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No pass rush = one and out

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by E Belichick Unum, May 9, 2011.

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  1. E Belichick Unum

    E Belichick Unum Rookie

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    It all starts with the Draft, unless it doesn’t. A look at the Patriots in 2011 looks an awful lot like it did after the 2010 draft. Bill Belichick once again focused on everything other than the most glaring weakness on his team, Outside Linebacker. I can hear the groaning now, I can hear the BB apologists saying that there was nobody out there, or that the value was better for the players that they took. So I figured what the hell, let’s look at the stats. In the AFC East, the Jets were number 8 in the league with 40. The Dolphins were number 10 at 39. The Patriots were number 14 with 36, so you think, not that bad? So when you look at points per game and see the Pats at number 8 giving up 19.6 PPG you get a little more comfortable. Then you look at 3rd down percentage and the team gave up league worst 47% conversions. That’s right they gave up 99 third down conversions out of 210 attempts, the second worst was Tampa, Buffalo, Tenn, Cleveland and Jax at 43%. Total yards? 366.5. Passing yards? 30 in the league at 258.5 PPG. Yards per attempt? Number 7 at 5.6 Y/A.
    NFL Stats: by Team Category
    There is plenty of ammunition for either side of the OLB argument to hang their hat on, I will add one more stat to the mix, and it is very subjective in nature, It is the eyeball test, you know the one that makes you leave the room on third down because you know that the Jets are going to make that first down and you want to beat everybody to the bathroom? The one that makes you take the over on Sunday at 12:30? There is no bigger Patriots suck up than I am, but when I watch a game on Sunday, or Monday or Thursday I know what I am going to see; good defense on first and second downs and a breakdown on third because there wasn’t enough pressure on the QB to make him get rid of the ball, especially when the game is on the line and it comes down to offensive line adrenaline versus pass rush adrenaline. Give me DeMarcus Ware over Nate Solder any day.
  2. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    What's your point?
  3. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    rookie OLB's are just not going to make any impact in this system unless that OLB is a top 5 talent and that pats did not have a top 5 pick and even if they did they would trade down so there is no reason to cry over spilled milk it is what it is the pats have average OLB's at best but thats not relly the reason the pats have lost 3 playoff games in a row they have lost in the playoffs cause they cant keep Brady on he's feet so they Drafted a top OT and a G
  4. Why?PJ

    Why?PJ Rookie

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    um, someone needs to take a look at BB's history and they might realize bb doesn't draft pass rushers, he gets them in free agency.
  5. RhodyPatriot

    RhodyPatriot Rookie

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    Deepest draft in years for DL/OLB. BB could have and should have drafted a pass rusher or 2. Signing 1 FA is short term and not the solution. Given the retirements, age and bad blood from Mankins upgrading the OL was a necessity.
    What's troubling is that it seems the O has become the priority with this organization over the past several years and since that has become the case they haven't won a damn thing.
    BTW Tom Brady was upright for the Jets game. His poor performance was not because of the OL play. Brady's inability to find OPEN receivers (they were there) which then produced pouting on the sidelines and lethargy on the field was totally on Brady himself.
    The NY Jets publicly trashtalked Brady and the 2010/2011 TB had no response.
    THAT is troubling!!!!!!!
  6. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    #91 Jersey

    Man, this is getting old. For the last 2 weeks in dozens of posts you have made your opinion well known, yet you continue to pound the table with your "johnnie one note" diatribe. How many threads like this can we expect to see from you before the games start playing? Please give it a rest.

    You even (finally) acknowledge that there IS another side to the issue. Thank you. Yet you keep failing to accept the relevant facts. That over the last 8 games a lot of those negative stats were dramatically improving. You fail to consider the entire FA aspect to the total picture, as if, if we didn't get a pass rusher in the draft we have no where else to go. You fail to recognize the youth of the defense and the the FACT that players imrpove as they are in the league. Cunningham had just one sack, thus that is all he will ever get, well at least in your world. Finally you fail to recognize that in this defense, at least, ONE single player has NEVER been relied on to create QB pressure. Its the ENTIRE team. Even in the years the Pats were constantly among the top 5 in team sacks, they RARELY (actually only once in 2007) had a double digit sacker. Why do we suddenly need one now.

    The Pats need to improve their pass rush. So do about 29 other teams in the league. Tell me something I don't know. So take a deep breath and trust that while your subjective eyeball test tells you we needed to draft pass rushers, BB's clearly didn't . Your constant complaining is making you start to sound like a whinny b!tch And I don't mean to say that pejoratively, just as constructive criticism. ;)
  7. sieglo

    sieglo Rookie

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    This is insightful.
  8. Haley

    Haley Rookie

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    Given that this was the deepest draft in years for DL/OLB, what does this tell you in terms of supply and demand? What players will be most likely available in free agency?

    I would argue that what BB did was very smart. He took players that would be difficult to gain in FA and left the easiest acquisition for that time. Those who took the dice roll on DL/OLB might be regretting it later when they really need that CB and there are none to be had!
  9. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I wonder if this is true of other teams, but I've noticed a certain proportion of Patriots fans who seem to believe that every other team manages to improve in the draft/FA/trades, but not the Patriots. . . .
  10. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First, the Pats were one and done in 2009 and they got killed by the run, not the pass. In fact, Flacco only threw 10 times in that game and only completed 4 of those passes for 34 yards, 0 TDs, and 1 INT. The pass rush had nothing to do with being one and done in 2009.

    Second, last year the Pats shutdown the Jets offense a month earlier winning 45-3. Although Sanchez had a good game in the playoff game, that loss had more to do with how the Jets were able to shutdown the offense than the defense. In fact, the Jets beat the Pats because they didn't deliver a strong pass rush in favor of taking away Brady's passing options with extra guys in coverage.

    Third, as pointed out, Belichick prefers to get pass rushers from free agency over the draft especially at OLB. Both Colvin and Adalius Thomas, who are the two biggest acquistions at OLB of the Belichick era, were free agents.
  11. The Scrizz

    The Scrizz Rookie

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    Yeah because the offense wasn't so far ahead in most games in the 2nd half that teams could do nothing but throw at us. Our entire 2nd halves were pretty much all pass defense which is why we gave up so many yards but were also 2nd and stats and caused so many turnovers.

    How could we be 2nd in sacks in the last 8 games and still give up so many yards? Obviously yards is the only thing that matters, why bother keeping score.

    And I'm pretty sure Demarcus Ware wasn't available at 17. Anybody see Demarcus there?

    Paradoxically, if the pass rush is so important then pass protection must be equally important, hence Solder was a genius pick.

    Why did the Colts lose? They have lots of pass rushers including their 1st rounder from last year who absolutely set the league on fire. And Derrick Morgan. Oh Brandon Graham with his 13 tackles and 3 sacks was a BEAST!

    Carlos Dunlap and Jason Pierre Paul were the only 2 'pass-rushers' that everybody wanted last year that did anything and both were as 4-3 ends.

    How much difference would any of the pass-rushers from last year have made? Probably not as much as Cunningham.

    2009 favs included Larry English, Everett Brown, Kruger, Barwin, Sintim.

    Exactly 2 OLB from the last 2 drafts have helped their teams at all. Orakpo who we had no shot at and Matthews. Did we miss on Matthews? yes, but so did 25 other teams.

    He's really the only player from the last 2 drafts that we both had a shot at drafting and has been a great OLB. That's 1 player.

    Instead of *****ing that we didn't get him, I'd be thankful that we avoided the Jerry Hughes', Larry English's, and other pass-rush stiffs that have come out recently. Maybin? That guy the Jets drafted? Jags trading up to 8 for Harvey right after that guy the Jets drafted? Of course they followed that up in the 2nd with another draft-board fav, Quentin Groves. Why can't we get guys like that?

    Looking at recent results it seems that pass-rushers may be among the hardest players to rate coming out. Maybe because they look so good against crappy competition in college? Who knows, but for every Ware there are 10 top of the draft misses and those failures are franchise killers.

    I for one am thrilled that BB has managed to avoid drafting a bunch of stiffs just because we need a 'pass-rusher'.
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is the atypical shiny beads thread, gee that pass rusher in college would have made us soooo much better, while in reality we have increased our quality and depth in the d secondary..

    Those who bemoan the attention that we give to our Offense obviously do not understand our game, we need to build from the inside out.. thus Solder. The protection of Brady and his heir is paramount, no team goes all that far without someone to protect the blind side.

    We drafted two RB's to replace two older RB's who are on the tail end of their career, they are probably more economical and less injury prone..

    The negativity folks do not see the obvious, BB is rebuilding this team on the fly and with the labor situation in mind.. none of these folks have to contribute on 9/12.. they can develop as the season progresses.

    Compare to those teams like Carolina for example, does anyone think that a qb can step into an NFL qb starting position with no rookie camp, OTA's, no becoming familiar with the culture of the NFL and a specific club and probably an abbreviated TC.. I suspect those DE's who are projected into being a "stud" OLB may need more time and seasoning.

    BTW this was the team that was 14-2 last year..
  13. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As I read the whining and moaning, and the patriots only re-tooling instead of rebuilding, I would have thought that we were below 8-8.

  14. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First time I saw this, I saw "hair." :singing:
  15. plk

    plk Rookie

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    At the end of another, similar rant:

    But somehow I knew he did not really mean it.
  16. eom

    eom Rookie

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    Should there be a pass rush sticky?

    Btw, re: demarcus ware, since so many ppl like to throw his name in there- --- who wants to list his stats on a timeline along withe the coaching staff?
  17. Timbo717

    Timbo717 Rookie

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    This is a good point. One of my guesses is that Belichick is building an OL in Solder, Vollmer, Cannon (hopefully) that (he hopes) will make the fans of other teams complain about THEIR lack of a pass rush.
  18. Sicilian

    Sicilian On the Roster

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    Last year's first playoff games for each team:

    Seattle vs. New Orleans - NO wins the sack battle 2-1, loses game.

    Jets vs. Indy - Tied 1-1 in sacks. Jets win.

    KC vs. Balt - KC wins sack battle 4-3, loses game.

    GB vs. Phi - GB wins sack battle 3-2, wins game.

    Pitt vs. Balt - Balt wins sack battle 6-5, loses game.

    GB vs. Atl - GB wins sack battle 5-2, wins game.

    Sea vs. Chi - Sea wins sack battle 3-2, loses game.

    NE vs. Jets - Jets win sack battle 5-0, win game.

    So, record for teams that had more sacks in either their first game of the playoffs (or their opponents first game) is 3-4.

    "No pass rush = one and out"

    Inconclusive at best.
  19. E Belichick Unum

    E Belichick Unum Rookie

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    When did BB sign a pass rusher in FA? Rosie Colvin is the only one, he signed Thomas and then never used him to rush the passer.

    Everybody is just so ready to do the IBWT thing that I don't understand it, especially when it is obvious that the Patriots are feeling the pressure regarding the draft. The traditional suspects have all written that the great illiterate fandom has no idea what they are talking about and how the draft is only a part of the process, yet the Patriots history says that they will not sign a pass rusher.

    As for my obsession with the pass rush; I am sick of hearing about the Patriots signing a free agent and not doing it, picking up left overs from the scap heap and hoping they help. But I am especially sick of hearing about the Patriots having more sacks in the second half of the season and then having a fall down game like the Ravens two years ago and the Jets last year. BTW, the Ravens game was all about pass rush, and the Ravens pass rush was immense that day.

    Until somebody can convince me that the Patriots have one or don't need one, I will try to keep it at the top of the discussion. This team is so close to winning another SB, a pass rush covers up a whole lot of issues elsewhere.
  20. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 Rookie

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    it was not a deep Draft for pass rushers it was a deep Draft for DL not Seymour type 3-4 DE's was any of them better then whats on the roster now we dont know BB did not think so... as far as the pats Drafting more for offense Jerod Mayo Jermaine Cunningham Brandon Spikes Patrick Chung Devin McCourty all starters Drafted over the last 3 years and there could be more staters this year.

    the only thing i could say about the jets trashtalking Brady and the pats is they talked the talk and walked the walk they out played and really out coached the pats a good pass rush would not have helped when you call a bad fake punt with 3 min left in the 2th QT and only down by 3 points
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