Miami talking to Pees

[RoughingthePasser]

The Dean Pees haters here really need a clue. We play an entire year with a decent defense that had nobody to set the edge and no true mike LB. I mean we had Wilfork trying to set the edge vs Ravens. Dean Pees is not great but he is a very good coach ... he was not the problem. perhaps he had to go because he yelled at Bill for whose fault the season was.

Good point. Dean is a good coach and has decent football knowledge-I think you summed up one of the biggest D problems during the season and that is more personnel than opposed to coaching.....so, thanks and good luck Dean!

 

[upstater1]

Think about what you just wrote. How can you have a good defense without good talent?

Belichick's D in 1996
LDE Mike D. Jones
LDE Ferric Collons
LDT Mark Wheeler
RDT Pio Sagapolutele
RDE Willie McGinest
LLB Chris Slade
LLB Monty Brown
MLB Ted Johnson
RLB Dwayne Sabb
LCB Ty Law
RCB Otis Smith
SS Lawyer Milloy
FS Willie Clay

Belichick's Defensive Line in 2001
LDE Bobby Hamilton
LDT Brandon Mitchell
RDT Anthony Pleasant
RDE Richard Seymour

 

[upstater1]

Yeah, good point we need to catch up talent-wise as well as with coaching.

We are far behind in coaching especially, and would it kill Belichick to eat more fries, cry more tears, and wail and moan about the playoffs?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Belichick's D in 1996
LDE Mike D. Jones
LDE Ferric Collons
LDT Mark Wheeler
RDT Pio Sagapolutele
RDE Willie McGinest
LLB Chris Slade
LLB Monty Brown
MLB Ted Johnson
RLB Dwayne Sabb
LCB Ty Law
RCB Otis Smith
SS Lawyer Milloy
FS Willie Clay

Belichick's Defensive Line in 2001
LDE Bobby Hamilton
LDT Brandon Mitchell
RDT Anthony Pleasant
RDE Richard Seymour

Not sure what your point is? The 96 D was a very good one. Both statistically and in toughness.

Are you saying that they were not very good and not talented?

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Not sure what your point is? The 96 D was a very good one. Both statistically and in toughness.

Are you saying that they were not very good and not talented?

I think our current defense lacks playmakers and toughness. They are technically sound, but there is no one on that field that makes an opposing offense have to scheme around.

Our LBers are the worst collection of average joes in the NFL. They went the entire year with Mayo and Thomas playing our of position. Guyton went the whole year playing when he is nothing more than a bench warmer. And TBC and Green should only be on the field in obvious passing situations yet due to a lack of talent/option,they have to play way more than their talent dictates they should.

And while teams of the past were not created with a ton of all pros, they did have playmakers, toughness, depth and a ton of leaders.

 

[upstater1]

Not sure what your point is? The 96 D was a very good one. Both statistically and in toughness.

Are you saying that they were not very good and not talented?

I was agreeing with your earlier point (I think) that coaches can make a medicore D in terms of talent much better than it is.

I agree with you that they were very good and tough, but in 1996 and in 2001 I can remember league wide polls that showed common agreement that the Patriots were the team most lacking in talent in the NFL. In other words, Belichick has worked with a lack of talent before and made championship caliber Ds out of them. When you at that defense, you see a 2nd year player in Ty Law, you see Willie McGinest, a run stuffer in Ted Johnson, and a rookie in Lawyer Milloy. That's about it. I mean, a D-line of Ferric Collons, Mark Wheeler, Mike D. Jones and Pio Sagapolutele?

I think we should be all agreed that that was not only the worst D-line in football that year in terms of talent, but maybe the worst of the decade.

And yet, they overcame their deficiencies somehow.

 

[upstater1]

I think our current defense lacks playmakers and toughness. They are technically sound, but there is no one on that field that makes an opposing offense have to scheme around.

Our LBers are the worst collection of average joes in the NFL. They went the entire year with Mayo and Thomas playing our of position. Guyton went the whole year playing when he is nothing more than a bench warmer. And TBC and Green should only be on the field in obvious passing situations yet due to a lack of talent/option,they have to play way more than their talent dictates they should.

And while teams of the past were not created with a ton of all pros, they did have playmakers, toughness, depth and a ton of leaders.

You are severely underranking the current players on defense.

 

[SVN]

The Phins hiring Pees would be about as equal of a brilliant decision as it was when they hired Wannstedt as HC

well ..this is parcells. not some dumb exec. I wont be surprisedif he is hired and runs the defense he wants to run with better players and produces results and us fans wondering what he was doing here.

 

[SVN]

I was agreeing with your earlier point (I think) that coaches can make a medicore D in terms of talent much better than it is.

I agree with you that they were very good and tough, but in 1996 and in 2001 I can remember league wide polls that showed common agreement that the Patriots were the team most lacking in talent in the NFL. In other words, Belichick has worked with a lack of talent before and made championship caliber Ds out of them. When you at that defense, you see a 2nd year player in Ty Law, you see Willie McGinest, a run stuffer in Ted Johnson, and a rookie in Lawyer Milloy. That's about it. I mean, a D-line of Ferric Collons, Mark Wheeler, Mike D. Jones and Pio Sagapolutele?

I think we should be all agreed that that was not only the worst D-line in football that year in terms of talent, but maybe the worst of the decade.

And yet, they overcame their deficiencies somehow.

yes they did. but sometimes competition/schedule and rules play a part. lot more 3-4 teams. lot more wide open offenses. BB is awesome but he is no magician to make any lack of talent work. the 2001 team had a lot of perrenial pats players down the road.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I was agreeing with your earlier point (I think) that coaches can make a medicore D in terms of talent much better than it is.

I agree with you that they were very good and tough, but in 1996 and in 2001 I can remember league wide polls that showed common agreement that the Patriots were the team most lacking in talent in the NFL. In other words, Belichick has worked with a lack of talent before and made championship caliber Ds out of them. When you at that defense, you see a 2nd year player in Ty Law, you see Willie McGinest, a run stuffer in Ted Johnson, and a rookie in Lawyer Milloy. That's about it. I mean, a D-line of Ferric Collons, Mark Wheeler, Mike D. Jones and Pio Sagapolutele?

I think we should be all agreed that that was not only the worst D-line in football that year in terms of talent, but maybe the worst of the decade.

And yet, they overcame their deficiencies somehow.

Yea the only decent guy with any credentials on the D-line was Wheeler. Pats gave him big money at the time to sign here. Also Chad Eaton played too a good amount at the end of the season. Ferric Collons was always a guy I thought should have been more than he was. Oh well. Pio knew the system as he played for BB in CLE. Jones went on to have a pretty decent career.

But yea, clearly the strength of that team was LBs (and Mac) and the secondary. The line was pretty average, but as a group they were excellent vs the run at the end of the season.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You are severely underranking the current players on defense.

Agreed. Too harsh. Gotta give Mayo some slack here. The guy had a blown MCL and partially torn meniscus (rumor but i would not doubt it.) Guyton is a 2nd year guy. He may not be a player, but BB thought enough of him to out him out there for 85% of all the snaps. Merriweather just finished his effectively his 2nd full year as a starter. I think hes a player.

Just need some another DT, a couple of pass rushers and a solid corner opposite Bodden and some attitude and toughness....thats all.

 

[Jimke]

Agreed. Too harsh. Gotta give Mayo some slack here. The guy had a blown MCL and partially torn meniscus (rumor but i would not doubt it.) Guyton is a 2nd year guy. He may not be a player, but BB thought enough of him to out him out there for 85% of all the snaps. Merriweather just finished his effectively his 2nd full year as a starter. I think hes a player.

Just need some another DT, a couple of pass rushers and a solid corner opposite Bodden and some attitude and toughness....thats all.

Who could BB start in place of Guyton? Eric Alexander or Junior Seau?

What makes you think the Patriots will offer Bodden enough to keep

him from testing free agency?

 

[patsfan-1982]

Think about what you just wrote. How can you have a good defense without good talent?

that is my whole point i don't care who the new DC is if BB dose not bring in some real talent the D will still be the same if not worst.

 

[IcyPatriot]

RLB Dwayne Sabb

I never thought I'd see Sabb's name mentioned in our forum.

He had a decent Arena football and XFL football career.

 

[Marley]

Pees off the pats n elsewhere benefits the pats symbiotically

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Wow! Coach Pees must be a quick healer for a 60 year old.

 

[Kontradiction]

Pees off the pats n elsewhere benefits the pats symbiotically

The only way the Pats are benefitted by anything is if there is new personnel brought in to play defense. Obviously, the guys we had this year were not cutting it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I never thought I'd see Sabb's name mentioned in our forum.

He had a decent Arena football and XFL football career.

I went to UNH with him. Wasn't on a 1st name basis with him but I thought he was a good guy.

 

[Marley]

The only way the Pats are benefitted by anything is if there is new personnel brought in to play defense. Obviously, the guys we had this year were not cutting it.

wrong. a better d-cord and this is a decent defense.

 

[upstater1]

The only way the Pats are benefitted by anything is if there is new personnel brought in to play defense. Obviously, the guys we had this year were not cutting it.

There are a lot of holes to fill. On the other hand...

Ty Warren and Vince Wilfork (backed up by Mike Wright and Myron Pryor)
Jerod Mayo at MLB (backed up by Tyrone McKenzie and Gary Guyton in a 3rd down Roman-Phifer-like role)
Tully Banta-Cain as 3rd down pass rush specialist.
Darius Butler and Leigh Bodden at CB (backed up by Jon Wilhite and maybe Terrence Wheatley)
Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders and Patrick Chung at safety (backed up by Brandon McGowan).

A bunch of JAGs: Ron Brace, Pierre Woods, Shawn Crable, Rob Ninkovich, Bret Lockett, Kyle Arrington, Matthew Slater.

That's not a total rebuild. They need a DE, two OLB, one ILB. Four players away on defense. They could fill one or two of those slots in FA if they're aggressive, or otherwise try to hit in the draft instead.