Mayo Mayo Mayo

[BlueThunder]

:woot: Runs for the pretzels and beer

 

[Joker]

Any respected football analyst and they will tell you Bart Scott's high level of play has had an enormous impact on the Jets' defense the last two years.

let's see....crunch time in the second half of the Indy playoff game two years ago...you know...when this so called "enormous impacter!!!!!!" should be on display?...uh...still nothing to report...perhaps he was away taking a screen test for the lead in "The Invisible Man"...

OK...flash forward...versus Pitt in the AFC championship game...Bart Scott...TWO solo tackles..4 total....uh,Mendenhall...ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SEVEN YARDS RUSHING....FOUR POINT FIVE AVG PER CARRY...

"OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!"

 

[BlueThunder]

I think JO just hit one outta da pahk

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't really see it as a matter of right or wrong. Grading football players can be a very subjective process, especially when it's done by people who aren't experts (everyone on this forum.) If you feel Mayo is better than Harris (not unreasonable IMO) the only thing I'm looking for is what your basing that off of, with a little more nuance than just "it's obvious."

Actually, people were basing it off of the tackle statistics, but that wasn't good enough for you. It's your right to take that approach, but you shouldn't be dismissing it later in this context, in the way you seem to be.

Do you think Harris struggles fighting off blocks? Do you think he has less range? Like I said earlier, from what I can tell they're pretty similar players. I don't see Harris get beat in coverage quite as much (which could contribute to lower tackle numbers) and I think he's got an edge as far as his contributions as a blitzer and pass rusher.

Mayo has played one fewer season than Harris, and played one of those years clearly hobbled by an injury. Still, he's only 10 tackles behind Harris. You dismiss those numbers, though, even as you try to justify Harris' lower numbers with an argument about Harris not getting beat in coverage. Harris has 10 total passes defensed (and 2 INTs) in his 4 years, while Mayo has 9 in his 3 years. Statistically, there's not much advantage, if any, for Harris in the passing game. Without having the data on times thrown against/blown coverages/etc..., the only thing we've got here is, again, your opinion.

Using Pro-football-reference.com, and noting that all 3 players played in all 16 games:

Mayo (v. Harris) - 45 More tackles, 31 more assists, 2 more passes defensed, 1 more forced fumble, 1 fewer sack

Mayo (v. Scott) - 85 more tackles, 39 more assists, 3 more passes defensed, same amount of forced fumbles, 1 more sack

Personally, I think Mayo is better all around. I don't think it was even close last year, and the numbers certainly seem to reflect that, particularly with regards to tackling.

I'm not an expert, but I'm also not an idiot. If there's a specific part of my analysis you disagree with, or more context you feel you can add to the discussion, have at it. I might have my mind changed with good discussion, I might not, but it doesn't matter. I'm not posting in this thread trying to "prove" anything. I'm just interested in honest discussion on the matter.

You're making unverifiable claims in support of Harris, but you dismiss the verifiable numbers. Now, I don't always have a problem with that, because some numbers can be misleading, but turning that around on the other guy when you're doing it is not going to get discussion moving (sometimes it's the way to go, but it's not a discussion lubricant).

In my mind, telling someone they don't know enough about football and saying "Mayo is better in every single way imaginable" doesn't qualify as honest discussion. At that point, I'm more inclined to believe that the only thing Mayo does to appease that poster is wear the correct jersey.

Well, that certainly doesn't apply to me.

 

[BlueThunder]

Point to DI :rocker:

 

[Calciumee]

Any respected football analyst and they will tell you Bart Scott's high level of play has had an enormous impact on the Jets' defense the last two years.

let's see....crunch time in the second half of the Indy playoff game two years ago...you know...when this so called "enormous impacter!!!!!!" should be on display?...uh...still nothing to report...perhaps he was away taking a screen test for the lead in "The Invisible Man"...

OK...flash forward...versus Pitt in the AFC championship game...Bart Scott...TWO solo tackles..4 total....uh,Mendenhall...ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SEVEN YARDS RUSHING....FOUR POINT FIVE AVG PER CARRY...

"OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!"

Sign the beast

 

[ausbacker]

First, when you say Mayo has "considerably outperformed" them, it doesn't mean anything other than he has more tackles. If you looked at sacks, FFs, INTs, and pass deflections, you'll see he hasn't considerably outperformed either of them. So if the whole basis of your argument is that Mayo is better because of the tackle numbers, then I think you don't follow football closely enough. Tackles are just one metric used in measuring a player's impact, and not a very good one.

Second, you accuse me of dismissing Mayo's production when I have done no such thing. I'm simply not dismissing quality players simply because they wear the wrong jersey.

Third, it's disappointing how poorly you understood my argument. I'm not saying the Jets defense is good, so that makes Scott and Harris good. I'm saying Scott and Harris playing at such a high level is what makes it possible for that defense to be so good.

I never said you can't be a good football player on a bad unit, so your Patrick Willis comparison is useless. But I do think if an offensive or defensive unit has consistent success, it's probably fair to say that said unit has some very good football players. Instead of Jacob Tamme, I'm saying Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark are awesome, and it's because of the huge role they play in making that offense go.

Lastly, your assertion that Jim Leonhard has a larger impact than either LB is truly laughable. Yes, Leonhard makes the calls in the secondary and helps get guys lined up, but that's a long way away from being the "cog that makes the Jets defense go." The truth is, in a perfect world, he would be a rotational safety playing part time.

He can be very effective when he can be used for run support near the LOS, blitzing off the edge, and maybe covering a RB in the flat. However, if you need him to play a more traditional safety role, you'll see him get lost in space and get torched in man to man. He's too small and slow, and Jets fans saw last year how at times, he can be a real liability out there.

So statistics are not good enough neither is the eyeball test? Unfortunately you've confused good players with the best in the league and don't like it.

I suggest you remove yourself from the topic saving yourself further embarrassment.

 

[Professor Frink]

Actually, people were basing it off of the tackle statistics, but that wasn't good enough for you. It's your right to take that approach, but you shouldn't be dismissing it later in this context, in the way you seem to be.



Mayo has played one fewer season than Harris, and played one of those years clearly hobbled by an injury. Still, he's only 10 tackles behind Harris. You dismiss those numbers, though, even as you try to justify Harris' lower numbers with an argument about Harris not getting beat in coverage. Harris has 10 total passes defensed (and 2 INTs) in his 4 years, while Mayo has 9 in his 3 years. Statistically, there's not much advantage, if any, for Harris in the passing game. Without having the data on times thrown against/blown coverages/etc..., the only thing we've got here is, again, your opinion.

Using Pro-football-reference.com, and noting that all 3 players played in all 16 games:

Mayo (v. Harris) - 45 More tackles, 31 more assists, 2 more passes defensed, 1 more forced fumble, 1 fewer sack

Mayo (v. Scott) - 85 more tackles, 39 more assists, 3 more passes defensed, same amount of forced fumbles, 1 more sack

Personally, I think Mayo is better all around. I don't think it was even close last year, and the numbers certainly seem to reflect that, particularly with regards to tackling.



You're making unverifiable claims in support of Harris, but you dismiss the verifiable numbers. Now, I don't always have a problem with that, because some numbers can be misleading, but turning that around on the other guy when you're doing it is not going to get discussion moving (sometimes it's the way to go, but it's not a discussion lubricant).



Well, that certainly doesn't apply to me.

OK, let's look at it this way. Statistically there is no significant edge in any category other than tackles.

Dhani Jones had just as many tackles as Brian Urlacher.

Paul Posluszny had more tackles than Patrick Willis.

There are a lot of factors that go into how many tackles a player gets, many of which the player himself has nothing to do with. Perhaps David Harris would have had more tackles if he played on a defense that was terrible on 3rd down. Maybe he would have more impressive numbers if he wasn't so frequently asked to rush the passer as part of a four man rush.

What happens if there's a stretch play called and the OLB doesn't set the edge? The RB turns the corner and if your ILB is good enough (and Mayo certainly is) he probably runs him down after a five or six yard gain. If the OLB does his job and someone else brings down the ball carrier at the LOS, did the ILB do any worst?

Just because the numbers can be verified doesn't mean they provide enough useful information to make an accurate comparison between the two players.

David Harris is the 2nd best football player on a unit that has been among the best in the league the past two years. I don't think it's possible to be the 2nd best football player on an elite unit without being a damn good player. Jerod Mayo has not yet done enough to separate himself from the other "damn good players" at his position.

Oh, and rest assured, that jersey comment was in no way directed towards you

 

[Professor Frink]

Any respected football analyst and they will tell you Bart Scott's high level of play has had an enormous impact on the Jets' defense the last two years.

let's see....crunch time in the second half of the Indy playoff game two years ago...you know...when this so called "enormous impacter!!!!!!" should be on display?...uh...still nothing to report...perhaps he was away taking a screen test for the lead in "The Invisible Man"...

OK...flash forward...versus Pitt in the AFC championship game...Bart Scott...TWO solo tackles..4 total....uh,Mendenhall...ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY SEVEN YARDS RUSHING....FOUR POINT FIVE AVG PER CARRY...

"OUTSTANDING!!!!!!!!"

Umm, Bart Scott got hurt in the 2nd half in Indy. I'm not really sure what that proves. But hey, let's take a look at a two game sample and judge a player with 9 years of service exclusively off of that. That makes a lot of sense

 

[Professor Frink]

So statistics are not good enough neither is the eyeball test? Unfortunately you've confused good players with the best in the league and don't like it.

I suggest you remove yourself from the topic saving yourself further embarrassment.

It's true. If your eyeball test tells you Jim Leonhard is more important than David Harris, then I'm not going to have much respect for the results.

 

[sbpatfan]

Anyone else find it somewhat suspicious that two posters with low post counts are coming in here to defend Jet players?

 

[ausbacker]

Anyone else find it somewhat suspicious that two posters with low post counts are coming in here to defend Jet players?

Not particularly. I'm not silly enough to know there's portions of the Patriots fan base (suspicion aside) who are missing a couple upstairs. They're usually ones who makes claims like David Harris and Bart Scott are as good or better than Jerod Mayo whilst discounting all the comparative measures and general comment towards level of play because it doesn't suit their subjective opinion.

 

[Joker]

not at all...it has ALWAYS been the Jet fan mentality...I remember on this very board,going back years and years to the Windows 95 days...a guy signs on as Big Patfan or whatever and the talk is about Patriot WR's and he writes this longwinded treatise that winds up we should draft an Al Toon, because Al Toon is a REAL All pro WR and far beyond any WR the Pats currently had. I still remember the outrage by board members that they were deceived by this guy. "how can ANY fan play a phony game like this?????" was the most common response...well, as we all have come to know and see this past decade, they come here in droves.In some ways it's a subconscious sign of respect on their part that they would go to such lengths to be deceptive.

 

[Deus Irae]

OK, let's look at it this way. Statistically there is no significant edge in any category other than tackles.

Dhani Jones had just as many tackles as Brian Urlacher.

Paul Posluszny had more tackles than Patrick Willis.

There are a lot of factors that go into how many tackles a player gets, many of which the player himself has nothing to do with. Perhaps David Harris would have had more tackles if he played on a defense that was terrible on 3rd down. Maybe he would have more impressive numbers if he wasn't so frequently asked to rush the passer as part of a four man rush.

What happens if there's a stretch play called and the OLB doesn't set the edge? The RB turns the corner and if your ILB is good enough (and Mayo certainly is) he probably runs him down after a five or six yard gain. If the OLB does his job and someone else brings down the ball carrier at the LOS, did the ILB do any worst?

Just because the numbers can be verified doesn't mean they provide enough useful information to make an accurate comparison between the two players.

David Harris is the 2nd best football player on a unit that has been among the best in the league the past two years. I don't think it's possible to be the 2nd best football player on an elite unit without being a damn good player. Jerod Mayo has not yet done enough to separate himself from the other "damn good players" at his position.

Oh, and rest assured, that jersey comment was in no way directed towards you

What you are essentially arguing is that "because I said so" on your part is all there is. That's fine, but you can't facilitate discussion based upon that. It's an answer, not an invitation.

In this case, it's also wrong, as Mayo was clearly better than both Jets players this past year. It's not just me saying so, either.


As I noted earlier, ESPN 'experts' ranked Mayo as the #3 ILB and #6 overall LB in the NFL last year. Neither Jet got a single vote for top 10 status.

The NYT (Andy Benoit) has Mayo at #3, Scott at #7, and Harris falling off of his list.

Dhani Jones has Mayo at #6 on his list, with neither Jet making his top 10.

Mayo was DROY 3 seasons ago, had an injury season 2 seasons ago, and was the league's tackle leader last year.

Mayo was named All-Pro this season. Neither Jet made the list.


So, given the statistical evidence against your position, along with the league accolades and the views of others, I'm confident in my position, and I don't see any way for your use of "my eye test" to convince me that I'm wrong on this.

Again, you can keep saying "I disagree, because my eyes...", and I can't prove you wrong, because football doesn't break down that way. However, I can tell you that you are in what clearly seems to be the minority on this issue.

 

[Professor Frink]

What you are essentially arguing is that "because I said so" on your part is all there is. That's fine, but you can't facilitate discussion based upon that. It's an answer, not an invitation.

I don't think this is an accurate assessment of my argument. I started by asking the question why do people think Mayo is so much better than Harris? I suggested tackle numbers don't provide enough evidence, which IMO is a perfectly reasonable statement.

If Mayo had clearly outperformed them in the other four statistical categories this argument would have ended very quickly.

I haven't been demanding that Harris is as good "because I said so," or that "my eye test" is the only way you can compare the two players. I've simply been saying there needs to be something more than just tackle numbers to back up some of the bold statements made in this thread. More evidence is needed.

For the record, I would have accepted anecdotal evidence, meaning observations you've made while watching them play. I would have respected anyone who posted their opinion on David Harris' limitations as a player, and how those limitations keep him from having the kind of impact on a defense that Jerod Mayo can have. I might not have agreed with the conclusions you reached, but it at least would have made for good discussion. Instead I was accused of being a Jets fan

But then you brought forth some even better evidence. You show me people who have more credentials than you or me saying that Mayo is the superior player. What am I suppose to say? ESPN and NYT are all wrong because Professor Frink says so? Nah, I concede that the national consensus is worth listening to over me.

But I'll still hold onto my opinion that Harris is an excellent (and underrated) player and Bart Scott makes a far larger impact on a game than his stat sheet would suggest.

But then again, opinions are like *******s...

 

[ausbacker]

I think people are giving BaltimorePatsFan way too much crap for his statement. Harris and Scott are both excellent LBs and personally I think David Harris is every bit the player Mayo is. What is it exactly that Mayo does so much better than him? Is he better in coverage? As a blitzer? Can he peel off blocks better? I don't see any of that, and don't just throw tackle numbers at me, there is a hell of a lot more that goes into evaluating an ILB than just tackles.

As far as Scott goes, I think it's pretty clear he doesn't have the athleticism and raw talent that Mayo and Harris have. Because of that, he plays a different type of role than the other two, he does more of the dirty work. As far as effectiveness in his role goes, he is fantastic. Those low tackle numbers do not represent the kind of high impact player he is to a run defense. He's also an excellent blitzer and has the speed to run down players who attack the edge.

Any respected football analyst and they will tell you Bart Scott's high level of play has had an enormous impact on the Jets' defense the last two years.

I still believe Mayo is the better player, but it's certainly not as one-sided as people in this thread want to believe.

I don't think this is an accurate assessment of my argument. I started by asking the question why do people think Mayo is so much better than Harris? I suggested tackle numbers don't provide enough evidence, which IMO is a perfectly reasonable statement.

If Mayo had clearly outperformed them in the other four statistical categories this argument would have ended very quickly.

I haven't been demanding that Harris is as good "because I said so," or that "my eye test" is the only way you can compare the two players. I've simply been saying there needs to be something more than just tackle numbers to back up some of the bold statements made in this thread. More evidence is needed.

For the record, I would have accepted anecdotal evidence, meaning observations you've made while watching them play. I would have respected anyone who posted their opinion on David Harris' limitations as a player, and how those limitations keep him from having the kind of impact on a defense that Jerod Mayo can have. I might not have agreed with the conclusions you reached, but it at least would have made for good discussion. Instead I was accused of being a Jets fan

But then you brought forth some even better evidence. You show me people who have more credentials than you or me saying that Mayo is the superior player. What am I suppose to say? ESPN and NYT are all wrong because Professor Frink says so? Nah, I concede that the national consensus is worth listening to over me.

But I'll still hold onto my opinion that Harris is an excellent (and underrated) player and Bart Scott makes a far larger impact on a game than his stat sheet would suggest.

But then again, opinions are like *******s...

That's all good and well but unfortunately for you, you actually forgot what you were arguing for and why people are taking you to task, comprehensively flogging you and sitting around congratulating one another for a thorough demolition job using the eye-ball and statistics applications (both of which you've dismissed as they counteract your opinion).

It's the bolded comment. Had you not made that qualification you would have been OK. Unfortunately you did and the considerable gulf between Mayo, Harris & Scott was demonstrated to you. You simply didn't like it.

 

[Off The Grid]

This has been HILARIOUS!! :rocker:

 

[Calciumee]

I was accused of being a Jets fan

Wait around for Jets fan posting as Pats fans, then you will see why you were accused!

This is the internet after all!

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

I don't think this is an accurate assessment of my argument. I started by asking the question why do people think Mayo is so much better than Harris? I suggested tackle numbers don't provide enough evidence, which IMO is a perfectly reasonable statement.

If Mayo had clearly outperformed them in the other four statistical categories this argument would have ended very quickly.

I haven't been demanding that Harris is as good "because I said so," or that "my eye test" is the only way you can compare the two players. I've simply been saying there needs to be something more than just tackle numbers to back up some of the bold statements made in this thread. More evidence is needed.

For the record, I would have accepted anecdotal evidence, meaning observations you've made while watching them play. I would have respected anyone who posted their opinion on David Harris' limitations as a player, and how those limitations keep him from having the kind of impact on a defense that Jerod Mayo can have. I might not have agreed with the conclusions you reached, but it at least would have made for good discussion. Instead I was accused of being a Jets fan

But then you brought forth some even better evidence. You show me people who have more credentials than you or me saying that Mayo is the superior player. What am I suppose to say? ESPN and NYT are all wrong because Professor Frink says so? Nah, I concede that the national consensus is worth listening to over me.

But I'll still hold onto my opinion that Harris is an excellent (and underrated) player and Bart Scott makes a far larger impact on a game than his stat sheet would suggest.

But then again, opinions are like *******s...

No just is just Jets Fans opinions

Looking into this further I think that Brandon Spikes is just as good as both Harris and Scott. If he had of played in all 16 games his stats would have been the comparable with Harris and better then Scott's. Now he is only a two down LB for us and missed 4 games so just imagine how good he will be next year. I would put Harris and Scott more in the Class of Guyton but that is just me

 

[Professor Frink]

That's all good and well but unfortunately for you, you actually forgot what you were arguing for and why people are taking you to task, comprehensively flogging you and sitting around congratulating one another for a thorough demolition job using the eye-ball and statistics applications (both of which you've dismissed as they counteract your opinion).

It's the bolded comment. Had you not made that qualification you would have been OK. Unfortunately you did and the considerable gulf between Mayo, Harris & Scott was demonstrated to you. You simply didn't like it.

I stated my opinion that Harris is as good as Mayo. Then I simply asked why people felt so strongly the other way. Like I said in my last post, if you had written about Harris' limitations or brought any kind of nuance to the argument I would have respected it. Instead you say "Mayo is better at everything." Sorry, but to me that comes across as just some simpleton BS.

You keep trumpeting "statistical evidence" but that same evidence would lead me to believe Paul Posluszny is a better player than Patrick Willis. Basically, it's not evidence at all. There are no significant differences in the other categories, why is this not considered evidence that perhaps the gap between the two isn't as wide? When did tackles become such an important metric for measuring and comparing players?

So you've pretty much brought nothing to this discussion and just acted like an arrogant douchenozzle the whole time. Just so you know, you are allowed to disagree with people without acting like a smug know-it-all. You should try it some time.