Pete Carroll-what went wrong?

[upstater1]

Finally, about the comments on Cassel, I don't get what your point is : he was asked 5 years after the fact why he started Leinhart over Cassel. Carroll might not the the best coach ever, but he had to see something more in Leinhart than in Cassel in order to start. He just explained the reason why...it has nothing to do with his current players or installing doubts. And if Sanchez has doubts about his ability in the NFL following Carroll's comments, what kind of QB will he become after throwing 5 picks in a game ?? Professional athletes have to be stronger mentally than that...

No, he was asked to comment about Cassell's potential as an NFL QB. Carroll expressed doubt that Cassell would succeed.

Your own coach saying you're not ready for the NFL, when you're entering the draft after being under his system for 4 years, is going to have an impact on your draft status. But I guess Pete has to get his two cents in.

 

[RDS11]

How many times do I have to say this?

There was a poison pill in the contract. You contend they didn't have the salary cap to sign him. But, they could have signed him easily to the exact same contract that the Jets signed him to. You do realize that the poison pill made him that much more expensive for the Patriots, don't you? The poison pill was a roster bonus paid immediately. "He received a $7.5 million bonus: a signing bonus of $4.2 million and a $3.3 million roster bonus (the poison pill) received seven days after signing." Plus, the $9 million option year at the back end of the contract wouldn't have been an option if, as required, the Patriots paid his roster bonus.

Not entirely true :
PRO FOOTBALL; Jets Get Martin, but the Deal Is Under Scrutiny - New York Times
PRO FOOTBALL; N.F.L. Official and Parcells Meet About Martin Contract - New York Times

You got your facts wrong : the poison pill was in the fact that Martin could test free agency again after the first year, after getting a big 9 millions roster bonus. The trick part is that the Pats thought the Jets had put that clause in only after Martin had given his word that he wouldn't bail on the Jets after that 1 season.

So basically, it was a 6 years/36 millions deal with the Jets, but a 1 year/13 millions deal if the Pats were to match the offer sheet.

Nonetheless, it has nothing to do with Pete's ability to coach, only with Grier's ability to retain top talent.

Heck, Grier has been one of the top personnel man in Houston since they got a team back. Not doing too good over there either...meanwhile, Carroll has 1 national championship and 7 straight top 25 seasons.

 

[upstater1]

Not entirely true :
PRO FOOTBALL; Jets Get Martin, but the Deal Is Under Scrutiny - New York Times
PRO FOOTBALL; N.F.L. Official and Parcells Meet About Martin Contract - New York Times

You got your facts wrong : the poison pill was in the fact that Martin could test free agency again after the first year, after getting a big 9 millions roster bonus. The trick part is that the Pats thought the Jets had put that clause in only after Martin had given his word that he wouldn't bail on the Jets after that 1 season.

So basically, it was a 6 years/36 millions deal with the Jets, but a 1 year/13 millions deal if the Pats were to match the offer sheet.

Nonetheless, it has nothing to do with Pete's ability to coach, only with Grier's ability to retain top talent.

Heck, Grier has been one of the top personnel man in Houston since they got a team back. Not doing too good over there either...meanwhile, Carroll has 1 national championship and 7 straight top 25 seasons.

Isn't that what I wrote, $13 million in the first year? Plus, th last year was guaranteed for Martin if the Pats kept him on. Not so with the Jets.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion about Grier's ability to retain top talent after you basically agreed on the poison pill.

You actually thought it was a good idea to pay Curtis Martin $13 million for a year? That was a poison pill. It was made illegal. Had nothing to do with not having enough salary cap space. I remember clearly at the time that the Patriots could have matched if they wanted to but it was crazy to do so with the poison pill. Furthermore, Rucci started in the Super Bowl and gave the Patriots several good years, and by the time he was done, his contract was below par for starters. Max Lane was just cut because his signing bonus was small and it didn't hurt the cap. Terry Glenn, Lawyer Milloy, Tedy Bruschi, etc. These were Grier picks too, don't forget.

 

[RDS11]

Plus, th last year was guaranteed for Martin if the Pats kept him on. Not so with the Jets.

No. You can't put a clause into a contract which is team specific. The poison pill was the fact that the contract let Martin choose the lenght. He had the option to get out after 1 year. And the Pats said there was tampering between Martin and the Jets, to make sure he wouldn't leave after 1 year. The Pats had no such guarantee if the decided to match the offer sheet. But it was the same contract for both teams...
Did I think it was worth signing Martin to 13 millions ? No, of course. But why wait so long for your franchise player ? They had to find a way to fit Martin under the cap and made the mistake of thinking that no team would make an offer for a restricted free agent (because of the 1st round draft pick compensation). It was a mistake, obviously, since Martin went away. A miscalculation, and Grier was the man in charge. Actually, they were quite happy to get a pretty high draft pick for Martin, thinking they could get better value...

Rucci and Lane were so good that NO team picked them up when they were released. Yes, they made it to the Super Bowl, and yet, Reggie White had a Super Bowl record 3 sacks and Martin was limited to less than 60 yards. Both were out of football by 2000. Those were worth getting the team against the cap ceiling ?
Anyways, your argument is weak : Robinson-Randall was starting for the Pats in 2001. He has a Super Bowl ring. 3 years later he was a backup in the CFL. Some players on Super Bowl teams are weaker than other...

But again, for the third time, all of this has nothing to do with Carroll. And again, look at the stats, Carroll's Pats had about the same stats than Parcells the year before. The thread was who was responsible for the free fall, and it's clear Grier didn't do anything good to the roster, beside Woody (Edwards looked like a keeper, but we will never know).

Compare the roster between 1996 and 1999, and it's obvious the level of talent took a nose dive. The starting running back in 1999, Allen, was 31 and played 15 games in the NFL after the Pats cut him. Coates, the starting tight end, played another 16 games and got 9 more catches after Belichick cut him. Simmons, the 3rd wr, caught only 16 passes after the 1999 season and was out of football by 2002. Jefferson, the 2nd wr, ended up starting only 16 more games in the NFL after the 1999 season. Brisby, the 5th wr, played 3 more games and that was it. Armstrong, the left tackle, was cut by Belichick, but resigned for the 2000 season, his final one. Carter, the fb, started just 6 games in the NFL after 1999. Irwin, the left guard, started another 12 games in the next 2 season and was out of football at 29. Moss, the right tackle, didn't play another game after the 1999 season. In offense, 7 of the 11 starters from 1999 were out of football within 2 years. What did you expected Carroll to do with the players Grier had provided him ?

I won't go into such details for the defense, but Thomas, Slade, Katzenmoyer and Israel, 4 of the 11 starters, were out of football by 2001. Carter & Mitchell both started less than 16 games, after 1999, before being out of work.

So 13 of the 22 starters from the 1999 team were either out of football or had very limited playing time in the next few years. If you still think Grier had nothing to do with the fall, I bet there will be more players from the 2008 Bengals in the NFL in 2 years than the 1999 Pats had.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Back in the day I thought the loss of Curtis Martin really hurt the Pats and they should have re-signed him. However, today, I feel that what really hurt the Pats was the simple fact of not being able to replace him. In 1998, Robert Edwards and Curtis Martin's stats were pretty much even. In the 1999 rookie pro bowl is where the Pats nightmare to find a running back replacement became a reality. I do remember that after the 1999 draft, Pete Carroll said that they tried everything they could to trade up for Edgerrin James but no dice. Aside from Ricky Williams and Edgerrin James, there really wasn't any RB's that could replace the loss of Robert Edwards. So the Pats settled for Kevin Faulk in round 2 but didn't take his game to another level until the 2001 season. From a statistical standpoint, Curtis Martin didn't really tear up the NFL until the 2004 season when he led the leauge in rushing. But for some reason, Martin single handidly killed the Pats almost every time he played against them. This painted the illusion that the loss of Martin was worse than it really was. Every time he tore up the Pats, I would say to myself, "damn I wish the Pats would have re-signed him". In today's NFL, I think the Pats made the right decision to let Martin go and acquire a 1st and a 3rd round pick. They just had a really bad case of luck with the Robert Edwards injury.

 

[Shockt327]

Grier was VP of Player Personnel from '97-'99; here's the first four rounds of those drafts:
'99: C Damien Woody, LB Andy Katzenmoyer, RB Kevin Faulk, S Tony George, CB J'Juan Cherry
Pats traded away their 1st, 3rd & 6th round draft pick to move up three slots to get Woody.
'98: RB Robert Edwards, S Tebucky Jonrs, WR Tony Simmons, TE Rob Rutledge, FB Chris Floyd, DE Greg Spires, DE Leonta Rheams
Edwards and Floyd were compensation for Curtis Martin; Simmons was compensation for Parcells.
'97: CB Chris Canty, DT Brandon Mitchell, RB Sedrick Shaw, S Chris Carter, G Damon Denson, T Ed Ellis
Shaw and Ellis were compensation for Parcells.

By comparison, here's the first four rounds of the previous three drafts:
'96: WR Terry Glenn, S Lawyer Milloy, LB Tedy Bruschi, OL Heath Irwin, DL Chris Sullivan, FB Kantroy Barber
Pats also traded away a draft pick for T Pat Harlow
'95: CB Ty Law, LB Ted Johnson, RB Curtis Martin, CB Jimmy Hitchcoock; C Dave Wohlabaugh
'94: LB Willie McGinest, WR Kevin Lee, DT Ernie Collier, C Joe Burch, TE John Burke

So I take it Parcells dominated the agenda in the draft. So how does that explain the Terry Glenn fiasco? Who was running the show?

 

[aluminum seats]

Well, McDonough and Parcells were buddies. I seriously think the going nuts part might have been more from Parcells getting overruled authority wise, which is much more imortant than any individual pick.

McDonough wrote a really long article about this back then. He and Parcells were friends, and he and Kraft were actually friendly as well. Kraft chafed for a long time at the fact that Parcells simply did not show him any respect, and so Kraft decided to sandbag him on draft day. McDonough had written about how the draft would go (based on info Parcells gave him) so he ended up being wrong as well, so he and Kraft had a falling out. Kraft decided to assert his authority but he did so in an underhanded way, not telling Parcells about Glenn.

All water under the bridge. The great thing about Kraft is how adeptly he's reacted to his mistakes. Yes, he went a little crazy with Carroll (the stopwatch, etc.) but you can understand why. He owned his favorite team! He wanted to feel involved with it! Which Parcells never let him do. But he realized that wasn't the way to go.

On the other stuff, as others have said, Grier was awful--his draft, and his undermining of Carroll. Could Carroll ever be a successful nfl coach? I dunno.....I suspect that the conventional wisdom about him is right--sharp mind, good guy, but a college coach. I mean, can Burt Bacharach really be an NFL coach?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Man, I often think of what might have been for Robert Edwards. That kid was a tremendous back, what we needed to help us forget Curtis martin, sort of how Ghost took over when Vinny left for Indy. He had a great heart and drive, and really tried for a comeback, but to no avail.

I also think of Tony Simmons as the 1998 version of Bethel Johnson.

Definitely, I think Robert Edwards would have been an excellent NFL back. He was the same year as Fred Taylor, and more scouts thought they were similar talent; some even had Edwards higher. So I'll give Grier the benefit of the doubt on that one and give him 3 hits over that span... which is still awful.

 

[RayClay]

McDonough wrote a really long article about this back then. He and Parcells were friends, and he and Kraft were actually friendly as well. Kraft chafed for a long time at the fact that Parcells simply did not show him any respect, and so Kraft decided to sandbag him on draft day. McDonough had written about how the draft would go (based on info Parcells gave him) so he ended up being wrong as well, so he and Kraft had a falling out. Kraft decided to assert his authority but he did so in an underhanded way, not telling Parcells about Glenn.

All water under the bridge. The great thing about Kraft is how adeptly he's reacted to his mistakes. Yes, he went a little crazy with Carroll (the stopwatch, etc.) but you can understand why. He owned his favorite team! He wanted to feel involved with it! Which Parcells never let him do. But he realized that wasn't the way to go.

On the other stuff, as others have said, Grier was awful--his draft, and his undermining of Carroll. Could Carroll ever be a successful nfl coach? I dunno.....I suspect that the conventional wisdom about him is right--sharp mind, good guy, but a college coach. I mean, can Burt Bacharach really be an NFL coach?

Absolutely. Kraft and Parcells were never going to get along, but Kraft eventually realized that having authority in the hands of the best football guy was the way to go and he liked the way BB operated.

What we'll never know is what Parcells would have actually done in that draft. Brackens wasn't picked until the second round.

With Marvin Harrison and Moulds available (after Kennison at 18) with the 19th or 24th and top receivers available all through the draft down to the 3rd (T.O.) and 5th (Joe Horn) rounds, I'm sure Parcells was going to trade that pick for great value, including a top receiver and multiple extra picks.

Just do the math. He could have got Harrison + Brackens or Moulds + Brackens + a third rounder.

Of course, if he traded the 7th for a non WR, he'd get even better values at WR, since the top ones would drop a notch.

That was a draft to build a team on.

[Of course if he liked Owens, Toomer, Horn, Muisin Muhammed etc, he could have pretty much restocked other positions while stil getting a top WR.]

To me, this is why he blew his top, not because of a small disagreement.

This draft was so stocked with WRs, Wiki devoted most of its 1996 draft article to that distinction

This draft is considered one of the best draft classes ever for the position of wide receiver. Keyshawn Johnson, Terry Glenn, Eddie Kennison, Marvin Harrison, Eric Moulds, Bobby Engram, Terrell Owens, Muhsin Muhammad, Amani Toomer, and Joe Horn

1996 NFL Draft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[upstater1]

No. You can't put a clause into a contract which is team specific. The poison pill was the fact that the contract let Martin choose the lenght. He had the option to get out after 1 year.

Prior to the poison pill, you could make divergent contracts. Heck, we saw an offer sheet which said, if the player plays ex-amount of games in the Metrodome, he gets paid $$$$. That may not be "team-specific" but only one team plays 8 games in the Metrodome.

I know for a fact that the last year of the contract with its balloon payment was a big issue. I just can't remember why. I know that it was constantly discussed that it gave the Jets an advantage. Maybe because of the roster bonus and how it was counted against the cap over the length of the contract?

My memory is hazy on that aspect but I do remember there was a balloon payment in the last year that was onerous for the Patriots.

As I said earlier, even the current Patriots don't sign all their free agents to contracts , and you have to wonder if they'd be doing it at all now if they still had some of the provisions of the CBA such as the transition tag. So the Martin thing was not miscalculation. Parcells did an end around the collective bargaining agreement, something that was immediately made illegal. If you have control over your player through the CBA and you can match his deal, then you use the leverage you have, and if someone offers him more, then you make decision to keep him or let him go. The Patriots never got that opportunity because of the poison pill. You might say the Patriots should have expected to have such dirty tricks played against them, but in the NFL, there's typically some honor among owners where you don't mess with the CBA by subverting it in that fashion. I'm sure that Belichick has thought of countless ways to mess with the CBA, it's not that hard to do, but is screwing up the league's bargaining agreement worth it?

 

[upstater1]

Absolutely. Kraft and Parcells were never going to get along, but Kraft eventually realized that having authority in the hands of the best football guy was the way to go and he liked the way BB operated.

What we'll never know is what Parcells would have actually done in that draft. Brackens wasn't picked until the second round.

With Marvin Harrison and Moulds available (after Kennison at 18) with the 19th or 24th and top receivers available all through the draft down to the 3rd (T.O.) and 5th (Joe Horn) rounds, I'm sure Parcells was going to trade that pick for great value, including a top receiver and multiple extra picks.

Just do the math. He could have got Harrison + Brackens or Moulds + Brackens + a third rounder.

Of course, if he traded the 7th for a non WR, he'd get even better values at WR, since the top ones would drop a notch.

That was a draft to build a team on.

[Of course if he liked Owens, Toomer, Horn, Muisin Muhammed etc, he could have pretty much restocked other positions while stil getting a top WR.]

To me, this is why he blew his top, not because of a small disagreement.

This draft was so stocked with WRs, Wiki devoted most of its 1996 draft article to that distinction



1996 NFL Draft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But look at who the Patriots DID get in that draft.

They did stock the team.

 

[RayClay]

But look at who the Patriots DID get in that draft.

They did stock the team.

They were collaborating. It's hard to tell who makes the decisions in that instance, but how were the drafts after Parcells left?

Obviously, Parcells thought he could have done much better with that pick and I tend to agree.

 

[Calciumee]

But look at who the Patriots DID get in that draft.

They did stock the team.

Yeah, we drafted Chris Griffin

 

[upstater1]

Yeah, we drafted Chris Griffin

Bruschi, Milloy, Glenn.

 

[upstater1]

They were collaborating. It's hard to tell who makes the decisions in that instance, but how were the drafts after Parcells left?


Obviously, Parcells thought he could have done much better with that pick and I tend to agree.

That's not even the point. We've been through this already in this thread. Allowing the Jets future coach to make your picks is not that smart.

 

[RayClay]

That's not even the point. We've been through this already in this thread. Allowing the Jets future coach to make your picks is not that smart.

My point is, you could have added Harrison or Moulds+ Brackens+ possibly a Three to Milloy and Bruschi.

If you want to make an entirely different point, that is up to you.

I already stated Parcells and Kraft would have never got along.

Parcells didn't get along with anyone that well.

[I don't think Belichick complained about using former picks from the Jets head coach in 2001. Except for the one forced on Parcells, he had to dump her to win.]

 

[upstater1]

My point is, you could have added Harrison or Moulds+ Brackens+ possibly a Three to Milloy and Bruschi.

If you want to make an entirely different point, that is up to you.

I already stated Parcells and Kraft would have never got along.

Parcells didn't get along with anyone that well.

[I don't think Belichick complained about using former picks from the Jets head coach in 2001. Except for the one forced on Parcells, he had to dump her to win.]

But, isn't it ironic that the pick foisted on Parcells was the very player that had the greatest rookie season for a WR in NFL history?

Take Glenn off that team, does it make the Super Bowl?

And I don't think my point is different at all. It's crucial to understand Parcells' contention that they should have "let him by the groceries."

If he hadn't played footsie with the Jets, it's not at all a cinch that would have been banned from the supermarket. So, to say Kraft didn't let Parcells buy the groceries is a little like saying MI6 refused to share information with Kim Philby in the weeks before he relocated to Russia.

As for the could-have-beens of the 1996 draft, yes the wide receivers were fantastic in retrospect. But other than Glenn and Harrison, none of them were ticketed for greatness. Glenn was actually one of the top 2 or 3 receivers I've ever seen in college. Nor does Parcells' love of DE Cedric Jones give me any confidence that we would have ended up with that draft day booty that you're imagining.

From what I remember, Kraft actually gave in to Parcells and agreed to take DE Cedric Jones with the Patriots' first round pick. Now THAT would have been a disaster.

 

[RDS11]

But, isn't it ironic that the pick foisted on Parcells was the very player that had the greatest rookie season for a WR in NFL history?

Yep, and not much else after...the fact is Parcells was the one who could make Glenn the best he could be. Even Belichick couldn't get him to produce. Belichick cut him and chose to go with David Patten instead. So if Patten is good enough for Belichick, I would guess Mould, Horn, Harrison would not have done so bad. Without Parcells, Glenn had an avergae career. That draft had so much wideout to take from, Glenn wasn't the only pick who could have come in and have an immediate impact.

I don't understand why you try to protect the legacy of Grier. It doesn't take a genius to look at the roster from 1996 and 1999 to see he did an horrible job. He was THE football guy around here at the time, and in 3 years it went from Super Bowl to bottom 6.

Say what you want about the Martin, Lane and Rucci deals, it doesn't matter. If he had not made so many errors during that period he would still got a job with the Pats today. Instead he was canned, and the Pats won 3 Super Bowls in the following years.

Last thing...Krfat didn't take away Parcells personnel authority because he was going to the Jets. He removed Parcells from that spot because he was coaching year to year. You don't want the guy who is making the decision to have a short sight view...but Parcells did care, because he wouldn't have acted that way in the draft room if he didn't care anymore. Looking at Parcells record, I think I would have much more faith in his opinion than Grier's

 

[upstater1]

Yep, and not much else after...the fact is Parcells was the one who could make Glenn the best he could be. Even Belichick couldn't get him to produce. Belichick cut him and chose to go with David Patten instead. So if Patten is good enough for Belichick, I would guess Mould, Horn, Harrison would not have done so bad. Without Parcells, Glenn had an avergae career. That draft had so much wideout to take from, Glenn wasn't the only pick who could have come in and have an immediate impact.


That's Mr. Hindsight. Easy to say that 10 years later. I watch a lot of college ball, and other than Harrison, no one else was ticketed for greatness. How many WR busts do we have in the NFL each and every year. You have to go after the sure things.

I don't understand why you try to protect the legacy of Grier. It doesn't take a genius to look at the roster from 1996 and 1999 to see he did an horrible job. He was THE football guy around here at the time, and in 3 years it went from Super Bowl to bottom 6.


Huh? Have you even read my posts in this thread saying Grier was a terrible drafter? Bizarre.

Say what you want about the Martin, Lane and Rucci deals, it doesn't matter. If he had not made so many errors during that period he would still got a job with the Pats today. Instead he was canned, and the Pats won 3 Super Bowls in the following years.


So was Pete Carroll. Canned, and then we won.

Last thing...Krfat didn't take away Parcells personnel authority because he was going to the Jets. He removed Parcells from that spot because he was coaching year to year. You don't want the guy who is making the decision to have a short sight view...but Parcells did care, because he wouldn't have acted that way in the draft room if he didn't care anymore. Looking at Parcells record, I think I would have much more faith in his opinion than Grier's

Kraft got wind of Parcells' phone calls with the Jets. FACT. This was why well before the Glenn draft Kraft went to Parcells and said he wanted him to sign an extension. It was only after that meeting that Kraft started moving Parcells out. In fact, Kraft took Parcells at that meeting because he installed the infamous BUYOUT clause. Parcells asked to shorten his contract because his batteries were on empty, and Kraft complied by putting in the rider saying if Parcells went to another team, he would have to buyout the contract. This was a huge issue because Parcells could have jumped to the Jets front office for a year and left the Patriots without the 4 picks, but it was the contract clause put in the contract AFTER Kraft figured Parcells was double-crossing him, that's what hung Parcells up from moving to the Jets.

As for Parcells, I have looked at his draft record. I have no idea why you think this is good:

1 4 Willie McGinest OLB USC
2 35 Kevin Lee WR Alabama
3 78 Ervin Collier DT Florida A&M
3 90 Joe Burch C Texas Southern
4 121 John Burke TE Virginia Tech
5 135 Pat O'Neill P Syracuse
6 166 Steve Hawkins WR Western Michigan
6 168 Max Lane T Navy
7 198 Jay Walker QB Howard
7 222 Marty Moore LB Kentucky

1993 - New England Patriots
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State
2 31 Chris Slade OLB Virginia
2 51 Todd Rucci T Penn State
2 56 Vincent Brisby WR Louisiana-Monroe
4 86 Kevin Johnson DT Texas Southern
4 110 Corwin Brown SS Michigan
5 113 Scott Sisson K Georgia Tech
5 138 Rich Griffith TE Arizona
6 142 Lawrence Hatch CB Florida
8 198 Troy Brown WR Marshall

Don't get me wrong, Parcells brought in Law, Ted Johnson and Martin the next year, but that's as good as Grier's Bruschi, Milloy, Glenn draft. otherwise, Parcells was getting one or two good players a year. Not good.

 

[RayClay]

But, isn't it ironic that the pick foisted on Parcells was the very player that had the greatest rookie season for a WR in NFL history?

Take Glenn off that team, does it make the Super Bowl?

And I don't think my point is different at all. It's crucial to understand Parcells' contention that they should have "let him by the groceries."

If he hadn't played footsie with the Jets, it's not at all a cinch that would have been banned from the supermarket. So, to say Kraft didn't let Parcells buy the groceries is a little like saying MI6 refused to share information with Kim Philby in the weeks before he relocated to Russia.

As for the could-have-beens of the 1996 draft, yes the wide receivers were fantastic in retrospect. But other than Glenn and Harrison, none of them were ticketed for greatness. Glenn was actually one of the top 2 or 3 receivers I've ever seen in college. Nor does Parcells' love of DE Cedric Jones give me any confidence that we would have ended up with that draft day booty that you're imagining.

From what I remember, Kraft actually gave in to Parcells and agreed to take DE Cedric Jones with the Patriots' first round pick. Now THAT would have been a disaster.

I'd still take Marvin Harrison and Brackens. Or Eric Moulds, Brackens and a third. Or a combination of picks and the whatever deals for 1st, 2nds and 3rds you could make.

By the way, that was that nasty future Jets coach who was the only one to get anything out of the mentally unbalanced underachiever.

I do have to give you credit, you're the only Bobby Grier fan left as far as I know.