No pass rush = one and out

[patsoxfan]

um, someone needs to take a look at BB's history and they might realize bb doesn't draft pass rushers, he gets them in free agency.

Gets them. Who would them be?

 

[Rob0729]

Gets them. Who would them be?

LBs
Mike Vrabel - free agent from the Steelers
Roosevelt Colvin - Free agent from the Bears
Adalius Thomas - Free agent from the Ravens
Eric Moore - Street free agent (most recently with the Rams, but plays both DE and OLB).
Bryan Cox - Free agent from Miami
Chad Brown - Free agent from Seattle (also a bust)
Tully Banta-Cain - Free agent from San Fran (although he was originally drafted by Belichick)
Junior Seau - Free agent from Miami (turned out to be a pretty good pass rusher for an ILB when called upon in 2007).

DEs
Anthony Pleasant - Free agent from the Jets
Bobby Hamilton - Free agent from the Jets
Derrick Burgess - Trade from the Raiders although turned into a bust trade

Belichick has had varying success with these acquistions and most of them were more effective earlier in the decade (not surprising since prior to 2006 and the new CBA there were a lot better quality free agents available and far fewer 3-4 teams).

 

[AzPatsFan]

LBs
Mike Vrabel - free agent from the Steelers
Roosevelt Colvin - Free agent from the Bears
Adalius Thomas - Free agent from the Ravens
Eric Moore - Street free agent (most recently with the Rams, but plays both DE and OLB).
Bryan Cox - Free agent from Miami
Chad Brown - Free agent from Seattle (also a bust)
Tully Banta-Cain - Free agent from San Fran (although he was originally drafted by Belichick)
Junior Seau - Free agent from Miami (turned out to be a pretty good pass rusher for an ILB when called upon in 2007).

DEs
Anthony Pleasant - Free agent from the Jets
Bobby Hamilton - Free agent from the Jets
Derrick Burgess - Trade from the Raiders although turned into a bust trade

Belichick has had varying success with these acquistions and most of them were more effective earlier in the decade (not surprising since prior to 2006 and the new CBA there were a lot better quality free agents available and far fewer 3-4 teams).

Why do people always forget Roman Phifer? He was the first OLB FA pickup, and a darn good one at that...

 

[Deus Irae]

I knew someone would try this angle, but I was waiting because you are making my point.

If the pass rush comes primarily from the OLBs, then all those other issues (CB/S/ILB) shouldn't have affected it much because the OLBs were the same. You can't have it both ways.

The "cop out" paragraph went over my head. Your point seems to illustrate mine, but then you go somewhere else that makes no sense to me.

It's an 11 man lineup, meaning any hole in the 11 will weaken the defense against both pass and run. That does not back up your point, unless you're trying to make the obvious argument that a team's defense will always feel some level of impact from each player.

The same is true on offense, and I used Brady as an example. On offense, it's the QB that is the most important position for the passing game. This is widely understood, but it doesn't mean that Manning/Brady/Brees can toss up 5000 yards armed with a college offense around them, because there's obviously an impact from every player. It means that the way to best insure your performance is to have an elite player at the QB position. WR play impacts the running game, too, as another example, but you're not going to see many people try to use the argument of "the running game would be better if Tate/Welker/etc.. were better blockers, so we didn't need to go out and get a running back.

On defense in a 3-4, The pass rush is centered around the DE and the OLB. You agreed with me earlier, but then you went on about 2005 as if it was something proving the contrary.

 

[Deus Irae]

Isn't that the SAME thing as saying that the Steelers were 1 for 2 in Superbowl appearances while the Pats were 0 for 1 in that same time span....?

No, because you're trying to slip in a 4th year. My point was that the Steelers have clearly passed the Patriots in the past 3 years, which would, naturally, be post-2007.

2008
2009
2010

 

[randomk1]

No, because you're trying to slip in a 4th year. My point was that the Steelers have clearly passed the Patriots in the past 3 years, which would, naturally, be post-2007.

2008
2009
2010

There's really no arguing this. Right now they are the veteran team while we're in transition. Tom Brady is just a beast and making this transition look seamless.

Steelers are a damn fine organization and they do a good job of adding youth into their lineup. They constantly add key pieces.
Woodley,Ziggy Hood,Wallace,Mendenhall,Pouncey,Sanders,Timmons,Cam Heyward will probably be a stud over there and they added some new blood into their biggest weakness- OL,DB.

 

[supafly]

Isn't that the SAME thing as saying that the Steelers were 1 for 2 in Superbowl appearances while the Pats were 0 for 1 in that same time span?

Let's compare the numbers using the COLD HARD FACTS instead of just making assertions.

2007-2010

2007 Pats 16-0, AFCE Champs, unfathomable loss to the Giants in the Superbowl due to Tyree helmet catch. 2-1 in the PS.
2007 Steelers 10-6, AFCN Champs by tiebreaker, knocked out by Jax in the 1st round. 0-1 in the PS.

2008 Pats 11-5, Missed playoffs. Brady goes down for entire season. Cassel takes over.
2008 Steelers 12-4, AFCN Champs, 3-0 in postseason. Win on last minute drive vs the Cardinals.

2009 Pats 10-6, AFCE Champs. 0-1 in postseason. Lost to Baltimore in 1st round. Team's age becomes evident.
2009 Steelers 9-7, Missed playoffs.

2010 Pats 14-2 in a rebuilding season. AFCE Champs. 0-1 in postseason. Lost to Jets in divisional round.
2010 Steelers 12-4. AFCN Champs by tiebreaker. 2-1 postseason. Lost to Packers in Superbowl.

So let's tally that up shall we?

Patriots 2007-2010: 51-13, 3x AFCE titles, 2-3 postseason. 1x Superbowl Appearance.
Steelers 2007-2010: 43-21, 3x AFCN titles (2x by tiebreaker), 5-2 postseason. 2x Superbowl Appearance, 1x Superbowl win.

So the only difference is that the Steelers had 1 more superbowl appearance and of course 1 more win in that time period. Recordwise they are a worse team overall in the regular season, and they eked by on tiebreakers to win 2 of their 3 division titles. The Steelers head to head record vs the Patriots in this time period is also abysmal. Pats have OWNED the Steelers to the tune of 5W-1L with Tom Brady at the helm.

If the Steelers are that much MORE ADEPT at Adaptation why can't they adapt to the Patriots who are by far their kryptonite? And why have the Steelers won FEWER overall games than the Pats in the time period stretching from 2007-Present and had only 1 more Superbowl appearance in that time frame?

COULD IT BE, that the Steelers weren't that much more successful than the Pats except they had 1 CRUCIAL drive go in their favor in the postseason, whereas the Pats didn't? That's what the facts seem to indicate.

Great post. There is also the fact that Pittsburgh has been lucky enough to be able to avoid New England during all 3 of its SB appearances since 2005.

You had the NE loss to Denver in 2005 which set the table for no one to really even challenge Pittsburgh.

You had the ONLY team ever in the 16 game era to miss the playoffs with an 11 win season in 2008--despite the fact that everyone in the world besides the actual Patriot team expected a horrible collapse once Brady went down. The lack of New England again in the playoffs, made it a no-brainer for Pittsburgh to win the AFC.

Then you had the 2010 season where we were done after the loss to the NYJets, once again--giving Pittsburgh a pretty easy road to the SB and an all important home game in the AFCCG one week after the Jets' (admittedly) "biggest game in their franchise history since SB3."

It does not seem to be a coincidence to me that when the 2 teams actually meet in the postseason, New England always prevents them from moving on, yet when New England is out of the way Pittsburgh breathes a sigh of relief and quickly becomes the best team remaining again.

As you pointed out, overall better record...overall head to head isn't even close (It's actually 6-1 in games where Brady has started)

2001 AFCCG
2002 Season opener/Gillette opener
2004 AFCCG
2005 Regular season game--early in season
2007 Regular season game--16-0 season near the end
2010 Regular season game--SNF game on Nov.14th

Only Loss coming in 2004 regular season game on Halloween

-----

Regardless, there's a point to be made about Pittsburgh moving on when they get to avoid NE, and losing when they do play NE. When the Pats lost the NYJ game in January, it was as if Pittsburgh had already won the SB around here. I have never seen a fanbase get so excited over another teams' loss before (as if Pittsburgh accomplished anything with the Pats loss??)

I don't think that Pittsburgh 'passed' the Patriots any more than I think that Indy passed the Patriots--which has been brought up before too. I think all 3 of the teams have represented the AFC every single time since 2002 in the SB besides the 2002 season (OAK).

I think the stats and the head to head matchups prove that.

 

[Rob0729]

Why do people always forget Roman Phifer? He was the first OLB FA pickup, and a darn good one at that...

Didn't actually forget him. I was only listing OLBs originally and threw Seau in at the last minute. I could have added Montey Beisel who they got too to be an ILB although he was a big bust.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Didn't actually forget him. I was only listing OLBs originally and threw Seau in at the last minute. I could have added Montey Beisel who they got too to be an ILB although he was a big bust.

Monte Beisel was signed to be reserve depth at ILB. Then due to illness and injury he was asked to do something beyond his talent level and replace a star at ILB. He has been in the league for a decade doing exactly the job Belichick originally signed him to do. That is a respectable career. Consequently he is not a bust.

 

[Rob0729]

Let's see how the Steelers play over the next few years. Right now their defense is where the Pats' defense was around 2005. Here is their starting defense right now:

NT - Casey Hampton= will be 34 at the start of the season
DE - Brad Keisel or Aaron Smith - 33 on week into the season or 35
DE - Ziggy Hood - 24
OLB - Lamar Woodley - 26
OLB - James Harrison - 33
ILB - James Farrior - 36 (could be replaced by Larry Foote - will be 31 before the start of the season)
ILB- Lawrence Timmons - 24
CB - Bryant McFadden - will be 30 this season
CB - Possibly Ike Taylor - 31
FS - Ryan Clark - will be 32 in October
SS - Troy Polumalu - 30

Both Smith and Polumalu are becoming injury prone. So like the Pats' defense in 2005 and 2006, the Steelers defense can start to get really old fast. Harrison and Polumalu are the cornerstones of the Steelers' defense and both are on the wrong side of 30. Harrison is almost in his mid 30s.

The Steelers will need to overhaul their defense in the next few years. The only long term players they have are Woodley (assuming they can get him to sign a long term deal), Timmons, and Hood. They will likely have to replace up to 8 starters within the next two to three years. Many of these guys they have to replace have been fixtures on the defense for 4-6 years.

It will be interesting to see if the Steelers can revamp their team on the fly like the Pats did. The Steelers fell apart in 2009 without Polumalu. Will they be able to stay Super Bowl competitors if Harrison, Hampton, Farrior, and/or one or two others hit the age wall all at once.

 

[Rob0729]

Monte Beisel was signed to be reserve depth at ILB. Then due to illness and injury he was asked to do something beyond his talent level and replace a star at ILB. He has been in the league for a decade doing exactly the job Belichick originally signed him to do. That is a respectable career. Consequently he is not a bust.

Beisel was a bust in New England. It doesn't matter what he did elsewhere.

I also think Belichick brought Beisel in to ultimately replace Roman Phifer. Whether he was going to start right away is not all that relevant to intentions of what he was going to become. Phifer was not resigned and Beisel was the only guy on the roster who could take the spot. Chad Brown was the guy who ended up thrusted into the starting role when it became apparent that Bruschi wasn't going to make it back until midseason.

 

[Deus Irae]

It will be interesting to see if the Steelers can revamp their team on the fly like the Pats did. The Steelers fell apart in 2009 without Polumalu. Will they be able to stay Super Bowl competitors if Harrison, Hampton, Farrior, and/or one or two others hit the age wall all at once.

Heyward will be interesting to follow, both from the perspective of how well the Steelers adapt into the future and as an insight into the success of the Patriots draft this year.

 

[Ring 6]

Beisel was a bust in New England. It doesn't matter what he did elsewhere.

I also think Belichick brought Beisel in to ultimately replace Roman Phifer. Whether he was going to start right away is not all that relevant to intentions of what he was going to become. Phifer was not resigned and Beisel was the only guy on the roster who could take the spot. Chad Brown was the guy who ended up thrusted into the starting role when it became apparent that Bruschi wasn't going to make it back until midseason.

I think it is wrong to consider a player being brought in for a specific role, or even worst to 'take ______'s place".
No team, and especially this one tries to get guys to fill the role of someone who left, perpetually chasing the past. BB tries to bring in good football players and let the roles be worked out as the team comes together. Every season is different. Way too often people on this board miss the boat on understanding moves because they think in the black and white terms of there being 53 roles and you need to fill them all the same way.

 

[Joker]

I think it is wrong to consider a player being brought in for a specific role, or even worst to 'take ______'s place".
No team, and especially this one tries to get guys to fill the role of someone who left, perpetually chasing the past. BB tries to bring in good football players and let the roles be worked out as the team comes together. Every season is different. Way too often people on this board miss the boat on understanding moves because they think in the black and white terms of there being 53 roles and you need to fill them all the same way.

I just have to say, SOME of the FA acquisitions SEEM to come here not knowing this...case in point A.T....it looked like he thought he was going to reprise the role he played for the Ravens, and bucked when he was asked to do other things that didn't necessarily show up in a stat line...JMHO

 

[captain stone]

It all starts with the Draft, unless it doesn’t. A look at the Patriots in 2011 looks an awful lot like it did after the 2010 draft. Bill Belichick once again focused on everything other than the most glaring weakness on his team, Outside Linebacker. I can hear the groaning now, I can hear the BB apologists saying that there was nobody out there, or that the value was better for the players that they took. So I figured what the hell, let’s look at the stats. In the AFC East, the Jets were number 8 in the league with 40. The Dolphins were number 10 at 39. The Patriots were number 14 with 36, so you think, not that bad? So when you look at points per game and see the Pats at number 8 giving up 19.6 PPG you get a little more comfortable. Then you look at 3rd down percentage and the team gave up league worst 47% conversions. That’s right they gave up 99 third down conversions out of 210 attempts, the second worst was Tampa, Buffalo, Tenn, Cleveland and Jax at 43%. Total yards? 366.5. Passing yards? 30 in the league at 258.5 PPG. Yards per attempt? Number 7 at 5.6 Y/A.
NFL Stats: by Team Category
There is plenty of ammunition for either side of the OLB argument to hang their hat on, I will add one more stat to the mix, and it is very subjective in nature, It is the eyeball test, you know the one that makes you leave the room on third down because you know that the Jets are going to make that first down and you want to beat everybody to the bathroom? The one that makes you take the over on Sunday at 12:30? There is no bigger Patriots suck up than I am, but when I watch a game on Sunday, or Monday or Thursday I know what I am going to see; good defense on first and second downs and a breakdown on third because there wasn’t enough pressure on the QB to make him get rid of the ball, especially when the game is on the line and it comes down to offensive line adrenaline versus pass rush adrenaline. Give me DeMarcus Ware over Nate Solder any day.

I completely, wholeheartedly, unequivocably, 100% agree.

Our pass "rush"(snicker) is, in the words of Jimmy Carter, a disgrace to the human race.

P.S.: And our inability to Kill the QB was once again completely ignored by our resident genius;
instead, he drafts 2 FECKIN RBs in the top-75 & YET ANOTHER TE. Disgraceful.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I completely, wholeheartedly, unequivocally, 100% agree.

Our pass "rush"(snicker) is, in the words of Jimmy Carter, a disgrace to the human race.

I rather think the Carter reference more aptly applies to the quality of the Capt's post.

The difference between the SB clubs and this past club was 36 sacks versus 41 sacks, or a net 5/season. Presumably the starting CBs will be better than rookie McCourty and soph slumping Darius Butler/Rick Arrington. Just having McCourty experienced, and Bodden back for a full season, never mind adding Dowling, should aid the pass rush, but it is hard to quantify.

Wright was lost after 10 games with 5.5 sacks and would have had another 2 or 3 over a full season.

Cunningham was playing for the first time as a rookie, so raise his sack total from 1 to 3-5.

Ninko was starting for the first time, so raise his sack total by 1.

TBC was injured, so raise his sack total to his annual average of 8; and that adds a collective 7- 11 sacks giving the Team 42-48 well above the Super bowl years, even without adding a single new "pass rusher".

Is it any wonder at all, that Belichick thought the Offensive line needed additional youth even more? Or that he "...was fine about his OLBs"?

For that matter do any or you doubt that BB could add via trade, any one of Lawson, Barwin, Wembly or Kiawanuka for the price of a 2nd round draft pick or even less? How would the depth at OLB then appear replacing Murrell? How about adding a pair?

 

[Sciz]

I completely, wholeheartedly, unequivocably, 100% agree.

Our pass "rush"(snicker) is, in the words of Jimmy Carter, a disgrace to the human race.

P.S.: And our inability to Kill the QB was once again completely ignored by our resident genius;
instead, he drafts 2 FECKIN RBs in the top-75 & YET ANOTHER TE. Disgraceful.

So, Mr. Psychic, how does that pass rush look once they actually get on the field? I'm awfully curious, but it seems you already have the answer.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I completely, wholeheartedly, unequivocably, 100% agree.

Our pass "rush"(snicker) is, in the words of Jimmy Carter, a disgrace to the human race.

P.S.: And our inability to Kill the QB was once again completely ignored by our resident genius;
instead, he drafts 2 FECKIN RBs in the top-75 & YET ANOTHER TE. Disgraceful.

A bit of perspective on our "disgrace" of a pass rush:

2001: 39 total sacks. Team leader-7.
2003: 41 total sacks. Team leader-9.5.
2004: 45 total sacks. Team leader-9.5.

2000: 29 total sacks. Team leader-6.
2002: 33 total sacks. Team leader-5.5.
2005: 33 total sacks. Team leader-7.
2006: 44 total sacks. Team leader-8.5.
2007: 46 total sacks. Team leader-12.5.
2008: 30 total sacks. Team leader-8 (Seymour).

2009: 31 total sacks. Team leader-10 (Seymour had 4).
2010: 36 total sacks. Team leader 5.5 (Seymour had 5.5).

The first 3 totals are from our Super Bowl victories. The rest are broken up by other years, and then the last two with our "disgrace" to the human race pass rush.

In fact, we've increased the sack totals in the two seasons since Seymour left, and the team leader has matched or exceeded Seymour's totals since he left. That's not meant as a knock against Seymour, just to show that the pass rush hasn't become significantly worse since he left.

The 36 sacks from last season would rank 6th out of 11 seasons in the BB era. This was compiled with a decimated DL, street FAs starting games, and two first-time starters at OLBs.

Not that it matters. The Pats have the worst pass rush in the history of football to some posters, and no amount of evidence will change that.

 

[Deus Irae]

I rather think the Carter reference more aptly applies to the quality of the Capt's post.

The difference between the SB clubs and this past club was 36 sacks versus 41 sacks, or a net 5/season. Presumably the starting CBs will be better than rookie McCourty and soph slumping Darius Butler/Rick Arrington. Just having McCourty experienced, and Bodden back for a full season, never mind adding Dowling, should aid the pass rush, but it is hard to quantify.

Wright was lost after 10 games with 5.5 sacks and would have had another 2 or 3 over a full season.

Cunningham was playing for the first time as a rookie, so raise his sack total from 1 to 3-5.

Ninko was starting for the first time, so raise his sack total by 1.

TBC was injured, so raise his sack total to his annual average of 8; and that adds a collective 7- 11 sacks giving the Team 42-48 well above the Super bowl years, even without adding a single new "pass rusher".

Is it any wonder at all, that Belichick thought the Offensive line needed additional youth even more? Or that he "...was fine about his OLBs"?

For that matter do any or you doubt that BB could add via trade, any one of Lawson, Barwin, Wembly or Kiawanuka for the price of a 2nd round draft pick or even less? How would the depth at OLB then appear replacing Murrell? How about adding a pair?

TBC's annual average, as you put it, is just over 3 sacks, and nowhere near 8 sacks as you claim.

Mike Wright's 5.5 sacks last season was a career high, so adding numbers makes no sense, especially given the return of Warren.

Ninkovich had 4 sacks last season, a career high, in a full season. His sack totals could go down as easily as they could go up.

Cunningham has only one year of evaluation, so randomly assigning sack numbers to him is nonsensical.

You're basically painting a "best case" type of scenario and considering it to be a baseline.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Yes, I know this. But what made NE's defense special in the early decade was that every guy could play multiple roles and they interacted so well.

Just look at what happened in 2005 when NE was forced to play two green ILBs. Suddenly the pass rush of Willie Mac and Vrabel wasn't quite so dominant because they couldn't play off the ILB skills.

Then, once the ILB position was solidified, the pass rush miraculously rematerialized.

As I said before, it takes more than the OLB to generate a pass rush.

BB knows that the interior pass rush from the NT and/or the ILBs collapses a pocket preventing the opposition QB from stepping up. When he can't, the OLBs have more time and target to get to him...

With a raw secondary and a rookie ILB next to him Mayo hasn't provided much ILB pass rushing. Spikes despite his speed, was a noted ILB collegiate blitzer. I expect that he will start to get his feet under him as a more experienced soph. Not having to shift Wilfork all over the place to cover for injuries will also add to the interior rush. Giving Mike Wright pass rushing opportunities from the NT position on 3rd and long, will also help to collapse the pocket.

All these additional interior pressures will result in a few sacks outright, but a whole lot more opportunities from the "pass rushing OLB/DEs".