of the last 20 years. He was Calvin Johnson good. He was Randy Moss good. What other evidence do you have to project him on? If it was evident Jerry Rice was going to be great based on his college production, why wasn't he picked early?

The last statement, what does it mean?

It was all over the newspapers and in a few of the books on the Patriots that Kraft decided to go with Parcells' pick over Grier's. When the Giants surprised by taking Cedric Jones, that's when Kraft took Grier's pick over Parcells', and then Parcells hit the roof, slammed the door, and left the draft room.

You didn't know this?

 

[upstater1]

I'd still take Marvin Harrison and Brackens. Or Eric Moulds, Brackens and a third. Or a combination of picks and the whatever deals for 1st, 2nds and 3rds you could make.

By the way, that was that nasty future Jets coach who was the only one to get anything out of the mentally unbalanced underachiever.

I do have to give you credit, you're the only Bobby Grier fan left as far as I know.

I'm not a Bobby Grier fan, nor am I a Parcells brown-nose suck-up. Read my post earlier in this thread that calls Grier's drafts disastrous.

 

[upstater1]

Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State
2 31 Chris Slade OLB Virginia
2 51 Todd Rucci T Penn State
2 56 Vincent Brisby WR Louisiana-Monroe

4 110 Corwin Brown SS Michigan

8 198 Troy Brown WR Marshall

That's a bad draft?

Why not show us the drafting genius of Bobby Grier when he was definitely choosing the groceries starting in 1997.

Remember he had a full complement both years plus and extra 3 +4 in 1997 and an extra 1, 2 and 3 in 1998.

How many of those players played in 2001?

Yes, it is, other than Troy Brown and Bledsoe. Of course Bledsoe was the #1 pick, but at least he wasn't Rick Mirer. I'm not defending Grier, I thought his drafts sucked, except for the 1996 draft which was really really good. I was just proving that Parcells' drafts sucked.

 

[upstater1]

Interesting-here in Dallas, his draft record was only OK(at best). Yeah-he got some 2nd day steals like Barber, DE Chris Canty, Witten, ILB Bradie James, etc.

However-numerous of his picks have been awful, especially in the early rounds...

Julius Jones('04 top pick)

'06 1st rounder LB Bobby Carpenter

'05 1st rounder Marcus Spears

'06 2nd rounder Anthony Fasano

'06 2nd day Skyler Green

'03 2nd rounder C Al Johnson

'03 3rd rounder G Stephen Pederman

'04 2nd rounder RT Jacob Rogers(whom the scouts WARNED him not to touch)

Just to name a few...

As for Demarcus Ware-we ALMOST didn't get him b/c Jethro ended up talking Bill out of drafting Spears with the #10 overall(ultimately, Ware was our #10 and Spears was our #20 something that year).

As you can see though-he did a very poor job drafting the OL(which everyone thought was his specialty), which almost set us back until Jerry found some gems in FA like Leonard Davis and Marc Columbo.

This doesn't surprise me at all. As far as I'm concerned, he's an excellent coach, especially at whipping a poor team into shape and giving them confidence. As a draft guy, he's bad. He wanted Giants' bust Cedric Jones at #7 in the draft, and thank God that didn't happen. Parcells, again, excels as a coach, though he had Belichick at his side in his successes. He also left the Jets high and dry, 31 picks yielded James Farrior, Leon Johnson, Jason Ferguson, Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas, that's it. 5 players, though it should be said he lost a #1 and 2 to New England. Still, 5 for 31 is poor.

One year his top two picks were Dorian Boose and Scott Frost. Blech.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

This doesn't surprise me at all. As far as I'm concerned, he's an excellent coach, especially at whipping a poor team into shape and giving them confidence. As a draft guy, he's bad. He wanted Giants' bust Cedric Jones at #7 in the draft, and thank God that didn't happen. Parcells, again, excels as a coach, though he had Belichick at his side in his successes. He also left the Jets high and dry, 31 picks yielded James Farrior, Leon Johnson, Jason Ferguson, Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas, that's it. 5 players, though it should be said he lost a #1 and 2 to New England. Still, 5 for 31 is poor.

One year his top two picks were Dorian Boose and Scott Frost. Blech.

Which is why it'll be interesting how the Fins do next year-I think their '08 draft was pretty good under him, but if he keeps up his erratic draft record, he'll likely drive the Fins into the ground as well. It's not like noodle-arm Pennington is getting any younger either.

 

[RDS11]

As for the could-have-beens of the 1996 draft, yes the wide receivers were fantastic in retrospect. But other than Glenn and Harrison, none of them were ticketed for greatness. Glenn was actually one of the top 2 or 3 receivers I've ever seen in college.

I said Glenn in college was one of the best 2 or 3 receivers of the last 20 years. He was Calvin Johnson good. He was Randy Moss good.

No he wasn't. Not even close. He wasn't even the best receiver THAT YEAR!!! Keyshawn went first overall. At the spot he was selected, everybody thought he was a reach. Glenn had only started for 1 season at Ohio State, was coming out early, and had been a walk-on at Ohio State. Harrison was rated above Glenn.

Huh? Have you even read my posts in this thread saying Grier was a terrible drafter? Bizarre.

As for Parcells, I have looked at his draft record. I have no idea why you think this is good:

OK, so Grier was bad, Parcells was bad, Carroll was bad...but the Pats went to the Super Bowl and average 10 wins a year from 1996 to 1998. Yeah, that makes sense to me.

So was Pete Carroll. Canned, and then we won.

I don't get your point...Obviously, by your own opinion, Carroll had a terrible roster to work with, provided by Parcells and Grier. But still, he managed to get that team always above 500. Not bad. Statistics wise, Carroll's 1997 Pats did as good as Parcells in 1996 and Carroll's 1999 team was way better than 2000 Belichick Pats. So what now ? He didn't have any power over personnel decision, do you blame him for that ?

 

[RDS11]

Yes, it is, other than Troy Brown and Bledsoe.

See again you're not making sense...on a previous post you said Rucci started in the Super Bowl and provided a good numbers of services to the Pats, and now you are saying that the 93 draft (Rucci's draft) was bad except for Bledsoe and Brown.

I guess that applies to the 1994 draft also, which produced your good friend Lane ! Not a good draft by your standard other than McGinest, yet Grier giving Lane an enormous contract following the 1997 season was a good move.

 

[RDS11]

Kraft got wind of Parcells' phone calls with the Jets. FACT.

Yes, during Super Bowl week. What this has to do with the 1996 draft ?
Check your FACT

 

[RayClay]

What are those numbers referring to? Receptions? In the NFL?

I said Glenn in college was one of the best 2 or 3 receivers of the last 20 years. He was Calvin Johnson good. He was Randy Moss good. What other evidence do you have to project him on?

It was all over the newspapers and in a few of the books on the Patriots that Kraft decided to go with Parcells' pick over Grier's. When the Giants surprised by taking Cedric Jones, that's when Kraft took Grier's pick over Parcells', and then Parcells hit the roof, slammed the door, and left the draft room.

Yes, in the NFL. Parcells had some pretty good experience projecting players in the NFL did Grier or Kraft?

It was all over the newspapers and in a few of the books on the Patriots that Kraft decided to go with Parcells' pick over Grier's. When the Giants surprised by taking Cedric Jones, that's when Kraft took Grier's pick over Parcells', and then Parcells hit the roof, slammed the door, and left the draft room.

Parcell's said they had agreed to take a defensive player. He said lineman at first, then changed it. In the same article, Price's book quoting Parcell's book, he said there was a disagreement on christian Peter meaning there was no disagreement on Milloy or Bruschi. All you need to do is look who built the Patriots defense and who picked Chris Canty in the first round to guess who made those picks and who just agreed.

The one offensive player picked in the first round in New England under Parcells' watch was wide receiver Terry Glenn in 1996. Parcells actually preferred Texas defensive end Tony Brackens, who wound up going on the 33rd overall selection in the second round to the Jacksonville Jaguars, but he got overruled on the pick.

Parcells' defensive history may reveal Dolphins' pick

Apparently Adam Schefter says it was Brackens too. Maybe Parcells condensed it for the sake of the story It wouldn't be the firs time, ask Willie Clay. I doubt he was spending a 7th on a second round pick so maybe he meant trade down for defense. Who knows? Apparently not all those writers.

 

[RayClay]

Interesting-here in Dallas, his draft record was only OK(at best). Yeah-he got some 2nd day steals like Barber, DE Chris Canty, Witten, ILB Bradie James, etc.

However-numerous of his picks have been awful, especially in the early rounds...

Julius Jones('04 top pick)

'06 1st rounder LB Bobby Carpenter

'05 1st rounder Marcus Spears

'06 2nd rounder Anthony Fasano

'06 2nd day Skyler Green

'03 2nd rounder C Al Johnson

'03 3rd rounder G Stephen Pederman

'04 2nd rounder RT Jacob Rogers(whom the scouts WARNED him not to touch)

Just to name a few...

As for Demarcus Ware-we ALMOST didn't get him b/c Jethro ended up talking Bill out of drafting Spears with the #10 overall(ultimately, Ware was our #10 and Spears was our #20 something that year).

As you can see though-he did a very poor job drafting the OL(which everyone thought was his specialty), which almost set us back until Jerry found some gems in FA like Leonard Davis and Marc Columbo.

I'm not saying he was a draft wizard. His record of building teams isn't questioned by this time, I hope. Jerry Jones is a pretty meddlesome owner too.

The point is, handing authority over from any football man ever, to an incompetent hack like Grier is ample reason to leave a team. The way he did it was wrong and I never said he wasn't an Ahole.

Glenn was known to be a problem, drafting WRs high isn't a great strategy anyway (hello Lions) and there were so many excellent WRs available I don't think drafting one with psychological problems that high was the best move. Until proven otherwise (and I severely doubt Parcells gives anyone his draft strategy) I assume Parcells saw lots of better options which is why he blew up.

 

[upstater1]

Yes, during Super Bowl week. What this has to do with the 1996 draft ?
Check your FACT

No, this happened in 1995 immediately after the playoffs. That's why he went to Parcells with the contract extension. This was the famous meeting where Kraft took Parcells by adding a rider to the contract in exchange for getting rid of he buyout clause, and Parcells was fuming a year later because he knew that Kraft snookered him.

 

[upstater1]

No he wasn't. Not even close. He wasn't even the best receiver THAT YEAR!!! Keyshawn went first overall. At the spot he was selected, everybody thought he was a reach. Glenn had only started for 1 season at Ohio State, was coming out early, and had been a walk-on at Ohio State. Harrison was rated above Glenn.

No, nobody thought he was a reach. He was projected as the second or third best player in the draft. He dropped to the Patriots. He was better than Keyshawn in college, and I'm not the only one who thought so, since Glenn was voted better than Keyshawn. Keyshawn had size over him, that's it. Glenn was incredible at Ohio State. Here, refresh your memory:

YouTube - Terry Glenn Ohio State Highlights


OK, so Grier was bad, Parcells was bad, Carroll was bad...but the Pats went to the Super Bowl and average 10 wins a year from 1996 to 1998. Yeah, that makes sense to me.

You like to confuse things don't you? What doesn't make sense is that you can't get things straight. The very post above yours says, "Parcells was a great coach, especially with Belichick." It's not my fault that your brain is addled because you're confusing things. The Patriots went to the Super Bowl in 1996 because of Parcells and Belichick, not because of Parcells' great drafts (his early drafts sucked, his 1995 draft was great, Grier's 1996 draft was great) and that plus the coaching sent them to the Super Bowl. Then Grier came and had sucky drafts, then Carroll came and he was a sucky coach. What more do you need to know?



I don't get your point...Obviously, by your own opinion, Carroll had a terrible roster to work with, provided by Parcells and Grier. But still, he managed to get that team always above 500. Not bad. Statistics wise, Carroll's 1997 Pats did as good as Parcells in 1996 and Carroll's 1999 team was way better than 2000 Belichick Pats. So what now ? He didn't have any power over personnel decision, do you blame him for that ?

Belichick gutted the roster. Please. You're one of the few Patriots' fans I've met who is still sticking up for Mr. Pump'd'n'Jack'd. He lost all respect from his players as his team devolved. They got worse each and every season.

 

[upstater1]

See again you're not making sense...on a previous post you said Rucci started in the Super Bowl and provided a good numbers of services to the Pats, and now you are saying that the 93 draft (Rucci's draft) was bad except for Bledsoe and Brown.

I guess that applies to the 1994 draft also, which produced your good friend Lane ! Not a good draft by your standard other than McGinest, yet Grier giving Lane an enormous contract following the 1997 season was a good move.

You're right about Rucci. Missed him. Never said Lane was any good. I said the contracts weren't enormous, and they weren't. Around the same time, the Giants gave Ron Stone a $5 million contract, and he was a back-up on another team. Lane got 2/5ths of that, and Rucci got half of it. Grier overpaid, but that wasn't even part of the reason I was talking about Rucci and Lane at all. I was arguing the insinuation that the Patriots were in salary cap trouble and couldn't afford to keep Curtis Martin. I wasn't defending the Lane signing on its own. I was saying that the reason the Patriots lost Martin was because of the poison pill, not because they signed Max Lane to a $2 million dollar contract.

Do you really believe those early drafts by Parcells were good?

 

[upstater1]

Yes, in the NFL. Parcells had some pretty good experience projecting players in the NFL did Grier or Kraft?


Well, we obviously disagree on this since Parcells was a bad drafter. In retrospect, that draft was a bounty of WRs, but really how could anyone have known? Look at the WR drafts before or since. Nothing like that has ever happened. Harrison, I will give you. They could have grabbed him and been pretty sure they had a solid WR on their hands, since he proved it in college and his measurables were terrific. I would have been very happy with him, even though Terry Glenn was the one I really wanted. But Eric Moulds and some of the others were not the locks the first 3 were. As for Kraft, he went with Grier because, for the 100th time, Parcells was a short-timer. I doubt Kraft preferred Glenn over Harrison, or whatever. Maybe he did, I don't know.

Parcell's said they had agreed to take a defensive player. He said lineman at first, then changed it. In the same article, Price's book quoting Parcell's book, he said there was a disagreement on christian Peter meaning there was no disagreement on Milloy or Bruschi. All you need to do is look who built the Patriots defense and who picked Chris Canty in the first round to guess who made those picks and who just agreed.

Parcells' book? Uh, what about the articles by Will McD before and after the draft? The scenario in that book makes no sense because the Patriots went into convulsions during that draft day AFTER the Giants picked Cedric Jones. Everything was calm until then. As soon as Jones was picked, the fight began. Parcells wanted to trade down, Grier wanted Terry Glenn, and Parcells went ballistic when Kraft chose Grier's side. If the Patriots were not going to go with Jones, then that blow-up wouldn't have happened at that point in time, because they would have ALREADY been preparing to take Glenn and/or trade down. It was only AFTER the Giants chose Jones that Kraft/Parcells had their blow-out. This tells me that the report in the papers is true, that Kraft agreed to take Cedric Jones as per Parcells' request. I'm not sure it's a big deal at all, though, but certainly, taking Jones there would have been much much worse than taking Glenn. Parcells did this same thing with the Giants when he wanted a LB that flamed out in the NFL over Rodney Hampton, and was overruled, which started the bad blood in New York as well. It seems that Parcells came back into the room to make the Christian Peter pick. Do you know when he came in? Did he come in a couple hours later for the Milloy pick? More than that? I dunno.


Parcells' defensive history may reveal Dolphins' pick

Apparently Adam Schefter says it was Brackens too. Maybe Parcells condensed it for the sake of the story It wouldn't be the firs time, ask Willie Clay. I doubt he was spending a 7th on a second round pick so maybe he meant trade down for defense. Who knows? Apparently not all those writers.

Will McDonough knew. I read it in the Globe. And yes, Parcells said he wanted to trade down to take Brackens. But this was AFTER the Giants selected Jones, as I've said. There were reporters there that actually saw Parcells slam the door to the room and storm out, so it's not like the timing of this was a secret-even though the conversations themselves may have been. When Borges wrote McDonough's obituary he described the blowout as happening AFTER the Jones pick. So, the fight at that point was over whether they should trade down or pick Glenn.

 

[upstater1]

I'm not saying he was a draft wizard. His record of building teams isn't questioned by this time, I hope. Jerry Jones is a pretty meddlesome owner too.

The point is, handing authority over from any football man ever, to an incompetent hack like Grier is ample reason to leave a team. The way he did it was wrong and I never said he wasn't an Ahole.

Glenn was known to be a problem, drafting WRs high isn't a great strategy anyway (hello Lions) and there were so many excellent WRs available I don't think drafting one with psychological problems that high was the best move. Until proven otherwise (and I severely doubt Parcells gives anyone his draft strategy) I assume Parcells saw lots of better options which is why he blew up.

Glenn busted for two reasons. He was injury prone. He had a fantastic rookie season, and would have been in the tops of that class (not a Marvin Harrison, obviously) if he weren't injured all the time. By the time he was under Belichick, he had become a big problem.

Parcells wanted Cedric Jones. If they had gone with Jones, they wouldn't have made the Super Bowl. And who knows what would have been made of Parcells' reputation.

 

[RDS11]

Parcells' book? Uh, what about the articles by Will McD before and after the draft?

Parcells book was written by Will McDonough.

No, nobody thought he was a reach.

Yes, Patriots Football Weekly and Lindy's among others.

Do you really believe those early drafts by Parcells were good?

I happen to believe the 1993 was OK and the 1995 draft might have been one of the best ever. The top 3 picks might have make it to the hall of fame if it wasn't for Johnson's concussions. The 1994 draft was bad, other than McGinest.

Parcells had to do something good personnel wise, since the 1992 team was horrible, and he took the Pats to the playoffs 2 years later.

I won't say Parcells is a draft guru. Over time, everybody is going to get bad drafts. But he went to 5 team and rebuild them over 2 years. Nobody else has done that in the history of the NFL. Not even Belichick. The guy must know something about players...

Please. You're one of the few Patriots' fans I've met who is still sticking up for Mr. Pump'd'n'Jack'd

Please, instead of jumping to your guns, read what I said. Between Grier and Carroll, Grier is the one who destroyed a pretty good team. Carroll was stuck with the players Grier provided him. It is not fair to judge Carroll over the bad decision Grier did. Carroll's team did pretty good when compared to Parcells'. True, Carroll had lost control in the end, but with Grier overruling suspensions Carroll had given, it's nothing to get a good credibility with the players.

People always like to judge players based on potential, even if the production is not there to back it up. Like you with Glenn. But as Parcells used to say, you are what your record says you are. Stats don't lie. And Carroll Pats teams were always above 500 and in the top half statistics wise.

Go read Coldhardfootballfacts.com. You'll learn a thing or 2 about football.

Belichick gutted the roster.

My point exactly. Grier did a mess, Belichick had to clean it up. But in 1999 Carroll had to work with a team heading for disaster. The core of the teams was older and nobody was brought in to replace those aging players. Bad drafts and huge contracts given to average players are usually taking a team down pretty fast. I'm just saying it's not fair to judge Carroll over that.

 

[RayClay]

So, the fight at that point was over whether they should trade down or pick Glenn.

As a body of work, no one would say Grier had better draft judgment than Parcells, which was my point.

If you want to isolate one pick and say you know for sure Parcells would have picked Jones, fine. No one individual pick proves anything.

So, the fight at that point was over whether they should trade down or pick Glenn.

If you concede that, you make my point completely. You can come up with a dozen scenarios where we get a more accomplished, more emotionally stable receiver and a high pick or two thrown in.

At the time they were picking, Grier didn't exploit the value of the pick because he didn't evaluate the draftboard as well as Parcells.