New Whitlock Article

[ligermark]

Now that's simply not true, and no need to muddy up the argument with it. (Mark Chmura? Barret Robbins? Bill Romanowski? Etc., etc.)

That's three names over the last EIGHT years. I used the word "almost" for a reason. I believe it's true that of the 40 NFL players arrested in 2006, 39 were black (the exception being Jared Allen). That stat may not be exactly right, but at worst it's very close.

The most important point is to realize that the intent is not to insult black people. Whitlock's primary objective is to get blacks to take responsibility for their actions and realize that they have to do better.

 

[Aggie290]

I'm usually not a Whitlock fan as he seems to bring race into everything but I found this article for the most part well written. I've had the same feeling in regards to the hip hop culture (Not the music) and how it affects professional sports. We've already seen the gangsta thugs almost ruin the NBA and while it's a smaller problem in the NFL, it still exists.

I do think he misses the point by classifying it as a race issue though. The Hip hop / Gangsta subculture is no longer defined by race. Black, White, Asian, Indian etc... all have card carrying members in this societal problem that promotes and even deifies criminal and antisocial behavior.

 

[LoveDemPats]

I think the intelligence slant would also be looked at as stereotyping. I think the main crux is the whole "being led" idea. I just think that African Americans are taught, and learn from day 1 not to trust "the Man", and by that I mean the authorities. I feel like this is just an extention of that personna. It's a trust issue.

Ummm, how is being smart a stereotype?

Please, I need to hear this. Am I reading you incorrectly?

Being smart is not, from my accounts in life, a race specific attribute. I mean, there are people from each race who feel that intelligence is a desirable quality to have. No?

Am I wrong?

 

[PatriotsReign]

Pretty brave article, actually. It's a pretty amazing stat that the two best teams in football are the two whitest. Not something you EVER see brought up (unlike the constant discussion of the two black coaches in the last Superbowl). Of course, "whitest" is relative. Both teams have a majority of African-American players, including many of their top stars.

It's an interesting hypothesis from Whitlock that both teams' personnel strategy focuses on "leadable" players. But he makes a mistake, IMO, facilely blaming hip-hop. I don't think it's that simple. Take Willie McGinest, a player who was recruited by Cleveland to bring focus and a winning attitude to the locker room. Willie runs his own hip-hop record label as well as a management firm in partnership with Snoop Dogg! What Whitlock is really talking about is selfishness and immaturity, which he tosses into a cultural bucket with other stuff he doesn't happen to like.

Great comments on a great article. I must say Whitlock is not afraid to ruffle some feathers. No white person could have written this and gotten away with it.

It honestly hurt me (a white man) to have to read his facts the Pats & Colts. I don't want to have to read "racial" issues anymore. I'm tired of black vs. white comparisons and I just wish it wasn't an issue in our culture. But I'd be sticking my head in the sand if I let myself believe its not an issue.

The only part I'm not sure i agree with is hip hop is a big part of ALL our young people now, black & white. My gut feeling tells me this is something black Americans need to settle on their own. leaders need to step up just as Whitlock has done here.

I know if I was a black man, the last thing I'd want to hear is some white guy telling me I'm a cancer because of my hip hop culture...just my opinion.

 

[PatriotsReign]

I think the intelligence slant would also be looked at as stereotyping. I think the main crux is the whole "being led" idea. I just think that African Americans are taught, and learn from day 1 not to trust "the Man", and by that I mean the authorities. I feel like this is just an extention of that personna. It's a trust issue.

Good points HBM! But given your "don't trust the Man" theory, wouldn't it make sense that a black player who plays for a black coach would make damn sure he stays in line? If I'm a black player and I get the opportunity to play for a black coach, there is no "Man" to rebel against, is there?

 

[PatriotsReign]

I don't agree with everything in his article............Chad Johnson is very talented and he is part of the solution not the problem in Cincy. Do you think for one second given the chance that Belichick wouldn't sign Chad if he was a FA?

I think Dungy and Belichick just go for players that fit their system. Mind you the part I do agree with is they don't stand for me me players. The make up of the roster just happens to be coincedence in my opinion.

They do prefer the college gradutes who do show more intellect then the Pac Man Jones type.

You made me realize, the opinion that matters the most, are the opinions of black Americans who read this. After all, any opinion of a white man like me is going to made from a white perspective.

I think this would be a good issue to be discussed behind closed doors by black NFL players & coaches. Their opinions are the only ones that matter. Whatever white society thinks is irrelevant given that no one is going to change how they act based upon white man's opinion. I think that would just lead to more rebellion.

Sure we have a right to our opinions, but they are meaningless in initiating any meaningful changes.

 

[He Ban Me]

Ummm, how is being smart a stereotype?

Please, I need to hear this. Am I reading you incorrectly?

Being smart is not, from my accounts in life, a race specific attribute. I mean, there are people from each race who feel that intelligence is a desirable quality to have. No?

Am I wrong?

Well, my point was it is exactly the opposite, I was responding to this:


"How bout this one, (as was stated by one of the posters - about the graduation rates) maybe intelligence is a factor? Like, if you are smart, you have a good chance of sticking with a team. And, if you are fast, and smart, and diligent, and you have the heart of a lion, then you may even be,..."

IMO, the African American "leaders" will see this statement as a stereotype, that African Americans are less intelligent, or "dumb" compared to their "European American" counterpart.

 

[He Ban Me]

Good points HBM! But given your "don't trust the Man" theory, wouldn't it make sense that a black player who plays for a black coach would make damn sure he stays in line? If I'm a black player and I get the opportunity to play for a black coach, there is no "Man" to rebel against, is there?

Any African American owners in the League? In the end, it all comes back to "The Man". Marv, Herm, Lovie, are just cogs in the wheel, who are employed by "The man".

 

[patchick]

Good points HBM! But given your "don't trust the Man" theory, wouldn't it make sense that a black player who plays for a black coach would make damn sure he stays in line? If I'm a black player and I get the opportunity to play for a black coach, there is no "Man" to rebel against, is there?

I think by far the most interesting case is Larry Johnson, and Whitlock whiffs in a big way by missing this juicy angle. Remember how Johnson blamed all his problems with **** Vermeil on race? Vermeil, as a white man, simply couldn't understand what it was like to be black, and it was only natural for black players to bristle at taking orders for white coaches. Now that Herm Edwards was coaching, see, everything was awesome and he could run harder and faster with a brother watching over him.

Now, looky here, Johnson is a malcontent for his black coach. Gosh Larry, what happened? Could it be that you're really just, you know, a troublemaking jerk?

Is this a "hip-hop" attitude problem? Larry Johnson's no gangsta off the streets. He grew up in a comfortable 2-parent household in State College, PA where his dad was a football coach. Johnson tried to drag in race, and racial-based cultural differences, when what he really had was a character and work ethic problem.

PacMan Jones is a poster child for hip-hop attitude gone wrong. Larry Johnson is something else: a poster child for a world of spoiled, selfish kids who look anywhere but at themselves for the source of a problem. And Michael Vick is the what happens when those two strains collide.

 

[Gopats!!!]

Good points HBM! But given your "don't trust the Man" theory, wouldn't it make sense that a black player who plays for a black coach would make damn sure he stays in line? If I'm a black player and I get the opportunity to play for a black coach, there is no "Man" to rebel against, is there?

A lot of times successful african americans are seen as "uncle toms, sell outs and not "really" black." Not sure this answers your question, just an observation. In addition, the whole "the man" argument is just an excuse to act how you want to act anyway.

In relation to many of the comments, I think some people are looking at hip hop music and not "hip hop culture". I do not believe music makes people act out, become destructive, etc, and I don't believe Whitlock was saying it was the musics' fault.

It was a very brave article and made some very interesting points. I don't think there are many writers who would dare touch the subject/observations with a 10 ft pole. Obviously a white guy saying something similiar would be treated like Limbaugh was with his McNabb comments, so Whitlock has a little more freedom.

 

[Franchise12]

this is a crap article. first of all there thousands of players in this league thats immersed in this "hip hop culture" that don't threaten the integrity of this league. mcginest grew up with snoop dogg and own a record label "55 entertainment" is he a threat,no. Many of the players we've won SB's with were immersed in the "culture" were they threats? only on the field against the opposition. the truth is a majority of players are into the hip hop culture but the only ones that get attention are the minimal percentage of them that get get in trouble. how come you dont hear about the great things warwick dunn, tomlinson, ed reed, hines ward, roy willams, rosevelt colvin, etc do. because you get more attention with crap like this that are tools to solidify peoples fears and insecurities about a "culture" that people have no clue about. its like blaming rock music for these school shootings, thats crap,the blame if anything is on American culture, we are a very violent culture. thats taking a look in the mirror. As an African American I took very little from that article as fact.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Typical great column from Whitlock.

Fortunately, I've been spared reading Whitlock columns for quite a while now. Since he was banned at ESPN, I lost listening to the person I most disagree with.

The only thing typical about a column from Whitlock is that when he's expressing a strong opinion, he's wrong.

 

[LoveDemPats]

Well, my point was it is exactly the opposite, I was responding to this:

IMO, the African American "leaders" will see this statement as a stereotype, that African Americans are less intelligent, or "dumb" compared to their "European American" counterpart.

Huh????????

I think that a very prominent African American leader stated quite emphatically that he "dreamed of a time when people would be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin." MLK.

I am not trying to preach. These topics begin to get rather muddled when people forget this basic tenent.

My post talked about a universal desire as far as I am concerned. To be intelligent is a good thing.

Can you name one African American leader who would say that a certain race is less intelligent? Your statement is diametrically oposed to what King said.

My post removes all the talk about music, and hip hop culture, and boils the issue down to a very basic tenent that we all "dream" of. Regardless of color, or musical proclivity, or length of hair, or gender or whatever.

If you are smart, and hardworking, and respectful of your coworkers and bosses, (regardless of skin, or musical tastes, or video game enjoyment, or movies that you watch) you will have a much better chance of being in a corporation, or playing on team. And, if you are talented and have the heart of a lion, and you understand teamwork, perhaps you can be a patriot.

Whitlock did not need to talk about race, or music, or culture or what ever. He used these terms because he wanted his piece to be sexy, and he knew that he could get away with it without feeling the wrath. And, it is a trap. Many people will use his article to openly label and stereotype more people. Well, act as if you know all you want. In this country, it comes down to the individual.

It is a person's actions.

The content of his character that bleed forth these actions.

Not the color of his skin.

It ain't rocket surgery here.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Huh????????

I think that a very prominent African American leader stated quite emphatically that he "dreamed of a time when people would be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin." MLK.

I am not trying to preach. These topics begin to get rather muddled when people forget this basic tenent.

My post talked about a universal desire as far as I am concerned. To be intelligent is a good thing.

Can you name one African American leader who would say that a certain race is less intelligent? Your statement is diametrically oposed to what King said.

My post removes all the talk about music, and hip hop culture, and boils the issue down to a very basic tenent that we all "dream" of. Regardless of color, or musical proclivity, or length of hair, or gender or whatever.

If you are smart, and hardworking, and respectful of your coworkers and bosses, (regardless of skin, or musical tastes, or video game enjoyment, or movies that you watch) you will have a much better chance of being in a corporation, or playing on team. And, if you are talented and have the heart of a lion, and you understand teamwork, perhaps you can be a patriot.

Whitlock did not need to talk about race, or music, or culture or what ever. He used these terms because he wanted his piece to be sexy, and he knew that he could get away with it without feeling the wrath. And, it is a trap. Many people will use his article to openly label and stereotype more people. Well, act as if you know all you want. In this country, it comes down to the individual.

It is a person's actions.

The content of his character that bleed forth these actions.

Not the color of his skin.

It ain't rocket surgery here.

I agree...Nice insights & strong points. Good job!

I think as a white person, I tend to give an article written by a black man about black culture more credance. You helped me see how I was wrong.

 

[Joker]

Rocket surgery????

 

[Bo0MeR]

this is a crap article. first of all there thousands of players in this league thats immersed in this "hip hop culture" that don't threaten the integrity of this league. mcginest grew up with snoop dogg and own a record label "55 entertainment" is he a threat,no. Many of the players we've won SB's with were immersed in the "culture" were they threats? only on the field against the opposition. the truth is a majority of players are into the hip hop culture but the only ones that get attention are the minimal percentage of them that get get in trouble. how come you dont hear about the great things warwick dunn, tomlinson, ed reed, hines ward, roy willams, rosevelt colvin, etc do. because you get more attention with crap like this that are tools to solidify peoples fears and insecurities about a "culture" that people have no clue about. its like blaming rock music for these school shootings, thats crap,the blame if anything is on American culture, we are a very violent culture. thats taking a look in the mirror. As an African American I took very little from that article as fact.

By far the best post in this entire thread.

 

[LoveDemPats]

Rocket surgery????

Rocket science.

Brain Surgery.

Ya know??

 

[He Ban Me]

Huh????????

I think that a very prominent African American leader stated quite emphatically that he "dreamed of a time when people would be judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin." MLK.

I am not trying to preach. These topics begin to get rather muddled when people forget this basic tenent.

My post talked about a universal desire as far as I am concerned. To be intelligent is a good thing.

Can you name one African American leader who would say that a certain race is less intelligent? Your statement is diametrically oposed to what King said.

My post removes all the talk about music, and hip hop culture, and boils the issue down to a very basic tenent that we all "dream" of. Regardless of color, or musical proclivity, or length of hair, or gender or whatever.

If you are smart, and hardworking, and respectful of your coworkers and bosses, (regardless of skin, or musical tastes, or video game enjoyment, or movies that you watch) you will have a much better chance of being in a corporation, or playing on team. And, if you are talented and have the heart of a lion, and you understand teamwork, perhaps you can be a patriot.

Whitlock did not need to talk about race, or music, or culture or what ever. He used these terms because he wanted his piece to be sexy, and he knew that he could get away with it without feeling the wrath. And, it is a trap. Many people will use his article to openly label and stereotype more people. Well, act as if you know all you want. In this country, it comes down to the individual.

It is a person's actions.

The content of his character that bleed forth these actions.

Not the color of his skin.

It ain't rocket surgery here.

I am not saying anything about intelligence being a bad thing, or that leaders of the black community say a certain race is less intelligent than another.

But when you say "maybe intelligence is a factor", what folks might hear you saying is, "these guys are black, and therefore they are unintelligent, and therefore they are causing all these problems".

Now, I AM NOT SAYING that this is what you meant. I am just stating that by targeting the "lack of intelligence" as the primary factor in the behavior of this Whitlock labeled "Hip Hop" crowd, you might be inviting cries of "stereotyping" these (black) players as unintelligent. When what I think you are saying is:

Lack of intelligence=higher probability of buffoonary.

Making my point another way, would you site intelligence as the main problem if these "trouble makers" were white??

Again, I am not accusing, I am just proposing a potential problem with the arguement.

 

[Joker]

I'd "cite" intelligence, but then I AM intelligent so I don't need to.

YOU?....not so much

end of ARGUMENT

 

[He Ban Me]

I'd "cite" intelligence, but then I AM intelligent so I don't need to.

YOU?....not so much

end of ARGUMENT

Hey Jokef*ck, CITE THIS!!!

Really, there is no arguement, it's a discussion. But thanks for the input