OT: Denver @ Indy

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

even thinking about wanting the Colts to win makes me hurl

but a Colts win may achieve many things:
1. Denver falls behind us in the seedings
2. Irsay celebrates and is too high to fire Pagano, so an inept coach remains
3. Irsay celebrates and is too high to fire Grigson, so an inept GM remains
4. A few of the remaining Peyton ball-washers give up their spin

gotta suck it up...
GO BLUE

 

[Bruins29]

We have rooted for the Jets, we have rooted for the Steelers and Ravens. We have even rooted for the Giants once I think...

We can do it again for the good of our team.

 

[ViperGTS]

Last year's Denver team was better at this point, but they were never as good on defense as this group is. They also never dominated a good team like this past week, so which version is the "real" one is a critical factor. The Broncos through the first six games is an also ran, the one from Sunday night is perhaps the best team in the league.



Absolutely, he's even admitted to all of that (except the salary cap) numerous times.



No way. This Denver defense is special. Not only have they been better than the 2014 Seattle defense (which was no great shakes until they had one of the easiest QB runs in the history of the game), they've been better than the 2013 Seahawks.

Again, this is the same personnel that got undressed by the Pats last year and folded against Indy in the playoffs. To compare them to the Seahawks of '13 or '14 is totally unfair to those units. Who is Denvers' Wagner? Bennett? Chancellor? Thomas? Just to name a few.

Completely unfair and bred from BS media hype.

 

[Oswlek]

Again, this is the same personnel that got undressed by the Pats last year and folded against Indy in the playoffs. To compare them to the Seahawks of '13 or '14 is totally unfair to those units. Who is Denvers' Wagner? Bennett? Chancellor? Thomas? Just to name a few.

Completely unfair and bred from BS media hype.

As soon as they get undressed again we can go there. But as far as season-to-date production goes, the comparison is warranted.

 

[dannydyn]

2013 - Superbowl 48 - Best offense (Donkeys) vs. best defense (Seahawks).... result = Seahawks ***-ram that offense.

2014 - Superbowl 49 - Best offense (Pats) vs. best defense (Seahawks).... result = Pats put their foot through that defense's ***.

2015 - AFCCG - Best offense (Pats) vs. best defense (Broncos).... result = Pats bend the donkeys over, and double ***-ram them with both feet up their a55es. Manning's arm in the cold January weather, turns al-dente frozen and falls off.

 

[Fixit]

I think you're forgetting how much people were sweating the Denver defense this time last year. And to say that this D is better than Seattle's in 2013 or 2014 is nuts, especially based off of quality of QB's played. Have you looked at Denver's schedule so far?

This is the same defense as last year, except minus Knighton. We should hold off on the all-time great talk for a little while.

 

[Oswlek]

I think you're forgetting how much people were sweating the Denver defense this time last year. And to say that this D is better than Seattle's in 2013 or 2014 is nuts, especially based off of quality of QB's played. Have you looked at Denver's schedule so far?

This is the same defense as last year, except minus Knighton. We should hold off on the all-time great talk for a little while.

I assume this is directed toward me. I don't forget anything about last year's defense nor am I overlooking who they've played. It's just demonstrable fact that Denver's defense has been exceptional so far this year and has performed better than Seattle the past two years. I never said they were an all time great nor have I said that they will continue to play this well. Not sure why pointing out the obvious bothers people so much.

 

[Fixit]

I assume this is directed toward me. I don't forget anything about last year's defense nor am I overlooking who they've played. It's just demonstrable fact that Denver's defense has been exceptional so far this year and has performed better than Seattle the past two years. I never said they were an all time great nor have I said that they will continue to play this well. Not sure why pointing out the obvious bothers people so much.

2014 Seattle: 15.9 ppg
2013 Seattle: 14.4 ppg
In a much better division, by the way.

So, Denver's D has looked really good through seven games, six of which were against crappy teams. But at no point have they been better than the 2013 Seahawks, which is one of the best ever. To say it's "demonstrable fact" is silly. Yes, you are saying Denver's D is all-time great.

PS You also said that this Denver D is "special." The implication is that it will continue to be this good.

 

[Oswlek]

2014 Seattle: 15.9 ppg
2013 Seattle: 14.4 log
In a much better division, by the way.

So, Denver's D has looked really good through seven games, six of which were against crappy teams. But at no point have they been better than the 2013 Seahawks. To say it's "demonstrable fact" is silly.

Denver's D has been carrying an awful offense, perhaps the worst in the entire league. In fact, Manning's three pick sixes alone bump Denver's PPG up from 13 to 16. Think about that for a second, three passes by Manning account for nearly 20% of the points the team has allowed the entire season!

If Denver's 13ppg doesn't sway you, perhaps this will.

Seattle 2013 DVOA: -25.9%
Seattle 2014 DVOA: -16.8%
Denver 2015 DVOA: -36.0%

And it took a ridiculous November/December run from Seattle last year just to get into the neighborhood.

 

[Fixit]

Denver's D has been carrying an awful offense, perhaps the worst in the entire league. In fact, Manning's three pick sixes alone bump Denver's PPG up from 13 to 16. Think about that for a second, three passes by Manning explain nearly 20% of the points the team has allows the entire season!

If Denver's 13ppg doesn't sway you, perhaps this will.

Seattle 2013 DVOA: -25.9%
Seattle 2014 DVOA: -16.8%
Denver 2015 DVOA: -36.0%

And it took a ridiculous November/December run from Seattle last year just to get into the neighborhood.

Right, that run where Seattle gave up 9 ppg. You can't just handwave that away.

Look, Denver's D has been really good against crap teams through seven games. We can all agree on that. But prior to the game, Green Bay had the best defense in the league, right?

 

[Oswlek]

Right, that run where Seattle gave up 9 ppg. You can't just handwave that away.

Look, Denver's D has been really good against crap teams through seven games. We can all agree on that. But prior to the game, Green Bay had the best defense in the league, right?

When did I hand wave that away? I simply pointed out that it took an incredible late season run for their DVOA to even reach double digits. At this point last year they were average.

I'm straining to find the relevance to Green Bay's defense as well. They were good for the first six games, but nowhere near Denver's level.

 

[Fixit]

When did I hand wave that away? I simply pointed out that it took an incredible late season run for their DVOA to even reach double digits. At this point last year they were average.

I'm straining to find the relevance to Green Bay's defense as well. They were good for the first six games, but nowhere near Denver's level.

Through their first six games, Green Bay was #1 in ppg. Depending upon this week's scores, they or several other teams could take over the top spot. That's how silly it is to put Denver at the level you're putting it right now.

 

[Bruins29]

Sun, Sep 13
vs

Ravens
W 13 - 19
Final


Thu, Sep 17
@

Chiefs
W 31 - 24
Final


Sun, Sep 27
@

Lions
W 24 - 12
Final


Sun, Oct 4
vs

Vikings
W 20 - 23
Final


Sun, Oct 11
@

Raiders
W 16 - 10
Final


Sun, Oct 18
@

Browns
W 26 - 23
Final


Sun, Nov 1 vs Packers W 10 - 29 Final

As stated. 6 wins against crappy teams. With 2 coming just barely and they came close to losing to the Ravens - At home.

 

[Oswlek]

Through their first six games, Green Bay was #1 in ppg. Depending upon this week's scores, they or several other teams could take over the top spot. That's how silly it is to put Denver at the level you're putting it right now.

You're the one who brought up points, I just played along. I find DVOA far more compelling and even before this past week Denver had a double digit edge over Green Bay.

What you don't seem to understand is that I'm not "putting" Denver anywhere. I've said nothing about how good they objectively are or how they will play from here, I've only spoken about how they've performed to date.

 

[Bruins29]

And if the Chiefs and Browns can put 23/24 points up on you then Colts at home can put up 28 on them. If that happened Broncos and Seahawks will have the same D Pts allowed so far for the year.

 

[FourierSeries]

Last year's Denver team was better at this point, but they were never as good on defense as this group is. They also never dominated a good team like this past week, so which version is the "real" one is a critical factor. The Broncos through the first six games is an also ran, the one from Sunday night is perhaps the best team in the league.



Absolutely, he's even admitted to all of that (except the salary cap) numerous times.



No way. This Denver defense is special. Not only have they been better than the 2014 Seattle defense (which was no great shakes until they had one of the easiest QB runs in the history of the game), they've been better than the 2013 Seahawks.

No they haven't.

 

[Fixit]

You're the one who brought up points, I just played along. I find DVOA far more compelling and even before this past week Denver had a double digit edge over Green Bay.

What you don't seem to understand is that I'm not "putting" Denver anywhere. I've said nothing about how good they objectively are or how they will play from here, I've only spoken about how they've performed to date.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I put more stock in the only number that actually determines the outcomes of games.

 

[Bruins29]

FYI the Pats are net net +8.5 PER GAME ahead of the Broncos VS better competition. Their D VS our O

 

[Oswlek]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. I put more stock in the only number that actually determines the outcomes of games.

If they were allowing 24 ppg with a great DVOA, then a reasonable debate seems warranted. In this case, the DVOA is supported by a terrific ppg figure of 13, all done while carrying an albatross of an offense.

Again, I'm not creating a HOF plaque for them or anything, I'm just comfortable recognizing their excellence. I still expect them to tail off as the year goes on and for NE to put up close to 30 on them. Prior to the GB game, I would have said 30 as a bare minimum, but now I'm in a holding pattern until I can figure out how legitimate that performance was.

 

[TommyD4207]

Sun, Oct 4
vs

Vikings
W 20 - 23
Final


As stated. 6 wins against crappy teams. With 2 coming just barely and they came close to losing to the Ravens - At home.

Minnesota's less crappy than you're stating. They're 5-2, a game out of first in the NFC North and a half-game behind Atlanta for the top wildcard spot in the NFC.

They're not crappy. They're decent.