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Measuring "Cheap"

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by betterthanthealternative, Mar 18, 2013.

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  1. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

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    Kraft and the Pats get called cheap a lot, on this board and by the media. It seems to be a reaction to signings that aren't made, and to perceived star players not acquired.

    Isn't the only measure of "cheapness" the % of the cap that a team spends to? The other metrics are about HOW the money is spent - the distribution of the money across the players and positions. "Cheap" is about HOW MUCH money is spent - the overall player budget.

    There also seems to be a little disagreement about how much of tomorrow's cap to spend on today's players, through signing bonuses that tend to get more highly rated players today but leave more dead cap room later. But that issue doesn't seem to drive the issue in this debate.

    I'd love to hear other views on this. It seems very simple to me but that is always a warning sign.
  2. Brady2Moss

    Brady2Moss Rookie

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    Cheapness by my measure is spending small chunks of cash on old guys instead of giving a single guy market value even though that player could be a game changer. I get that they don't like paying outside of the system. Rather spend 12 million on say Julius Peppers than 2 million on Haynesworth 6 million on ocho stinko and 4 million on Fanene in a span of a calendar year.
  3. Frezo

    Frezo Rookie

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    Rumor has it the whole family buys their ties at Walmart. shhhhhhhh
  4. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That has nothing to do with cheap. It has to do with dividing the money.

    If I spend $10 a day on food all month long that is $300 a month.
    If you have one $271 dinner then spend $1 the other 29 days neither of us is any cheaper than the other.

    You want a team that is filled with star players and scrubs.
    The Patriots would rather have talent spread throughout the roster.

    Your ignorance in calling the money spent on a player that didn't work out cheap, is ridiculous.
  5. Brady2Moss

    Brady2Moss Rookie

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    Hyperbole 101 back in effect from the homer brigade, I don't want it filled with studs I would rather some of the vet signings be pushed into 1 player that actually makes a difference. Didn't say sign Peppers, Williams, Wallace, and every other top free agent. How about instead of signing 6 people for bargain deals, sign 1 impact guy and 2-3 bargains.

    It is cheapness they do not like to pay for top end talent unless they are groomed in their system and have put in years of vastly overplaying their contracts. Even then they push them out the door sometimes. Example #1 Wes Welker.

    I guess them spending to the cap means they aren't cheap. Don't they not like to give out big signing bonuses like other teams? Because they don't wanna spend the cash. It's a business buddy they're squeezing all the success they can out of Tom Brady, once he retires you'll see the bandwagon break apart.
  6. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Its called an analogy.

    They paid more for Amendola than Welker got. How is that cheap?
    How is spending as much money as they can, in a way you disapprove of cheap? Cheap is not spending it.
    Please show me the franchsie that has produced good results by signing top dollar free agents, so you can support your argument that you have a better way to divide the money than BB does.

    They pay signing bonusses all the time. But that doesnt matter, because whatever you spend hits the cap. There is not a way to spend the cap that costs less in real money over the long term. In the short term it could cost a lot more or a lot less, but in the long run its the same thing.
    Do you even understand how the cap works?
  7. Bruins29

    Bruins29 Rookie

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    brady2moss you calling people homers who believe that this organization is obviously better off doing what they have been doing to keep the team near the top every year is comical.

    Then you cherry pick your points to favor your side. "Ya the pats diddnt spend money on peppers but got Ocho and Hainsworth. You know you are brilliant and just like all the other guys here who know the drafts and decisions are busts AFTER ITS ALL PLAYED OUT.

    Teams gamble...they try things. They dont work out...

    You dont even know what a homer is yet you just keep using the word over and over.

    No matter how many times we explain it to you and your pals it will never sink in.

    But the thing I dont get is that if the Pats FO is so terrible and cheap as you and your buds seem to constantly insinuate....then why is the team still an Elite unit year after year.

    And dont give me this TB12 crap. This is a team.

    And also If the FO and team can get us so close to a SB and the STAR Players arent clutch in the big moment isnt it time we start looking for clutch players.

    I mean its only happened twice now.
  8. Ice_Ice_Brady

    Ice_Ice_Brady Rookie

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    You have to realize that most people are extremely stupid. That's the only conclusion I can draw after following the NFL for a long time in the salary cap era. The idea that Daniel Snyder is "in it to win it" while Robert Kraft is "cheap" is one of the most foolish notions that I've ever heard. Even worse is that the dumb talking heads and former players say the same the thing, echoing the same misguided understanding of the cap system.

    The teams that are most often called "cheap" are the Patriots, Steelers, and Manning-era Colts, merely because they weren't diving into free agency, shelling all their money out to a few players in the desperate hope of improving their team. Last year, the Buffalo Bills were hailed as "aggressive" because they spent a zillion dollars on a couple of free agents that were nowhere near that monetary translation on the field. Of course, now they are "cheap" again because they no longer have the luxury of those contracts, since the cap is eaten up in subsequent years.

    Even more mind-numbing stupid is that the Patriots signed Amendola to MORE money! More money to another player, but they were too cheap to sign Welker? Please, explain.

    I've said it 100 times on here, but I'll say it again: in the NFL, there is no such thing as value unless you consider the cost. This isn't like MLB where a player needs to produce at a certain level to be an asset. In the NFL, Aaron Rodgers can be a liability, as can Calvin Johnson, Darrelle Revis, or Tom Brady. Players with marginal skills, such as Danny Woodhead, can be more valuable to a team based on their cost:production. Unfortunately, most people will never grasp that concept.
  9. mgcolby

    mgcolby Woohoo, I'm a VIP!!! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    And this is where the whiners argument has an epic fail. Risking big money in FA on a few guys is a proven failure see Redskins, Jets, Eagles of the past couple of years. Having a solid roster from top to bottom is proven to work. See Colts, Steelers, Eagles for the first decade of the 2000's...
  10. Bruins29

    Bruins29 Rookie

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    How did they all end up on this forum?
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Don't big signing bonuses have cap ramifications?

    As andyjohnson already pointed out, you're addressing how they distribute their spending, not how much they spend -- and they're only "cheap" if they don't spend much, which isn't the case.
  12. Bruins29

    Bruins29 Rookie

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    The problem is we have two things working against is

    The 12-18 year olds on here dont care about good solid players top to bottom. They want shiny new toys and bling. They want guys with huge stats with big paychecks cause its sexy and sounds like the team is diving in.

    And when the team does the smart thing be making sure the lineups have contingency after contingency and a good team vibe and atmosphere the TEAM wins.

    These posters wouldnt know anything about a team because they probably never played on a team. Isnt it obvious by now that a bunch of star players on a team dosent mean success.

    Plus the problem is these posters dont know what it is like to have a real football franchise. Imagine what they would do with the Pats pre 2001. Pre 1994 for that matter.

    They have only known great success but think altering from the formula that brought the success will someone bring more success.

    How can the team be any better (comparatively to the rest of the league)

    If Samuel and WW caught those passes we would have 5 rings. Why dosent anyone blame them?
  13. Patsbacker

    Patsbacker Rookie

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    If people want to cherry pick the failures of this organization then let's do the same with other organizations...let's add all star talent like the Eagles and Bills did...how did that work out for them?

    Let's cherry pick Pats moves as well; the reality is that the Patriots won more super bowls with guys like David Patten, David Givens, Troy Brown, than they did with Randy Moss. Roman Phifer and Brian Cox old guys past their prime brought more titles than the last free agent stud Adalius Thomas.

    Some people just don't get it. Ahhh makes me long for the days of JR Redmond. :)
  14. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    "Cheap" is what people call it when the Pats don't spend money on the exact players that they want them to.
  15. Bruins29

    Bruins29 Rookie

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    Now we are getting to the crux of it. Maybe the pats should listen to some of these guys. They certainly think that they know what they are talking about.

    Typical MA I know everything pompousness. No wonder nobody likes people from MA.
  16. Crazy Patriot Guy

    Crazy Patriot Guy Rookie

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    The Patriots way of spending can obviously be frustrating as a fan when there's a free agent you like and know they probably won't get them.

    That being said, I very much prefer the Patriot way over a team like Dallas, who spends a truck load of cash on Brandon Carr, then has to restructure his contract barely a full calender year into it so they can get a couple $100,000 above the salary cap. Is that smarter? Does signing players one year and apparently not paying any attention to what things will look like the following year a smart thing?

    Again, of course there's been free agents I would have liked to see us get, I'm human. But while the majority of the league was cutting players left and right a couple weeks ago, the team that was in the AFC Championship last season was sitting on $18 million BEFORE Brady restructured.

    And for those that think we for sure would have another Super Bowl title or two had we dished out the money for a top free agent recently, JR Redmond, David Tyree, Tracy Porter, Mario Manningham and Jacoby Jones say hello.
  17. PatsFaninAZ

    PatsFaninAZ Rookie

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    Not sure how this thread spiraled so quickly, but the answer to the original post is, obviously, yes. The word "cheap" is silly. The team is going to spend $128 million on players. To the extent it spends a little less, it will use the left over to carryover to next year's cap to do the same.

    "Cheap" is stuff that agents say. They only have to deal with the needs on their client. A FO has a responsibility to build a team. The word "cheap" would suggest that when a team doesn't pay $15 million to player X, it's doing so to save its money. Of course it's not. It's making a decision how all resources should be spent -- that $15 million is going to get spent, just not on player X. It has nothing against player X. I'm sure Bill Belichick doesn't begrudge a single player a penny. I'm sure he wishes his guys could all make zillions. It doesn't work that way.

    "Cheap" is just a stupid word used to say that one does not like the way a team allocates its $123 million (or its adjusted cap). I think it's all a balance. You can only play the ball as it lies. If your team is in great shape top to bottom and you have $10 million, then sure give it to one or two players. If you have multiple needs, you have to be more judicious.

    Put it this way -- if someone said to Belichick and Kraft, you can spend $150 million on players, but the rest of the league can only spend $123 million, do you think they would do it? Of course they would. In a second. The $27 million is not why they don't. It's the salary cap.
  18. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sometimes when I read these responses some of the folks must think that "Steve from Fall River" is a credible source...

    Cheap is not a word I associate with Mr. Kraft or his family, there are better ways to describe him...

    At one point this stuff would come up sporadically, however now as the NFL has turned into a 12 month sport it comes up more often than necessary.
  19. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Cheap is a pretty commonly understood, borderline universal term. If you want to try to redefine it according to your own measure, then knock yourself out, but you should probably let people know that you're doing that when you attempt to.
  20. Bruins29

    Bruins29 Rookie

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    Guys, dont you think it is a little scary that we need to explain the salary cap to posters here? The cap is almost 20 years old.

    What were these so called "football fans" doing this whole time.

    Its not like the cap just started last year. Why does it need to be explained.

    Oh yeah - Fair Weather Fans.
  21. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    See, now that's an interesting point. In the 'uncapped' year, only the Redskins and Cowboys spent crazy and now are suffering under the penalties imposed by the league. So why didn't Kraft spend crazy? He could probably afford to.

    One thing that Kraft speaks about is the value of the league as a whole. A few teams spending crazy every year (assuming they were smart and not Dan Snyder) could turn the league into moneyball, where smaller market teams can't win and the game itself becomes less interesting.

    So Kraft spends to the cap and and also negotiated with the NFLPA such that others have to spend to the cap (i.e. the spending floor is fairly close to the ceiling).

    It's not just about one guy spending. It's about building a strong, exciting and competitive league.
  22. Grayrider16

    Grayrider16 Rookie

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    Reading Kraft's transcript today makes me respect the man even more. Great mind and great owner.
  23. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well the cheap team in the last 20 years:

    Overall Regular Season Record: 200-120
    Super Bowl Record: 3-3
    Playoff Appearances: 13
    Playoff Record: 19-10
    Seasons At Or Above .500: 16


    I'll take cheap please.

    NFL 2011 - Best NFL Records: Past 10 Years | NFL 2011 Football

    Over the past 10 years, five NFL teams have posted a winning percentage
    of .600 or better -- led by the NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS (121-39, .756).
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  24. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Last 10 years ...

    New England .... 121-39-0 >>> .756843

    Indianapolis .... 115-45-0 >>>>.719921

    Pittsburgh ...... 106-53-1 >>>>>.666732

    Philadelphia ...... 102-57-1 >>>>.641810

    Green Bay .......... 96-64-0 >>>>.600711
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  25. Bruins29

    Bruins29 Rookie

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    Not good enough!

    The people here who only started following the pats in 2001 expect a SB every year. Anything else is just the FO screwing up and drafting bad and being cheap.

    FWFs
  26. Brady2Moss

    Brady2Moss Rookie

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    Its not an analogy it is hyperbole to make my post seem idiotic. Also it is cheap when you let 1 million dollars come between you and a guy that has produced. I don't even feel like we should have kept Welker because the slot receiver is redundant with 2 all world tight ends. But since they decided to get a brittle Welker clone might as well have paid the real thing.

    Also show me a franchise that has the greatest QB of all time before you go making comparisons to what OTHER franchises do. For our franchise we are a few players away due to how good the QB is. Stop with the idiotic thumping about the Redskins and other franchises that DONT have the best QB in the game.

    I understand how the cap works and I have read from reporters over the years how lack of larger signing bonuses cause free agents to not want to sign with us on top of the fact that we low ball them all anyway (Jennings, Peppers, etc?)
  27. Bruins29

    Bruins29 Rookie

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    [​IMG]
  28. Sciz

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    Right. They lowball them because they don't seriously want them, because the Pats know they are a terrible idea.
  29. Brady2Moss

    Brady2Moss Rookie

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    Right me calling people like you homers is worse than you just stating everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion is stupid. Get off your high horse.

    Actually many posters here for years have stated that we need a CB, WR, and pass rush and that signing old cooks won't get it done, before the fact. And guess what? Every year it doesn't get it done because we come to the offseason saying we need corners, receivers, and a pass rush. Funny how that works?

    I don't know what a homer is? Aren't you the guy who can't even spell hypocrite? You're actually one the biggest going to every thread calling all people that see the obvious flaws with this team morons while spouting how BB is the best. He's the best coach, his GM side has let him down the last 5 years.

    And don't give you that TB crap? Matt Cassel with one of the easiest schedules we have ever had as a team with essentially the same team that went 18-1 accounted for 7 less wins. TB was worth 7 wins EVEN THEN. The defense has fallen off even worse since you put Matt Cassel on last year's team they win 3-4 games MAX. TB is the team.

    They spend to the cap they aren't cheap in terms of dollars. They are cheap in terms of getting top end talent when they desperately need it and opportunities to do so were there this off season for reasonable years and $$.

    Also all those contingencies this team tried to make, how'd the tight end or wide receiver contingencies work out? The ones they were sooo smart about signing by "spreading the wealth" which I call being cheap.

    Oh ya here's how it worked out

    Shianco- cut
    Hooman- garbage player
    Winslow- cut
    Fells- lucky to play 5 snaps
    Gaffney - cut
    Stallworth - cut, resigned, IR after 1 game!

    Guess what bit you in the ass in the AFC championship game? No Gronk, no receivers besides Welker.

    This is what happens when you become too obsessed with spreading the wealth you pay for a bunch of marginal talents that get cut because they suck or hurt because they're old.
  30. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Yes ... those other 31 teams competing for players and coaches do not exist in the minds of some here. They also do not factor into the NFL salary market. The ignorance of those who call the team cheap astounds me. No other local team has had this success except the Red Auerbach Celtics and they operated as they wished back then without a cap.
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