Now that he's signed, do we trade Welker?

[Off The Grid]

He is in their future plans, totally different situations.

Question is will it be 1 year or 3-4 years.

My best guess is the same as my wish: 2 years.

In 2014, Gronkowski and Hernandez come up for HUGE raises, and Welker will be turning 33.

Optimally, I'd love to see us retain him for a couple more years beyond that, if the price is right and he's still dangerous...But I'll burn that bridge when I come to't.

 

[Deus Irae]

“There have been talks, but nothing that’s brightened anything at all,” Welker said. “It’s actually gotten worse.”

When asked to define “worse,” Welker said the offer on the table is less than the two-year, $16 million fully guaranteed contract that was offered to him during the 2011 regular season.

Wes Welker: Contract talks with Pats have ‘gotten worse’ - BostonHerald.com

If Welker's portrayal is accurate, this type of crap is why Brady should have held the Patriots chestnuts to the fire when his time was up, and forced the Patriots to give him a contract that would be better than anything Manning got. It's one thing to be a hardliner. It's another thing to consistently piss on your top players. There's no excuse for this sort of nonsense out of the Patriots.

 

[TyronePoole]

that's absurd if true, what kind of message does that send to guys coming in? Play your ass off and we'll do what we can to screw you anyway. I wonder whose approach this is Jonathan Kraft's? Belichick's?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

See, there are things we agree on as it regards being critical of this team.

They've actually pulled crap with Tommy, or tried to at least, and while he always did the right thing and never publicly called them out (let alone called them names as some have), he arranged for them and the fans to get the message he was pissed and calling them out via sources talking to media. I think Wes may have an advisor in all of this. And they may hear from him directly on the subject, too once activities ramp up. I really hope what he is talking about now isn't the result of say an owners son who can be a little more assertive and opinionated than his dad injecting his disappointment about a catch into the equation.

Breer tweeted about a WR with 131 catches in the last 4 years signing a deal worth $12M over 2 years while Wes had 122 catches last year alone... And then he wondered if concerns had anything to do with being on the JETS when Chrebet hit the wall. Difference being Chrebet was a gamer but never nearly as productive as Welker and he had consistently become so obviously concussed there it was almost criminal they let him keep playing in his last 3-4 seasons...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

that's absurd if true, what kind of message does that send to guys coming in? Play your ass off and we'll do what we can to screw you anyway. I wonder whose approach this is Jonathan Kraft's? Belichick's?

Yeah, they also offered him 2 years and $16M that probably was going to be 3 years at $20M including last year... They do that a lot. It's often why they don't get those early extensions done. They talk new money, not overall money. As Felger says, they have to win the negotiations, not just the games. That means they were really only offering Wes <$7M per. Makes it pretty difficult to close the gap even if he's really only looking for something in the $8M range, which for his level of production is a bargain no matter what you call him. Makes the $6M mistake last season all the more galling...

 

[Brady2Moss]

Just saw this tweet. This is ridiculous if true. I used to think Wes was wanting an enormous deal based on his level of production which was fair but something the Patriots would never agree to due to his age and position. But now it seems like he just wants a reasonably fair deal and we won't even offer him more than 2 years and mid level receiver money?

This is a joke from what I've been reading we have 13 million in cap space right now that were going to roll over probably and 13 million more in dead money that frees up next year. 26 MILLION and we can't devote a little bit of that to Wes for 3 years? I understand Chung and Vollmer are coming up, but they're injury prone. Wes is a PROVEN commodity. If he does gets hurt he'll bust his ass to get back 5 times faster than the other guys even to a detriment to his own well being.

 

[Ivan]

I have no doubt it's true and it's disgraceful. Sucks to see a guy who works and plays as hard as he does get treated like dirt. Unfortunately I think this is Belichick's doing, the Kraft's follow his lead and they would pay him if Belichick signed off on the deal.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Just saw this tweet. This is ridiculous if true. I used to think Wes was wanting an enormous deal based on his level of production which was fair but something the Patriots would never agree to due to his age and position. But now it seems like he just wants a reasonably fair deal and we won't even offer him more than 2 years and mid level receiver money?

This is a joke from what I've been reading we have 13 million in cap space right now that were going to roll over probably and 13 million more in dead money that frees up next year. 26 MILLION and we can't devote a little bit of that to Wes for 3 years? I understand Chung and Vollmer are coming up, but they're injury prone. Wes is a PROVEN commodity. If he does gets hurt he'll bust his ass to get back 5 times faster than the other guys even to a detriment to his own well being.

And that's the part where they have to be careful because it won't play well in the locker room or at the negotiating table when those other guys do come up... Screw pay as you go team friendly deals they can do expecting to cash in on over time. It will be pay me now - up front - because we both know you aren't going to pay me later.

 

[Brady2Moss]

And that's the part where they have to be careful because it won't play well in the locker room or at the negotiating table when those other guys do come up... Screw pay as you go team friendly deals they can do expecting to cash in on over time. It will be pay me now - up front - because we both know you aren't going to pay me later.

Yup exactly. A related situation is why we let this stuff get to the last hour.. I understand with Wes his ACL tear threw a wrench into the situation. But that does not explain Seymour, Mankins, Wilfork, and even ***ante. Reasonable deals could be had if we just extended these guys EARLIER. The only guy we actually extended on time besides Brady was Mayo (Probably the least likely guy to fuss). Now we should get Gronk and Hernandez new deals at the end of next summer AT THE LATEST, or we are screwed. These guys are criminally underpaid and a huge raise now would probably offset some of their contract demands.

This team has a chance to be truly special the next few years, why screw it up because of the "economics" of the situation as I'm sure Belichick is using as his justification for this crap negotiating stance.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I have no doubt it's true and it's disgraceful. Sucks to see a guy who works and plays as hard as he does get treated like dirt. Unfortunately I think this is Belichick's doing, the Kraft's follow his lead and they would pay him if Belichick signed off on the deal.

I'm not so sure. Over time these owners have become more involved than they were in the early years. You see it on draft day in the war room and in little snipets here and there like the discussion about Wilfork where Bill was seen sitting on the couch with an odd smirk on his face as Jonathan talked about the tag as leverage...

The day after Brady won his third ring Bob was on the tube warning that while the team wanted to get an extension done with Brady he had better not want Manning money or it would be a very difficult negotiation. A few months later after the sides had essentially agreed to the general parameters of a deal, we got the Curran piece detailing how the Brady camp was beside itself because they were suddenly being told he would have to take his bonus money in 4-5 increments (he thought he had agreed to 2, which in and of itself had been cooperative not to mention his AAV of $12M considering Manning got $8M more in bonus up front and all at once and $2M more AAV less than a year earlier).

That was when I first started posting here and you'd be amazed how many posters were on Brady for not just taking whatever he was offered and being grateful they were even giving him a new deal... Oddly about a week later news broke that it was all a misunderstanding and the deal was done...on Brady's terms.

I think that is why Tom's last extension also got a little contentious behind the scenes though he ended up setting the bar this time at $18M.

 

[Sciz]

I don't blame the Pats. I wouldn't be in any hurry to extend a 31 year old receiver either. I'd be perfectly happy letting him play under the tag and reestablish his value as opposed to paying him like a 1500 yard receiver even though there's next to no chance that his production remains constant the next few years.

 

[Ring 6]

Wes Welker: Contract talks with Pats have &lsquo;gotten worse&rsquo; - BostonHerald.com

If Welker's portrayal is accurate, this type of crap is why Brady should have held the Patriots chestnuts to the fire when his time was up, and forced the Patriots to give him a contract that would be better than anything Manning got. It's one thing to be a hardliner. It's another thing to consistently piss on your top players. There's no excuse for this sort of nonsense out of the Patriots.

Its a negotiation. Your comments are far too emotional, such as demending a contract that would be more than one someone is going to get in the future without knowing what it will be, therefore taking away cap space that can be used for other players.
If the Patriots are consistently pissing off their top players, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to give a list of the top players who used that in their decision to leave.
The top players who chose to stay, despite being supposedly consistently pissed off by the team include Brady, Moss, Light, Mankins, Seymour, round 1 (and he also said when traded he wanted to stay, so thats not an example on your side) Dillon, Harrison, Vrabel, McGinest many times, Mayo.
Who you got on your side? Overrated Asante? career threatening injured Law?

 

[TyronePoole]

I have no doubt it's true and it's disgraceful. Sucks to see a guy who works and plays as hard as he does get treated like dirt. Unfortunately I think this is Belichick's doing, the Kraft's follow his lead and they would pay him if Belichick signed off on the deal.

I think it's Krafts, we saw their influence in the Belichick doc when it came to contracts and with the Mankins fiasco. As much of a cold persona as Belichick gives off I'd be surprised if he was that involved in contract negotiations because A) he still has to maintain a relationship with the players on a day to day basis and B) will want to be able to divorce himself from that stuff and say it's not up to him when making personnel decisions and dealing with players. The players involved always say "The Patriots..." when it comes to contract negotiations and never "Coch Belichick said this or that..." (except fro Ty Law I guess).

 

[Ring 6]

I have no doubt it's true and it's disgraceful. Sucks to see a guy who works and plays as hard as he does get treated like dirt. Unfortunately I think this is Belichick's doing, the Kraft's follow his lead and they would pay him if Belichick signed off on the deal.

Let's assume it's so for sake of argument. How is it disgraceful?
You must start with the assumption that BB is offering what he feels is good value for his franchise. Do oyu expect him to make decisions he feels are not good and overpay guys because of what they meant to the team in the past?
I don't get how being paid 9.5mill and being negoitated with for a long term deal is being treated like dirt. Are the Patriots supposed to take the approach of 'you've been a good employee, here's a blank check?'.
If BB is wrong in where he is placing the value of Welker then that a football decision not a disgraceful attempt to mistreat a player.

 

[TyronePoole]

Its a negotiation. Your comments are far too emotional, such as demending a contract that would be more than one someone is going to get in the future without knowing what it will be, therefore taking away cap space that can be used for other players.
If the Patriots are consistently pissing off their top players, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to give a list of the top players who used that in their decision to leave.
The top players who chose to stay, despite being supposedly consistently pissed off by the team include Brady, Moss, Light, Mankins, Seymour, round 1 (and he also said when traded he wanted to stay, so thats not an example on your side) Dillon, Harrison, Vrabel, McGinest many times, Mayo.
Who you got on your side? Overrated Asante? career threatening injured Law?

lowering your contract offer after Welker signs the tender borders on bad faith negotiations (if true). Just because you are successful at it doesn't make it right or fair. Moss arguably went crazy thinking the Pats were going to **** him out a contract and you could argue it led to his demise (right or wrong). Branch left and it cost us a Superbowl. I don't think they're "cheap" just tactless when it comes to this and it's a flawed approach that has cost us.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't blame the Pats. I wouldn't be in any hurry to extend a 31 year old receiver either. I'd be perfectly happy letting him play under the tag and reestablish his value as opposed to paying him like a 1500 yard receiver even though there's next to no chance that his production remains constant the next few years.

If they want to have him play out the tag, so be it. This is about the 'negotiations' after they've claimed that they want him around long term. Your opinion on whether that's a good idea is as irrelevant to this aspect of the discussion as my opinion on whether that's a good idea would be.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yup exactly. A related situation is why we let this stuff get to the last hour.. I understand with Wes his ACL tear threw a wrench into the situation. But that does not explain Seymour, Mankins, Wilfork, and even ***ante. Reasonable deals could be had if we just extended these guys EARLIER. The only guy we actually extended on time besides Brady was Mayo (Probably the least likely guy to fuss). Now we should get Gronk and Hernandez new deals at the end of next summer AT THE LATEST, or we are screwed. These guys are criminally underpaid and a huge raise now would probably offset some of their contract demands.

This team has a chance to be truly special the next few years, why screw it up because of the "economics" of the situation as I'm sure Belichick is using as his justification for this crap negotiating stance.

Yeah, but the bizarre thing is Mayo got set the bar money...early. Early deals are supposed to be discounted...at least a little.

Some deals I can't fault them for. You couldn't have traded Asante for a bag of balls in 2005 or the first half of 2006. They were offering him $4.5M when he already wanted $6. Then as they crept up he went off the ledge and wanted highest paid CB money... He had suddenly had a lot of picks, part scheme and part finally learning how to be a ballhawk with hands, but they still knew what he really was wasn't a shutdown LCB.

The new CBA won't allow extensions for rookies until after their 3rd season, and I guarantee you because of their involvement in the formula and Jonathan's recent comments on their situation, there is no way either of those kids gets a new deal before the end of the upcoming season or prior to their contract season.

And they may now want to factor in that anything they do now will effect their career earnings because when those deals expire they will be approaching the dreaded 30... When you take an early deal at a discount you have to believe there will be an opportunity as a result to cash in again with a second big deal, otherwise you wait a year or so and get what you're worth in your prime during it. Seymour took the compromise deal (top tier incrementally for 3 years) because he knew he'd get another deal before he hit 30. What he wasn't sure of was where...turned out to be in Oakland.

 

[mayoclinic]

Its a negotiation.

The Pats seem to have a style in which these negotiations don't take place without growing pains. Sometimes severe ones, as in the case of Mankins. I'm not sure why they do things the way they do, but it seems to be a recurrent pattern. However, it also seems to be a recurrent pattern that they end up rewarding "foundation" players pretty darn well:

- Brady: richest contract in NFL history when he signed his deal in 2010. $18M/year average and $48.5M guaranteed.
- Mankins: 6 year $51M deal for a guard with $30M guaranteed. Not exactly low ball.
- Wilfork: 5 year $40M deal with $25M guaranteed. Became the highest paid nose tackle in the NFL.
- Mayo: 7 year $49.85M deal with $25M guaranteed.

So while the Pats may not have a particularly nice negotiating style, they tend to reward their core players pretty well in the end.

I'm not denying the validity of the report. But I suspect that it's part of the process, and not a true indication of how things will turn out.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

If they want to have him play out the tag, so be it. This is about the 'negotiations' after they've claimed that they want him around long term. Your opinion on whether that's a good idea is as irrelevant to this aspect of the discussion as my opinion on whether that's a good idea would be.

Wes seems to grasp that, which most of them don't. Worst case scenario happens he doesn't see much more than what he's getting even on a long term deal under their scenario of what that constitutes at this juncture... On the other hand if he puts up similar numbers in 2012 someone is going to pay him that other $11.5M one way or another, be it this team on the tag or some other team in signing bonus and guaranteed salary on a even 2-3 year deal...

I'm all for disciplined finances and systems that work. But sometimes these guys take it to unnecessary extremes. Although they don't even do that consistently anymore, which just adds to the frustration...

 

[condon84]

Wes Welker: Contract talks with Pats have &lsquo;gotten worse&rsquo; - BostonHerald.com

If Welker's portrayal is accurate, this type of crap is why Brady should have held the Patriots chestnuts to the fire when his time was up, and forced the Patriots to give him a contract that would be better than anything Manning got. It's one thing to be a hardliner. It's another thing to consistently piss on your top players. There's no excuse for this sort of nonsense out of the Patriots.

So if Brady got a bigger contract than Manning that would help Welker's case?

Check Mayoclinic's post about salaries the Pats have given their top players. It's not like the Pats are cheap. Welker's value to the Pats isn't what you think they are.