Pete Carroll-what went wrong?

[upstater1]

You said yourself Parcells freaked when forced to pick Glenn.

And? What does that have to do with anything? He didn't freak because he thought Glenn was mentally deficient. He freaked because Glenn wasn't his defensive lineman.

His horrible childhood and insecurity was known.

Do you think it's a coincidence that BB and Parcells avoid drafting the worst character players?

Uh, like Christian Peter?

Parcells was a "father" to the poor kid. That doesn't mean he'd intentionally spend the 7th on him.

Pick him up cheap knowing he's begging for the type of discipline Parcells gives, sure.

It's ridiculous, father left him, mother left him alone constantly, she's an addict who leaves again and four days later is found beaten to death. His relatives won't take him in.



I guess the psycholgist thought none of that indicated the type of person who would drink and urinate in the middle of a limousine event, grope strange women, assault his wife in front of their 5 year old child, take of for weeks when he's supposed to be training with no word to anyone get violate the drug policy, get kicked off a championship team, show up on a live sports show high as a kite with mirror shades on spouting nonsense about D-I-D or whatever...

There's more, but you get the point. Maybe Parcells has connections in Ohio (duh). Maybe he should be a psychologist.

Record-setting first-year wideout Terry Glenn helped the - 12.16.96 - SI Vault

I'm not even sure what you're railing against here. I agree with you that he turned out to b a head case. How could anyone argue otherwise? I'm talking about going back to the 196 draft. I already provided the newspaper articles and quotes where the Patriots talked about evaluating Glenn and saying he was a high character player BECAUSE of what he went through and how he came out.

What impressed them? A couple things. He worked at Ohio Stadium to bring some income. He walked-on at OSU and paid the tuition for the first year so that he wouldn't leave his sister (who was similarly traumatized). he had BCS scholarships elsewhere. He was studious and did well in school.

They thought of him as a guy that had overcome his past. Obviously, in the first year, they thought they had made the right decision about his character. Later, not so much. That being said, I don't see Glenn as being any different than the vast majority of NFL guys from a rough upbringing. Lot of guys in the league like him. Our own Richard Seymour has a rough family story. Glenn flaked out, no doubt, but injuries played a part, and he did have decent seasons (never like 1996) both under Belichick in 2000 and then he had more in Dallas as well.

He finished with approx 600 receptions and 9000 yards. Which is not bad when compared to Kennison. Obviously not near Harrison the Hall-of-Famer.

Yes, you're right we never would have known what would have happened otherwise, but you have to admit, there was a possibility of ending up with Clemons and Kennison/Mayes who were the next guys after Harrison on the board.

 

[RDS11]

Do you think it's a coincidence that BB and Parcells avoid drafting the worst character players?

Uh, like Christian Peter?

Exactly ! Parcells was so not so impresed with that pick either. Peter was cut a week after the draft. What's your point ?

I never said otherwise. Stop changing the subject. If we're looking for backups and role players, then why don't the players I mentioned qualify?

Because they are important. I never said anything against the players you mentioned. The fact is the roster went bad over 3 years, because Grier was unable to find more quality players that he lost. You can argue all day, the fact is 13 of the Pats 22 starters from the 1999 team were not in the NFL 2 years later.

Listen, I'm done arguing with you because you're a little child. Go ahead, have the last word, you're a blowhard at this point, and you're the type of person that will argue this endlessly by distorting things when suddenly your lame point is proven faulty.

So what, you're obviously wrong about Parcells and don't have any good arguments. Your hatred for him is so big you can't see the facts.
I mean, you have pretty much run against 2 others members, with your opinion over facts and then insulted us when you were short of arguments.

You provided some quotes here and there and insulted everyone over that when they did not agree with you, referring to said quotes. I present you solid numbers, and your counterpoint is calling names ?

You said guys with 7 years in the NFL, I showed you guys with 7 years in the NFL, and now suddenly you realize how dumb your point was because Grier had just as many JAGs.

First of all, no you did not. You gave me 4 names over 4 drafts while I gave you 7 names over 1 draft. And Katz, one of the guy you included, played in 24 games. From 1993, 7 guys played more than 85 NFL games. No Grier draft come even close to that.
New England Patriots All-Time Draft Listing - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Again, you can't expect every 6th round pick like Brady to come in and become a key player. But you need some 5th and 6th round players to come in and be valuable. If you dismiss Corwin Brown and Rich Griffith careers, you dismiss 2 very good special teamers. Griffith was one of the best long snappers in the league for a few years. You need those guys too.

Stop being a Parcells brownnoser.

I'm just pointing out the obvious. Parcells has a much better record than Grier. Parcells rebuilt 4 teams, Grier took the first down and wasn't able to bring the second one to 1 winning season.

 

[RayClay]

I'm not even sure what you're railing against here. I agree with you that he turned out to b a head case. How could anyone argue otherwise? I'm talking about going back to the 196 draft. I already provided the newspaper articles and quotes where the Patriots talked about evaluating Glenn and saying he was a high character player BECAUSE of what he went through and how he came out.

What impressed them? A couple things. He worked at Ohio Stadium to bring some income. He walked-on at OSU and paid the tuition for the first year so that he wouldn't leave his sister (who was similarly traumatized). he had BCS scholarships elsewhere. He was studious and did well in school.

They thought of him as a guy that had overcome his past. Obviously, in the first year, they thought they had made the right decision about his character. Later, not so much. That being said, I don't see Glenn as being any different than the vast majority of NFL guys from a rough upbringing. Lot of guys in the league like him. Our own Richard Seymour has a rough family story. Glenn flaked out, no doubt, but injuries played a part, and he did have decent seasons (never like 1996) both under Belichick in 2000 and then he had more in Dallas as well.

He finished with approx 600 receptions and 9000 yards. Which is not bad when compared to Kennison. Obviously not near Harrison the Hall-of-Famer.

Yes, you're right we never would have known what would have happened otherwise, but you have to admit, there was a possibility of ending up with Clemons and Kennison/Mayes who were the next guys after Harrison on the board.

He didn't "turn out to be a head case", he was a troubled and not well adjusted youth due to about the most horrible childhood I have ever seen. (I grew up in the suburbs).

Anyone who did a background check would know this. Doesn't prevent him overcoming it, but might send a red flag "This draft is considered one of the best draft classes ever for the position of wide receiver." 1996 nfl draft wiki

You actually can't read Parcells mind. You don't have a catalog of his thoughts. You don't know every reason behind his thinking.

Parcells is very thorough and as well connected as anyone in football. All it would have taken was a phone call to a coach that knew a coach or teacher in Ohio that told Glenn's story. How many walk ons get drafted #7? Plenty of unusual circumstances with him and Parcells talks to people all over the country Pro, colleg and high school.

Psychologists have a word for your attitude about this draft. You are in denial. Compiling stacks of only opinions you like and disregarding others is still just stacking opinions.

Writers have listed 3 or 4 ways Parcells wanted to go, but you still take the opinions or hearsay that agree with you as fact. Parcells was pissed because an incompetent was overruling him. No one knows for sure what kind of pick or deals Parcells would have made if he wasn't coopted. He probably doesn't know himself, since this whole process prevented him from operating as he had under Orthwein.

 

[upstater1]

He didn't "turn out to be a head case", he was a troubled and not well adjusted youth due to about the most horrible childhood I have ever seen. (I grew up in the suburbs).

Anyone who did a background check would know this. Doesn't prevent him overcoming it, but might send a red flag "This draft is considered one of the best draft classes ever for the position of wide receiver." 1996 nfl draft wiki


They did a background check on him. They declared him very high character. Why? Because he never got into trouble despite his harsh upbringing. Instead, he went to school, was a good student, cared for his sister, walked-on at OSU. That's why the Patriots declared him high character.

You actually can't read Parcells mind. You don't have a catalog of his thoughts. You don't know every reason behind his thinking.

Huh? Where did I say I could read his mind? The most I said was that he was going defense with Cedric Jones, and then trading down afterward. And I showed you what I based that on. The fact is, the names associated with Parcells and his preference for defense do not leave me wanting more. Glenn had a better career in the end than any of the guys Parcells wanted for defense.

Parcells is very thorough and as well connected as anyone in football. All it would have taken was a phone call to a coach that knew a coach or teacher in Ohio that told Glenn's story. How many walk ons get drafted #7? Plenty of unusual circumstances with him and Parcells talks to people all over the country Pro, colleg and high school.

Oh, did Parcells do that with Christian Peter? If he's so connected, did he know he had a headcase on his hands? The fact is, Glenn's coaches spoke very well of him. They loved the kid at Ohio State. He was a walk-on who wanted to stay local close to his family. He had plenty of BCS offers out of high school.

Psychologists have a word for your attitude about this draft. You are in denial. Compiling stacks of only opinions you like and disregarding others is still just stacking opinions.


What did I disregard? And these weren't "opinions," they were reports, reports of what went down--minute-by-minute accounts from eye witnesses in the draft room--, reports from people who talked to several teams about their draft boards. I haven't cited any "opinions," just people who reported what they saw, and if Kraft was lying about Armey tipping toward terry glenn, you'd think that would have come out. The Patriots spent a whole day with Terry Glenn 3 weeks before the draft to test him out mentally, and they came back by saying, "He's very high character."

Writers have listed 3 or 4 ways Parcells wanted to go, but you still take the opinions or hearsay that agree with you as fact. Parcells was pissed because an incompetent was overruling him. No one knows for sure what kind of pick or deals Parcells would have made if he wasn't coopted. He probably doesn't know himself, since this whole process prevented him from operating as he had under Orthwein.

What hearsay? Where are you getting that? Every writer I read agreed that Parcells was targeting Cedric Jones, and then Clemons and Brackens. Why is that hearsay?

In fact, Borges reported in the paper in his elegy for colleague Will McDonough that McD chided Borges in the draft room for what he wrote that morning. Borges wrote that McD greeted him by saying, "So who lied to you?" Borges kidded him back, "I think someone is lying to you?" Borges then described what McD had been told (obviously by Parcells). That they were going for Jones, and if he wasn't there they planned on trading down for Clemons or Brackens, with a look to taking a receiver like Mayes or Engram in the second round. The only other two guys with first round grades were Harrison and Kennison, but according to Borges/McD the Patriots were going defense first in the first round. When McDonough saw the pick, his jaw dropped, then he congratulated Borges on scooping him.

 

[RayClay]

In fact, Borges reported in the paper in his elegy for colleague Will McDonough that McD chided Borges in the draft room for what he wrote that morning. Borges wrote that McD greeted him by saying, "So who lied to you?" Borges kidded him back, "I think someone is lying to you?" Borges then described what McD had been told (obviously by Parcells). That they were going for Jones, and if he wasn't there they planned on trading down for Clemons or Brackens, with a look to taking a receiver like Mayes or Engram in the second round. The only other two guys with first round grades were Harrison and Kennison, but according to Borges/McD the Patriots were going defense first in the first round. When McDonough saw the pick, his jaw dropped, then he congratulated Borges on scooping him.

I read they were going after Kevin Hardy too, but what does it matter? I take what these guys say with a grain of salt, you take it as gospel.

Let's end it on that note. You can always trust Borges to tell the whole truth without an agenda, so that seals it.

Grier knows much more than Parcells.

Parcells thought Glenn was the best pick at that spot, but wanted some defensive player just to be annoying.

 

[upstater1]

I read they were going after Kevin Hardy too, but what does it matter? I take what these guys say with a grain of salt, you take it as gospel.

Let's end it on that note. You can always trust Borges to tell the whole truth without an agenda, so that seals it.

Grier knows much more than Parcells.

Parcells thought Glenn was the best pick at that spot, but wanted some defensive player just to be annoying.

They tried to trade up for Hardy, apparently. But I was talking about the decision to take Glenn after Cedric Jones was taken.

Apparently, you believe Mannix, McD, Borges were all lying about what happened in the draft room. Even though their stories converge perfectly. You also believed that Borges lied about his colleague in his elegy to him when he died. Apparently, McDonough never said, "Who lied to you?" No, Borges made that up (of course, he is known to do that sort of thing).

Never said Parcells wanted Glenn at that spot. Where do you get that? Absurd. I've been saying the exact opposite throughout here. I said he wanted defense at that spot.

 

[RDS11]

Oh, did Parcells do that with Christian Peter? If he's so connected, did he know he had a headcase on his hands? The fact is, Glenn's coaches spoke very well of him. They loved the kid at Ohio State. He was a walk-on who wanted to stay local close to his family. He had plenty of BCS offers out of high school.

Maybe because Parcells had nothing to do with the Peter pick ? It's well known he left the room after the first pick, so he wasn't around for the 5th round pick. Peter ended up being cut after 1 week, and Kraft had to publicly apologize for drafting a rapist. The guys who drafted Peter are the same guys who did the background check on Glenn.

The Peter pick is a good indication Grier was not in the right place.

 

[upstater1]

Maybe because Parcells had nothing to do with the Peter pick ? It's well known he left the room after the first pick, so he wasn't around for the 5th round pick. Peter ended up being cut after 1 week, and Kraft had to publicly apologize for drafting a rapist. The guys who drafted Peter are the same guys who did the background check on Glenn.

The Peter pick is a good indication Grier was not in the right place.

Oh, really?

Imagine Peter's delight when he picked up the phone on April 21 and heard Parcells on the other end of the line seconds after he was selected. Peter was a budding football prospect in northern New Jersey when the New York Giants won their two Super Bowls. Parcells had coached those two teams, and Peter was a big fan.

Worcester Sunday telegram, April 26, 1996, writer: Williamson:

My favorite ridiculous rationalization offered by the New England Patriots after they drafted the very un-Christian Christian Peter was delivered last week by coach Bill Parcells:

"I think, once he gets in a good, solid structure, everything will be fine," Parcells told reporters.

Boston Herald, April 26, 1996: Writer: Gee:

And the day after the draft, Myra Kraft, Bob's wife, read in Joel Buchsbaum's draft guide about Peter's assault rap. She did so in the presence of the Herald's George Kimball.

But as Parcells himself said last week, "They're not all choir boys in this league, in case you haven't noticed."

Globe, April 25, 1996: Writer: Borges:

Both coach Bill Parcells and Grier said they had also been influenced by the recommendation of Nebraska coach Tom Osborne.

Globe, April 25, 1996: Writer: Shaughnessy:

But that doesn't wash with what Grier said three days earlier, after drafting Peter. "We were well aware of his off-field problems. We did our normal investigation," Grier said. "We know that this is a little bit of a controversial pick for us, but Peter understands what this organization stands for, that we're not going to stand for any of those shenanigans off the field or anything that's going to put a bad light on this franchise or the community."

As recently as Sunday, coach Bill Parcells was defending the jerk. "I think once he gets in a good, solid structure, everything will be fine," the coach said. "I know {Nebraska coach Tom} Osborne very well myself, having known him since 1964."

May 6, 1996, Sports Illustrated, Writer: Peter King:

Kraft asked scouts in the draft room why Peter had not been picked and was told, 'He's had some problems, but we met with him and we feel good about him.' " There was a discussion among Kraft, Grier, Armey and coach Bill Parcells before Grier selected Peter. "It was an organizational pick," said Parcells, who before the draft talked with Nebraska coach Tom Osborne about Peter.

Grier, Parcells, Armey, all picked Peter together. Parcells called Peter seconds after the pick. They knew what they were getting. They defended the pick immediately thereafter, especially Grier and Parcells. Parcells had talked to Tom Osborne and gotten a good recommendation. Myra Kraft a day later did some digging, in front of the press corp, and before you knew it the entire organization was backtracking, including Kraft, Grier and Parcells. They all said they didn't know. That wasn't the truth. Tell me how I'm wrong in reading the above quotes.

 

[RDS11]

Oh, really?

Yes indeed :

The Blueprint: How the New England ... - Google Book Search

Parcells - Google Book Search

Parcells wasn't involved into drafting Peter. He did the good soldier during the press conference following the draft.

The only source you provided that might say Parcells was involved is Ron Borges. We all know has his own agenda.

 

[upstater1]

The only source you provided that might say Parcells was involved is Ron Borges. We all know has his own agenda.

The only source?

I'm sorry I ever responded to you in the first place.

Sources: Williamson, Borges, Shaughnessy, Gee, Peter King, and, Christian Peter HIMSELF.

Pretty weird that Peter was quoted as saying Parcells called him seconds after he was picked.

Parcells maybe just wanted to have a chat with the young man, not knowing the Patriots had selected him. :singing:

 

[upstater1]

Yes indeed :

The Blueprint: How the New England ... - Google Book Search

Can you even follow your own link? Jeez.

That says nothing about Parcells having nothing to do with selecting Peter. All that says is that the Peter pick was a source of contention, as in, Grier, Armey and Parcells thought his character issues were behind him, and Kraft had egg on his face when Myra gave him marching orders.

The next link by Gary Myers claims Parcells had nothing to do with selecting the picks after Glenn. You believe that? I have agreed in posts to RayClay that Parcells must have come back into the room (although I have never read anyone write about exactly when). Was he there when Milloy was picked? Bruschi? The fact is, King reported that Peter was the choice of all three men, Parcells phoned Christian Peter after he was selected, and then immediately thereafter defended the pick to the media. Days later when Peter was cut, Parcells and Grier claimed ignorance (though they had earlier mentioned talking to Tom Osborne) and Parcells said "it was an organizational pick."

So you believe Myers reporting (he assumed Parcells slammed the door and never came back) over everyone else, including Christian Peter, Grier, Parcells himself, Shaughnessy, Gee, Williamson, Borges?

I mean, don't bother answering that. It's perfectly obvious you like to argue just for the sake of arguing. If you still think your argument is credible despite all the evidence, you can continue on in blissful ignorance.

 

[RDS11]

That says nothing about Parcells having nothing to do with selecting Peter. All that says is that the Peter pick was a source of contention, as in, Grier, Armey and Parcells thought his character issues were behind him, and Kraft had egg on his face when Myra gave him marching orders.

Eh ?
The situation is compared to the Glenn pick, on which Kraft and Parcells didn't agree on and Parcells was overruled.

You're such a good reader, explain to me how this is supposed to prove Parcells is behind the Peter pick :

Worcester Sunday telegram, April 26, 1996, writer: Williamson:
Quote:
My favorite ridiculous rationalization offered by the New England Patriots after they drafted the very un-Christian Christian Peter was delivered last week by coach Bill Parcells:

"I think, once he gets in a good, solid structure, everything will be fine," Parcells told reporters.

I'll agree with Ray, you just take what fits your opinion and leave the rest out. The quotes you provided are not better than mine because you picked them. Were you in the draft room ? I guess not, so basically it depends who you are siding with. This argument over Peter will never go anywhere since there is conflicting reports.

In the past posts, I've proven that the roster decline in quality between
1996 and 1999. There's more than a few statistics to prove the point. On your end, you try the hammer out things about Glenn, Peter and other what if about Parcells. Really, who cares ? Are you trying to judge Parcells legacy over a 'what if' pick ? You can get any source you want, it never happened, so lets compare what did take place.

The only thing you were able to prove was that Parcells MIGHT have taken a bust. Big deal. You also said that Parcells will kill the Dolphins with careless drafting. Oh yeah ? The Pats, Jets and Cowboys were all competitive for a few years once Parcells left. Which pretty much kill your argument that the only thing Parcells did was put a bunch of losers into shape.

You want to prove that Parcells legacy is equivalent to Grier's ? Just provide some numbers. Because, for now, it seems you are so short on arguments that you get out of your way to prove everybody's wrong about one meaningless tidbit, as if it was going to prove your whole theory.

 

[upstater1]

I'm not going to argue with you. You're a person who, presented with OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary, will still argue that the earth is flat.

Christian Peter must have been talking to an imposter, I guess.

Any one else who haplessly happens upon these posts can read the newspaper citations for themselves and decide.

 

[RDS11]

If you still think your argument is credible despite all the evidence, you can continue on in blissful ignorance.

Again with the name calling ? You think you can win an argument by bullying other posters ?

I personally don't think the Peter discussion is relevant to the debate we were having, but just for the sake of it let's look at your sources, the ones that back your 'facts' and led you to call me ignorant :

From Peter King : Imagine Peter's delight when he picked up the phone on April 21 and heard Parcells on the other end of the line seconds after he was selected. Peter was a budding football prospect in northern New Jersey when the New York Giants won their two Super Bowls. Parcells had coached those two teams, and Peter was a big fan.

to which you added :

Sources: Williamson, Borges, Shaughnessy, Gee, Peter King, and, Christian Peter HIMSELF.

Christian Peter was never actually quoted as saying Parcells called him. Peter King just assumed that since Parcells was the face of the organization at the time. You can't say for sure Parcells called Peter after the pick for sure according to Peter King's article.

Furthermore, on page 2 on that same article you can see :
'' Thorough background checks on prospective draftees are routine, and for Grier and Armey to have put Peter on their board without flagging him as a potential problem is incomprehensible. Nevertheless, Kraft said the two men still have his confidence. But, he added, "it's the last time our organization will ever flirt with someone like [Peter]—if our people want to keep their jobs."''

Parcells is never named as being at fault her. Peter is also quoted as saying the Pats did mulitple background check during the combine. We know that Parcells wasn't at the combine.

Worcester Sunday telegram, April 26, 1996, writer: Williamson:
Quote:
My favorite ridiculous rationalization offered by the New England Patriots after they drafted the very un-Christian Christian Peter was delivered last week by coach Bill Parcells:

"I think, once he gets in a good, solid structure, everything will be fine," Parcells told reporters.

I've covered that one already. It's only Parcells, still employed by the Pats, trying to defent the organization pick. Proves nothing.

Boston Herald, April 26, 1996: Writer: Gee:
Quote:
And the day after the draft, Myra Kraft, Bob's wife, read in Joel Buchsbaum's draft guide about Peter's assault rap. She did so in the presence of the Herald's George Kimball.
Quote:
But as Parcells himself said last week, "They're not all choir boys in this league, in case you haven't noticed."

Again, proves nothing as far as Parcells having a say in picking Peter.

Globe, April 25, 1996: Writer: Shaughnessy:
Quote:
But that doesn't wash with what Grier said three days earlier, after drafting Peter. "We were well aware of his off-field problems. We did our normal investigation," Grier said. "We know that this is a little bit of a controversial pick for us, but Peter understands what this organization stands for, that we're not going to stand for any of those shenanigans off the field or anything that's going to put a bad light on this franchise or the community."

As recently as Sunday, coach Bill Parcells was defending the jerk. "I think once he gets in a good, solid structure, everything will be fine," the coach said. "I know {Nebraska coach Tom} Osborne very well myself, having known him since 1964."

Again, not proving Parcells was involved in the pick. Just trying to defend the organization.

So, the only thing left is Ron Borges. The same Ron Borges who had conflicting information with Will McDonough about the 1st round draft pick. The same Ron Borges who got suspended by the Globe without pay for 2 months for using the work of another journalist.

Now tell me, why are your sources better than mine ?

 

[upstater1]

Again with the name calling ? You think you can win an argument by bullying other posters ?

I personally don't think the Peter discussion is relevant to the debate we were having, but just for the sake of it let's look at your sources, the ones that back your 'facts' and led you to call me ignorant :



to which you added :



Christian Peter was never actually quoted as saying Parcells called him. Peter King just assumed that since Parcells was the face of the organization at the time. You can't say for sure Parcells called Peter after the pick for sure according to Peter King's article.

Furthermore, on page 2 on that same article you can see :
'' Thorough background checks on prospective draftees are routine, and for Grier and Armey to have put Peter on their board without flagging him as a potential problem is incomprehensible. Nevertheless, Kraft said the two men still have his confidence. But, he added, "it's the last time our organization will ever flirt with someone like [Peter]—if our people want to keep their jobs."''

Parcells is never named as being at fault her. Peter is also quoted as saying the Pats did mulitple background check during the combine. We know that Parcells wasn't at the combine.



I've covered that one already. It's only Parcells, still employed by the Pats, trying to defent the organization pick. Proves nothing.



Again, proves nothing as far as Parcells having a say in picking Peter.



Again, not proving Parcells was involved in the pick. Just trying to defend the organization.

So, the only thing left is Ron Borges. The same Ron Borges who had conflicting information with Will McDonough about the 1st round draft pick. The same Ron Borges who got suspended by the Globe without pay for 2 months for using the work of another journalist.

Now tell me, why are your sources better than mine ?

Because you only have one source, gary Meyers, who believes Parcells never walked back into the draft room after the Terry Glenn pick.

Your other source says the Peter pick was contentious, which it obviously was. You think Parcells is going out into public BEFORE the draft saying he talked to Tom Osborne and that Peter will be a good kid because he DOESN'T want to pick Peter? That's absurd. The reason it was contentious was because Myra Kraft got involved and forced Parcells to cut a player. That's contentious. Don't tell me you believe Kraft and Parcells had an argument over Peter as well on draft day.

As for the bullying, you can call it that. I call it weariness because of the overwhleming evidence and all you got to hang your hat on is Gary Meyers. Jeez.

 

[RDS11]

You're a person who, presented with OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary, will still argue that the earth is flat.

I can say the same thing about you. You are still arguing that Parcells did as poor a job as Grier. You are still refuting the fact that Parcells built 4 good teams. You are still refuting that Parcells picked more player that stuck around the NFL for a longer period of time that Grier's. Your are still refuting that Grier is reponsible for the porr roster of that 1999 season.

On the other hand, the only argument you provided is the Peter pick for which you argue that the only source claiming that Parcells was involved in the pick is better than mine. You have 1 source, I got one too, so I wouldn't say you got overwhelming evidence.

 

[upstater1]

I can say the same thing about you. You are still arguing that Parcells did as poor a job as Grier. You are still refuting the fact that Parcells built 4 good teams. LIAR

You are still refuting that Parcells picked more player that stuck around the NFL for a longer period of time that Grier's. HE DIDN'T. I PROVED THAT. BOTH OF THEM SUCKED AT DRAFTING.

Your are still refuting that Grier is reponsible for the porr roster of that 1999 season. UH, NO, NEVER DID THAT. ANOTHER LIE.

On the other hand, the only argument you provided is the Peter pick for which you argue that the only source claiming that Parcells was involved in the pick is better than mine. You have 1 source, I got one too, so I wouldn't say you got overwhelming evidence.

I have 7 sources, you have one, Myers. The evidence is overwhelming, a deaf dumb and blind man can see that.

 

[upstater1]

I just realized some of the ****amamie arguments you're making. You're now stating that Peter King made that quote up about Christian Peter telling him that Parcells called? Really? And what about both Dan Shaughnessy AND Ron Borges reporting that Parcells told them he called Tom Osborne to vouch for Christian Peter? Why would Parcells put himself on the line for a pick he didn't want? Parcells goes out of his way, "I called Tom Osborne," "There are no choir boys," "He needs a sound structure," "It was an organizational pick," to be a good company man? Really? After the way Kraft took his authority away? And after what Parcells said about the Terry Glenn pick directly after Kraft and Grier talked Glenn up? Please.

 

[RDS11]

The evidence is overwhelming, a deaf dumb and blind man can see that.

Again with the name calling. Like being the bully don't you ?

I have 7 sources,

No you don't. There's only one of your sources who clearly says the Parcells was involved. All the other ones are only stating that Parcells defended the pick. Which he had to do since he was the one facing the writers after the draft.

You're now stating that Peter King made that quote up about Christian Peter telling him that Parcells called

No I don't. But read carefully what King said. Peter is never quoted as saying Parcells called. Obviously, someone from the Pats organization had to call Peter after the selection, and King might have assumed it was Parcells since he was the face of the organization, not knowing the drama that went on the day before (for the Glenn pick). King is only saying that Peter was excited to play for Parcells.

Even if Parcells called, doesn't prove he was involved into making the pick.
Another source that doesn't link Parcells to the group who selected Peter.

People can read, let them judge by themselves. Not impressed by the name calling though.

 

[RDS11]

There's the whole King article :

New England fumbled when it drafted Christian Peter and - 05.06.96 - SI Vault