Patriot's HOF question - Moss

[Buchanty]

That's a tough question, as I would like him voted in because of his uniqueness and the magic of 12 to 81 in 2007, it's doubtful that the Patriots will ever see such a tandem again (I know not in my lifetime at least). But the reasons against outweigh those for:

For

23 receiving touchdowns in a season NFL Record
50 career receiving TDs for the Patriots - tied 2nd in franchise history
9 games in season with 100yds or more receiving - franchise record
4 games consecutive 100yds or more receiving - franchise record
in top 10 of franchise receiving records after only 3 years
Effortlessly athletic

Against

Only 3 years
Talked his way out of town
Doesn't exemplify the patriot way - not %120 all the time (sometimes not even 100%)

Still if I had to choose between Moss and Parcells, Randy wins it in a heartbeat. I still cant forget the fallout from Parcell's last year as coach and his disloyalty around the 96 Superbowl.

PS Patriots did a smart thing with the Patriot's Hall, especially now that they have become a prestige club. Now players have an ambition to be inducted into that one as well as Canton. With only 1 selection a year it demands something special (beginning with loyalty and representing the franchise). I wonder if that played any part in Gronk's decision to extend to 2019 - (ie a place alongside Brady, Brown, Harrison, McGinnest, Law, Vrabel and Bruschi)

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I've highligted one little sentence there but its running through your whole post as well. I have a question.
Since when was 1264 yards and 13 tds not a stellar season?

In three full seasons here Moss averaged 1255 yards and 15.6 tds per season. Even if you take out the phenomenal 2007 season he still averaged over 1100 yards and 12 tds which is well ahead of an average season for a no.1 receiver. And one of those years was when Brady was out and Matt Cassel was there. He had to share looks with Welker too which makes those numbers exceptional.

He had to share looks with Welker in 2007 and 2009 too. Thing is it's not just about stats. Stats can be empty and they can be misleading. They have to be taken in context in combination with the eye test and perspective insight that relates to actual value/contributions to a teams seasons that often incorporates what a player provides over and above statistical production on and off the field (in the locker room). Players like Brandon Marshall and TO and Randy don't end up bouncing around the league throughout otherwise productive careers like hot potatoes for no reason.

The kind of players that belong in a teams HOF elevate the play of those around them consistently, and most significantly in times of adversity. And that is the story of the teams that won those 3 Lombardis. This team did everything it could to support Moss. Even the players chipped in (unless the voting was rigged) naming him a captain in 2008 and again in 2009. And what he did in return was throw it all back in their collective faces because at the end of the day Randy was always all about Randy and adversity isn' something he deals with. Just like a lot of diva WR's. Randy was on a mission to prove something in 2007, and once that was accomplished he began to increasingly check out at a time when those around him were fighting tooth and nail to refuse to succomb to adversity. The play Brady went out on in 2008 was Randy's first target of the season. He dropped it. He then proceeded to go through the motions in tepidly supporting Cassel, but his on field and behind the scenes contributions were inconsistent at best. Then as Brady battled through rehab to regain his form in 2009, Randy increasingly sulked his way through what would turn out to be his last season here for that reason. Brady willed him to his stats that season, but at a price, on reflection, the team wasn't willing to pay anymore.

Sorry, that's just not a teams HOF resume. Any more than Dillon's is. And Corey brought a lot more to the post season table following his singular regular season for the ages here than Randy remotely did.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I noted earlier that it is virtually useless trying to compare stats between players from different eras, so take the following with a grain of salt. But for what it's worth here is how Randy Moss ranks in some all-time categories in the history of the Patriots franchise.


Career:

• 12th in receptions with 259 (was 11th when he departed; Deion Branch has since passed him)
• 10th in receiving yards with 3904 (was 9th, again since passed by Branch)
• 14th in yards per reception with 15.1
• 2nd in touchdowns and touchdown receptions with 50 (tied with Ben Coates)
• 2nd in receptions per game with 5.0
• 2nd in receiving yards per game with 75.1
• 7th in total points scored with 302

Season:

• 6th in receptions with 98; only Wes Welker (4x) and Troy Brown had more; also 14th (83) and 22nd (69)
• 2nd in receiving yards with 1493 (was 1st, since passed by Welker); also 6th (1264) and 16th (1008)
• 2nd in number of 1000-yard receiving seasons (3), tied with Stanley Morgan
• 1st in touchdown receptions (23); also 3rd (13) and 5th (11)
• 7th in receptions per game with 6.1
• 3rd in receiving yards per game with 93.3; also 9th (79.0)
• 1st in all touchdowns (23); also 5th (13)
• 7th in points scored (138); the next closest non-kicker ranks 24th

How does he compare statistically in the post season?

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. There are too many fans in denial who think Bledsoe was a good teamate while he was attempting to divide the lockerroom and pit coach vs owner in 2001.

What evidence do you have that he was trying to do that?

 

[reflexblue]

I voted no because he RM wasn't here long enough IMO Theres something to be said for a player being on a team for a while for them to be voted into the teams HOF

 

[patfanken]

Vikings HOF - YES

NFL HOF - YES

Patriots HOF - NO

I think the Dillon comparison is a good example. A player who came in and had a monster year, followed by 2 years of decent but decreasing productivity and ending with a somewhat less than cordial departure. No one here is calling for Dillon to be in the Pats HOF, and neither should anyone be calling for Moss.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Vikings HOF - YES

NFL HOF - YES

Patriots HOF - NO

I think the Dillon comparison is a good example. A player who came in and had a monster year, followed by 2 years of decent but decreasing productivity and ending with a somewhat less than cordial departure. No one here is calling for Dillon to be in the Pats HOF, and neither should anyone be calling for Moss.

How about Rodney Harrison or Deion Branch Ken?

 

[Ring 6]

What evidence do you have that he was trying to do that?

There is mountains of it. Were you a fan in 2001? It was pretty well known that Bledsoe went to Kraft to try to get him to overrule BB. There were divisive comments made by Bledsoe, calling BB a liar.

 

[Ring 6]

That's a tough question, as I would like him voted in because of his uniqueness and the magic of 12 to 81 in 2007, it's doubtful that the Patriots will ever see such a tandem again (I know not in my lifetime at least). But the reasons against outweigh those for:

For

23 receiving touchdowns in a season NFL Record
50 career receiving TDs for the Patriots - tied 2nd in franchise history
9 games in season with 100yds or more receiving - franchise record
4 games consecutive 100yds or more receiving - franchise record
in top 10 of franchise receiving records after only 3 years
Effortlessly athletic

Against

Only 3 years
Talked his way out of town
Doesn't exemplify the patriot way - not %120 all the time (sometimes not even 100%)

Still if I had to choose between Moss and Parcells, Randy wins it in a heartbeat. I still cant forget the fallout from Parcell's last year as coach and his disloyalty around the 96 Superbowl.

PS Patriots did a smart thing with the Patriot's Hall, especially now that they have become a prestige club. Now players have an ambition to be inducted into that one as well as Canton. With only 1 selection a year it demands something special (beginning with loyalty and representing the franchise). I wonder if that played any part in Gronk's decision to extend to 2019 - (ie a place alongside Brady, Brown, Harrison, McGinnest, Law, Vrabel and Bruschi)

How do you figure the the team is incuding loyalty in the critieria when they included Parcells as a nominee?
The team doesn't select the winner from the nominees, fans do. By including Parcells, the team endorses him as NEPHOF worthy.

 

[RayClay]

Vikings HOF - YES

NFL HOF - YES

Patriots HOF - NO

I think the Dillon comparison is a good example. A player who came in and had a monster year, followed by 2 years of decent but decreasing productivity and ending with a somewhat less than cordial departure. No one here is calling for Dillon to be in the Pats HOF, and neither should anyone be calling for Moss.

I agree with all of that, including Dillon for PF HOF.

I think a candidate for Pats Hall of fame that's overlooked and still alive is Julius Adams. 16 Patriot seasons in the trenches.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

How do you figure the the team is incuding loyalty in the critieria when they included Parcells as a nominee?
The team doesn't select the winner from the nominees, fans do. By including Parcells, the team endorses him as NEPHOF worthy.

The team doesn't select the nominees. It's a nominating committee made up of some team members but more local mediots. And it's the top 3 vote getters. They loved covering Tuna, which thankfully isn't part of the fan based voting criteria.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

How about Rodney Harrison or Deion Branch Ken?

Rodney is a lock because he was instrumental in winning back to back rings and making it through an undefeated season to the point he almost salvaged Asante's blown coverage of Tyree which would have sealed the deal on another. This team was reeling in 2003 after Milloy's release until Rodney got in their faces and asked them if that was it, were they all just going to curl up in the fetal position and feel sorry for themselves because their buddy got cut... Unheard of for a veteran FA to be named a captain out of the gate, but he was that and more from 2003 on. Might have threepeated had they not lost him 3 games into 2005, and without him that secondary fell apart, and then again in 2006 Indy doesn't come roaring back in the second half if they weren't holding him out due to reinjury to be ready to come back if they made it. Significant presence and gamechanger who played out his entire contract even though he was seriously underpaid for the value he provided. First and second team All Pro in back to back championship seasons. He's in the discussion for Canton although safeties don't get a lot of votes. Slam dunk he is in the Patriots HOF.

Deion won 2 rings here in 4 seasons and tied Jerry Rice's SB performance catch record earning him an MVP (the media didn't want to give to old #199 again). But then he shot his way out of town. However he came back and that would have been easily forgiven had he caught a few more balls last February. He could still make a case with another ring and is probably worthy of discussion either way. But it will be hard for him to be relevant enough at this junction if Lloyd and Gaffney pan out.

 

[patfanken]

How about Rodney Harrison or Deion Branch Ken?

Completely different situations for both players Harrison played a key role with the Pats for SIX seasons, twice as long as Moss. Now that I think on it, I'd be fine with Rodney as a Pats HOFer, BUT before he get in there are several other players who I would want in BEFORE Rodney.

Branch is a different story to me. I have always thought that even in his prime he was a good but not great WR. His career with the Pats has been estimable, but not HOF worthy IMHO.

 

[patfanken]

I agree with all of that, including Dillon for PF HOF.

I think a candidate for Pats Hall of fame that's overlooked and still alive is Julius Adams. 16 Patriot seasons in the trenches.

Where did you get that I wanted Dillon in the HOF. I was using his example as to why Moss SHOULDN'T get in. Dillon shouldn't get in for the SAME reason.

BTW- Good get on Julius Adams. He's one of guys I'd want in before Rodney

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Where did you get that I wanted Dillon in the HOF. I was using his example as to why Moss SHOULDN'T get in. Dillon shouldn't get in for the SAME reason.

BTW- Good get on Julius Adams. He's one of guys I'd want in before Rodney

I don't think Garin Veris ever gets much attention to us fans who saw him play back in the 80s

Veris was a very good DE for a decade and was voted into the all 80s Pats team......but I don't believe he had ever been considered for the Pats HOF.....I hope someday,like Adams he gets in.

I may have been the biggest Veris fan when the team was in those hot and cold years.

 

[Ring 6]

The team doesn't select the nominees. It's a nominating committee made up of some team members but more local mediots. And it's the top 3 vote getters. They loved covering Tuna, which thankfully isn't part of the fan based voting criteria.

Agree on Parcells being a bad choice, but the team chose the method of nomination (and it is franchise personnel in the committee too) so the post I was replying to that said the team did a good job setting the system up so that loyalty is a criteria is not correct.

 

[lurker1965]

Buffoon really? How dare you call me a buffoon because my opinion differs to yours. When you mature a bit and can make a good argument without slinging insults come back to me.

chill.

I understand the reaction. Heck, I've had it too.

But I realized it takes two to start a fight. The jerk that insulted me, and me taking offense and reacting. I can't control the jerk, but I can control me.

 

[lurker1965]

Agree on Parcells being a bad choice, but the team chose the method of nomination (and it is franchise personnel in the committee too) so the post I was replying to that said the team did a good job setting the system up so that loyalty is a criteria is not correct.

I may have missed an earlier point, so forgive me if you are arguing something else.

But the question is not if the team thinks someone is HOF "worthy," but if the poster/ fan voter does.

For many team loyalty (or however you term it) counts. One may say that is insane and only what happens on the field should count, but people do not work that way.

If Tom Brady laughs maniacally as he shoots my dog it should not effect my Patriots HOF vote, but it will.

If every time someone mentions Parcells I envision the Phone bill with calls to Hempstead NY, I will vote against him. Period. If every time someone says Randy Moss I envision him at a podium telling me he will play again - just not in New England, ...

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

There is mountains of it. Were you a fan in 2001? It was pretty well known that Bledsoe went to Kraft to try to get him to overrule BB. There were divisive comments made by Bledsoe, calling BB a liar.

I was a fan in 2001 and I remember Bledsoe being disappointed in an interview, saying he's looking forward to the opportunity to win his job back. However I don't remember him calling BB a liar, maybe I missed it. Could you link me to the quote?