No pass rush = one and out

[Oswlek]

If he had come to grips with it, he wouldn't have been largely ignoring it in the first 2 rounds even up through this year. I used to defend him on this during debates with RayClay, because Belichick's way was still working up to 2007, but he's been stuck there while the Steelers have adapted, and we've seen the Steelers pass the Patriots as the beast of the AFC partly as a result.

Since 2008 BB has invested a first, two seconds and a third in the LB position, as well as getting lucky with two UDFA who are clearly NFL caliber. To say he is overlooking or ignoring the position seems bizarre to me.

Call me when the Patriots don't make the Steelers their personal b!tch every year and I'll conceed they've passed NE by...

 

[supafly]

I like the optimism most of you guys have here so call me back when we don't get embarrassed at home by Mark ******* Sanchez. I'll gladly eat a dish of crow.

I appreciate your frustration, I honestly do. I can understand where you're coming from etc.

Just remember that the improvement by the other 2 defensive areas + the continued development by Cunningham should lead to a more positive outcome. And that isn't even bringing up Ninkovich/TBC, who may benefit also of course.

There's still the possibility for you to get your 'bigger name' free agent signing too, you never know. The rule changes to the free agency game may open up more OLB's than you think right now.

Regardless of any of it, you have to learn to trust Belichick. He has proven himself, and knows all of the intricate details that we are not privy to. And even if you don't trust him, drafting a 1-2 rd OLB this year likely would not have meant much....because of the learning curve and intricate defensive scheme. I'd imagine BB isn't sitting there oblivious to everything. He's well aware of the situation, and this is how he chose to address it.

 

[Oswlek]

I like the optimism most of you guys have here so call me back when we don't get embarrassed at home by Mark ******* Sanchez. I'll gladly eat a dish of crow.

Edit: Too confrontational. Sorry.

Yes, and the fact that NE was playing with one healthy DL who started the year on the opening roster had nothing to do with that, right?

Or the fact that NE's offense turned a quick 14-0 lead into a meager 3-0 lead with nary a defensive Jet play being made, that had nothing to do with anything right?

Or the fact that NE's secondary played horribly; inconsequential, right?

 

[randomk1]

You're still not making any sense. I have loads of precedent that NE's LBs (not just their OLBs, the entire unit is responsible for impoving the pass rush) will improve. Where is your historical precendent that a rookie OLB will solve all the pass rush woes?

Won't an healthier secondary and DL help things along? Why must everything come down to an OLB picking in the first two rounds?

All I can say is, thankfully BB has a more holistic approach to roster building than you do.

I'm not saying the problem is solely our OLB. The discussion in this thread was on the OLB's.

I can't exactly give you a historical precedent since we hardly draft players at the position. We drafted Cunningham and he looks like the only guy with some serious potential. If i looked around the league i could give you some more..there's a guy from 2009 you might be familiar with.

 

[AzPatsFan]

You don't see the correlation between an aging QB and fixing a big need for the team to make a championship run?

Do you honestly believe all of our problems last year on defense came down to a lack of experience and injuries? Lack of talent isn't a problem?

Ninko,Banta-Cain,Moore are all seasoned pro's....i suggest you stop holding your breath on them becoming the next James Harrison.

What a reference. James Harrison didn't become James Harrison until his 9th or 10th year in the league!

I have much better hope for Cunningham as a sophomore than as a rookie,and even more hope in 2012. Ninko has the familiar earmarks of a Vrable, who was not much until his 5th pro season. Belichick may well be planning on a situational substitution platooning, of Ninko and TBC.

There is no doubt that TBC has two or three seasons of 8+ sacks, so he can rush the passer. It's his run D that is deficient. There is no doubt that Ninkovitch can set the edge against the run. He is also not a hopeless case at pass rushing although, he may never be a double digit sacker.

If I were Belichick and concerned with the twilight years of Brady, I'd not draft an OLB, I would trade for one, or sign one in FA. He has been known to do that, you know. Roman Phifer, Rosey Colvin, Mike Vrabel, Adalius Thomas, and Ken Burgess come to mind. Doesn't that make much more sense if you are looking for someone to help in 2011 and 2012, instead of 2013, and 2014?

You haven't even given him a chance; and there is a lot of talent out there. In Kiawanuka, and Lawson and trades for Barwin, both of whom have lost their jobs to shiny, high draft picks and should be available, and Kamerion Wembly. FYI, the Raiders got Wembly for a 3rd rounder, why wouldn't they let him go for a 3rd and 4th pair, or getting their 2nd back?

 

[Oswlek]

I'm not saying the problem is solely our OLB. The discussion in this thread was on the OLB's.

I can't exactly give you a historical precedent since we hardly draft players at the position. We drafted Cunningham and he looks like the only guy with some serious potential. If i looked around the league i could give you some more..there's a guy from 2009 you might be familiar with.

Yes, and I can point to about 10 flops for every one of him.

That doesn't mean you should never pick an OLB, of course. But, it does mean that simply because a player has an OLB or DE next to his name is no assurance of improvement to NE's pass rush.

Frankly, I must be an idiot, because it seems to me that BB has a plan for his linebacker crew and is working it. NE still needs one more OLB, barring a trip to the fountain of youth for Moore, but if you take a step back you'll see the group is rounding into shape.

 

[Deus Irae]

Since 2008 BB has invested a first, two seconds and a third in the LB position, as well as getting lucky with two UDFA who are clearly NFL caliber. To say he is overlooking or ignoring the position seems bizarre to me.

Call me when the Patriots don't make the Steelers their personal b!tch every year and I'll conceed they've passed NE by...

OLB and DE, Oswlek, that's what's being talked about, OLB/DE for the pass rush.

Also, the Steelers have been to the Super Bowl two of the past 3 seasons, and won once. The Patriots haven't won a single playoff game in that time. Your concession is not needed, because the fact is obvious, whether you admit to it or not.

 

[Oswlek]

OLB and DE, Oswlek, that's what's being talked about, OLB/DE for the pass rush.

Also, the Steelers have been to the Super Bowl two of the past 3 seasons, and won once. The Patriots haven't won a single playoff game in that time. Your concession is not needed, because the fact is obvious, whether you admit to it or not.

It takes an entire defense - including the secondary - to create a pass rush.

Looking at OLB/DE as the sole producers of a pass rush is the biggest problem on this board.

 

[Oswlek]

As for the Steelers, I've come to realization that playoff success has more to do with luck than fans like to admit. Yes, that includes the great Patriot squads, who could easily have lost playoff games against Oak, Pitt, StL, TN, Car and SD.

NE was clearly a better team than Pitt in the 2010 regular season, but played a crap game when it counted most. So be it. But I don't put much stock in the "passed them by" arguments when many people - including you - were making the case after 2009 that NE wasn't one of the elite teams any more. And I certainly have no fear of facing the Steelers.

 

[randomk1]

It takes an entire defense - including the secondary - to create a pass rush.

Looking at OLB/DE as the sole producers of a pass rush is the biggest problem on this board.

I'm pretty sure the Cowboys secondary is a ******* mess.

The best pass rushing teams are the ones that get it from guys that beat their men 1 vs 1,there's no denying this.

 

[Oswlek]

I'm pretty sure the Cowboys secondary is a ******* mess.

The best pass rushing teams are the ones that get it from guys that beat their men 1 vs 1,there's no denying this.

No, there is no denying this.

But there is also no denying that NE is developing their pass rush in the same mold as they had in 2003, and people seemed OK with it then.

 

[Deus Irae]

It takes an entire defense - including the secondary - to create a pass rush.

In the 3-4, pass rush is generated mostly with the OLB/DE positions. When you start involving the other positions a lot, you're either blitzing, which is not what we're talking about, or scheming either for diversity or (more often) making up for weaknesses in the DE/OLB spots.

Looking at OLB/DE as the sole producers of a pass rush is the biggest problem on this board.

I've not seen one person claim that only OLB/DE can be involved in a pass rush. However, as I noted above, that's where it starts and ends in the 3-4.

 

[AzPatsFan]

In the 3-4, pass rush is generated mostly with the OLB/DE positions. When you start involving the other positions a lot, you're either blitzing, which is not what we're talking about, or scheming either for diversity or (more often) making up for weaknesses in the DE/OLB spots.

Diversity counts for a lot...

I've not seen one person claim that only OLB/DE can be involved in a pass rush. However, as I noted above, that's where it starts and ends in the 3-4.

No, I am afraid a fellow with pretty good credentials disagrees with you...

 

[Oswlek]

In the 3-4, pass rush is generated mostly with the OLB/DE positions. When you start involving the other positions a lot, you're either blitzing, which is not what we're talking about, or scheming either for diversity or (more often) making up for weaknesses in the DE/OLB spots.

I've not seen one person claim that only OLB/DE can be involved in a pass rush. However, as I noted above, that's where it starts and ends in the 3-4.

Yes, I know this. But what made NE's defense special in the early decade was that every guy could play multiple roles and they interacted so well.

Just look at what happened in 2005 when NE was forced to play two green ILBs. Suddenly the pass rush of Willie Mac and Vrabel wasn't quite so dominant because they couldn't play off the ILB skills.

Then, once the ILB position was solidified, the pass rush miraculously rematerialized.

As I said before, it takes more than the OLB to generate a pass rush.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, I know this. But what made NE's defense special in the early decade was that every guy could play multiple roles and they interacted so well.

Just look at what happened in 2005 when NE was forced to play two green ILBs. Suddenly the pass rush of Willie Mac and Vrabel wasn't quite so dominant because they couldn't play off the ILB skills.

Then, once the ILB position was solidified, the pass rush miraculously rematerialized.

As I said before, it takes more than the OLB to generate a pass rush.

There were a lot more problems than ILBs in 2005. Law was gone and the Patriots were forced to start a rookie and a 2nd year player at CB while Harrison was missing all but 2 games in the season. The offense wasn't able to get the lead and then grind out the clock the way it had in 2004, either, which led to a different defensive dynamic.

And the "it takes more" is a cop out. It's 11 players on defense, after all, just as it's 11 players on offense. It takes more than a great QB to have a great passing game, too. That doesn't mean you get rid of Brady or decide not to look for a top QB to pull the trigger.

And one look at the sack totals shows that they were mostly a product of the OLB/DE positions.

 

[Oswlek]

There were a lot more problems than ILBs in 2005. Law was gone and the Patriots were forced to start a rookie and a 2nd year player at CB while Harrison was missing all but 2 games in the season. The offense wasn't able to get the lead and then grind out the clock the way it had in 2004, either, which led to a different defensive dynamic.

And the "it takes more" is a cop out. It's 11 players on defense, after all, just as it's 11 players on offense. It takes more than a great QB to have a great passing game, too. That doesn't mean you get rid of Brady or decide not to look for a top QB to pull the trigger.

And one look at the sack totals shows that they were mostly a product of the OLB/DE positions.

I knew someone would try this angle, but I was waiting because you are making my point.

If the pass rush comes primarily from the OLBs, then all those other issues (CB/S/ILB) shouldn't have affected it much because the OLBs were the same. You can't have it both ways.

The "cop out" paragraph went over my head. Your point seems to illustrate mine, but then you go somewhere else that makes no sense to me.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

If he had come to grips with it, he wouldn't have been largely ignoring it in the first 2 rounds even up through this year. I used to defend him on this during debates with RayClay, because Belichick's way was still working up to 2007, but he's been stuck there while the Steelers have adapted, and we've seen the Steelers pass the Patriots as the beast of the AFC partly as a result.

Geesh,

The male bovine dung runs deep.

Since 2007 didn't you miss the fact that like the all world QB went down with an ACL in 2008 and that's a two year recovery?

Did you miss the fact half the Patriots snaps were taken by rookies/ second year players?

Look at the roster, the Steelers have been adapt at keeping their roster together for a run. In our dynasty years, we had a cohesive team in their prime.

They got old and a wholesale replacement happened. Now look at the Steelers geriatric ward.

Seems the common for SB XLII and XLV was the losers had an old and slow defense.

 

[patfanken]

I am happy to see that although there are many diverse opinions being reflected here; there seems to be a rising recognition about the way the pass rush is generated in the Patriots system of defense. It is less about relying on individuals trying to beat their blocker one on one, and more about the COORDINATED movement of 11 players attacking the offense.

This consensus of thought should help us understand why BB makes certain personnel decisions both in the draft and FA. What I think most people DON'T understand is that BB makes these decisions with the understanding that he could very well end up being wrong.

I think what REALLY is BB's genius, is that recognition, and the ability to acknowledge mistakes and move on, That's one of the reasons we seem to always have excess draft picks, because although he's been relatively better than the rest in picking draft picks, he knows that a fair number are also going to end up being less than expected. After that its simply a numbers game. BB has more starters,. all pros, etc, by and large because he gets more picks than anyone else. To use a BBism. "some are better than others", but because you had more shots at the target, you are much more likely to get hits.

I think we have now come to grips with why OLB seems to be a black hole to the Pats on draft day, with only 2 picks in the BB era coming in the first 3 rounds. One never really got on the field and the other.....so far, so good. When you consider the bust rate of these 3-4 OLB tweeners, at 50% he's doing pretty good. But he also recognizes that if he had picked more of these players, his bust rate would be much worse

The bottom line here is that if you look at the number of sacks the Pats got in their best years, compared to where we were last season, and in the other years of mediocrity (at least for us ) There is a direct correlation, although adding just 5-7 more a year would seem to be all that necessary to get us back to where we were in the "glory years"

I don't see why a defense that is adding THREE significant pieces to the roster (Boddin, Dowling, and TWarren) cannot make that SHORT leap. Especially when you consider the youth that was there last season and the natural progression that they SHOULD make going into this one.....and that is even BEFORE we think about FA

So despite the depressing stats that can be dredged up from last season. Despite the disappointment of how the season ended. I think that there is a LOT of reasons to think positively about what we should see, when/if this season finally gets going. We are going to be better in a lot areas and we really need to be, because other teams are getting better as well. Be prepared. Teams are going to be adding a lot of good players to their rosters once/if FA opens. Hopefully we will get our share.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Also, the Steelers have been to the Super Bowl two of the past 3 seasons, and won once. The Patriots haven't won a single playoff game in that time. Your concession is not needed, because the fact is obvious, whether you admit to it or not.

Isn't that the SAME thing as saying that the Steelers were 1 for 2 in Superbowl appearances while the Pats were 0 for 1 in that same time span?

Let's compare the numbers using the COLD HARD FACTS instead of just making assertions.

2007-2010

2007 Pats 16-0, AFCE Champs, unfathomable loss to the Giants in the Superbowl due to Tyree helmet catch. 2-1 in the PS.
2007 Steelers 10-6, AFCN Champs by tiebreaker, knocked out by Jax in the 1st round. 0-1 in the PS.

2008 Pats 11-5, Missed playoffs. Brady goes down for entire season. Cassel takes over.
2008 Steelers 12-4, AFCN Champs, 3-0 in postseason. Win on last minute drive vs the Cardinals.

2009 Pats 10-6, AFCE Champs. 0-1 in postseason. Lost to Baltimore in 1st round. Team's age becomes evident.
2009 Steelers 9-7, Missed playoffs.

2010 Pats 14-2 in a rebuilding season. AFCE Champs. 0-1 in postseason. Lost to Jets in divisional round.
2010 Steelers 12-4. AFCN Champs by tiebreaker. 2-1 postseason. Lost to Packers in Superbowl.

So let's tally that up shall we?

Patriots 2007-2010: 51-13, 3x AFCE titles, 2-3 postseason. 1x Superbowl Appearance.
Steelers 2007-2010: 43-21, 3x AFCN titles (2x by tiebreaker), 5-2 postseason. 2x Superbowl Appearance, 1x Superbowl win.

So the only difference is that the Steelers had 1 more superbowl appearance and of course 1 more win in that time period. Recordwise they are a worse team overall in the regular season, and they eked by on tiebreakers to win 2 of their 3 division titles. The Steelers head to head record vs the Patriots in this time period is also abysmal. Pats have OWNED the Steelers to the tune of 5W-1L with Tom Brady at the helm.

If the Steelers are that much MORE ADEPT at Adaptation why can't they adapt to the Patriots who are by far their kryptonite? And why have the Steelers won FEWER overall games than the Pats in the time period stretching from 2007-Present and had only 1 more Superbowl appearance in that time frame?

COULD IT BE, that the Steelers weren't that much more successful than the Pats except they had 1 CRUCIAL drive go in their favor in the postseason, whereas the Pats didn't? That's what the facts seem to indicate.

 

[Rob0729]

A few things:

1.) As to players like Ninkovitch and Moore getting better, all I have to point to is players like TBC and Willie Mac to show that picking up this system doesn't happen overnight. TBC had 3 sacks his first three years combined here and 5 sacks his fourth and 10 his fifth (granted there was three years between his fourth year and and fifth year). No he never turned into a great starter, but other than last year he has gotten progressively better each year in the system. Willie McGinest took about a year and a half to properly transition from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB and he was a six year veteran. Even Mike Vrabel took some time where he went from 3 sacks in 2001 to 9.5 in 2003 eventhough he played three fewer games in 2003 than he did in 2001.

Of course there is the potential for Ninkovitch and Moore to get better (especially Moore who showed brief flashes of excellence eventhough he was injured and didn't join the team until December 3rd). There are no guarantees he will.


2.) I am still trying to figure out how the Steelers have adapted to the NFL. Other than Roethlisberger, I don't see a lot of differences from the team that one the Super Bowl in 2008 from the team that continuously lost to the Pats in the early 2000s in the playoffs. They are still a blitz happy defense being run by **** LeBeau who has been running the same defense for a decade. On offense they are still a run oriented offense. They still build through the draft. Their defensive strengths are still their LBs and Troy Polumalu. This team is no different than the team that Bill Cowher left. The only time they get to the Super Bowl is when they don't have to face the Pats in the playoffs because Belichick has an incredible record vs. the Steelers (6 and 2 with one of the losses being in the Brady-less year). The Steelers have strived on consistency, not adaptation.

3.) The Pats went 14-2 last year in what most considered a rebuilding year. How many teams go through a rebuilding year and have the best regular season record in football. Yes, youth and inexperience hurt this team in the playoffs along with Brady having a bad game and a massive injury bug at a key position on defense. The Pats have completely revamped their defense in the last two seasons. Only Wilfork and Warren remain from the Dyansty years and only a few others remain from the near perfect season (Meriweather and Mike Wright are the only ones I can think of).

That doesn't even talk about how the offensive backfield was completely revamped (BJGE was a first year starer and Woodhead started the year on the Jets). The WRs have been revamped (only Welker is the only WR remaining from the near perfect season). They also had three new TEs this season with two of them being rookies.

Most teams when they revamp like that fall to 5-11 or 6-10 range. The Pats have remained competitive during retooling. I personally think the Pats have done a very good job at adapting. Most teams that get old like the Pats did several years back become mediocre teams for at least a year or two. The Pats remained competitive. Even the Steelers have had mediocre years while they revamped parts of their team. Only the Colts have remained nearly as consistent as the Pats and they only have one ring to show for that consistency.

Talk to me in a year or two. If the Pats are still losing in the first round of the playoffs or not making the playoffs at all, then we can start to question Belichick's lack of adaptation skills. But the guy has basically replaced most of this team except for the QB position and still remained a division winner and Super Bowl contender.