Let's Lock Talib Up Now Longterm before FA

[patsox23]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised at the response to what I've seen so far -- sort of okay play by Talib. He's been fine. It's coincided with an uptick in the D -- and I guess we can give him SOME credit for that, ripple effects and all -- but I don't see how his performance warrants such unanimity when it comes to giving the guy a long-term deal. Hope you guys are right and he does merit such consideration -- and, in that case, that the Pats sign him up. But I'm just not sure what everyone here is seeing that I haven't.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

a lot of people are saying talib is making the secondary better which may be the case...but i still think without him they would be getting better on their own no?

 

[ATippett56]

Ironically, I sort of disagree about Haynesworth. The Pats did get something for that trade ... they got the privilege of cutting him. And I'm half serious - that ended up being one of the biggest moves of the 2011 season IMHO. It sent a huge message to a very young team about effort and about the team being >>> the individual. And everyone stepped it up noticeably after that, and the team didn't lose again until the Super Bowl. If it took cutting Haynesworth to do that, it was worth it.

But I digress ...

Completely disagree with this assessment altogether. Albert Haynesworth wasn't even worth a seventh round draft pick.

As for a message sent, cutting the "establishment" during training camp should have put players on notice:

Ty Warren
James Sanders
Brandon Meriweather

 

[ATippett56]

2. Jason has us estimated at being $16MM under the cap right now. I'm not sure how accurate that is. Lets say we have an additional $5MM more in carry over. That's just $21MM under the cap. That's not much even if all we had to do was sign our own FA's. Welker wants 9-10, Volmer's gonna want at least $8, Edelman 3-4....and there's your cap space....gone before you even get to Talib and whatever CB's get.

Julian Edelman will most likely receive a contract in the neighborhood of Matt Slater - 3 years/$5.4 million

Matthew Slater

 

[MassPats38]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised at the response to what I've seen so far -- sort of okay play by Talib. He's been fine. It's coincided with an uptick in the D -- and I guess we can give him SOME credit for that, ripple effects and all -- but I don't see how his performance warrants such unanimity when it comes to giving the guy a long-term deal. Hope you guys are right and he does merit such consideration -- and, in that case, that the Pats sign him up. But I'm just not sure what everyone here is seeing that I haven't.

I agree that he has been a benefit, but this team with young defensive players followed a similar trend last year. Let's wait a week or two after the warm afterglow of the Texans win before concluding Talib has brought the defense to critical mass on his own and has earned the contract lottery prize. Dennard has looked pretty good himself lately.

The Pats will do their due diligence on Talib, and may attempt an extension, but that price tag will acknowledge the basket of risk he carries in terms of longevity. He may be a top 10 talent, but for a player that has to endure season after season under contract, he is probably a top 5 risk in terms of personal conduct. To date, he has not earned this deal in terms of long-term value to the team. I believe he can be great with the Pats, but he needs to undo a history of poor decision-making before he earns a long-term contract appropraite for a great corner. If he would take incentive and personal conduct clauses out the wazoo for a long-term deal, a deal that means low to no risk for the Pats, excellent. Otherwise, the Pats would be stupid to ride that train. The fact the Bucs traded him for very little should be telling (and yes, I acknowledge that was the price of a season rental, not for a long-term relationship, but the Bucs were playoff hopefuls at the time who would want good players now).

 

[Ivan]

He plays both ways?

Yep, he runs left and right. I wouldn't hesitate to give him veterans minimum.

 

[CityOfChampions]

I want to sign him asap.

 

[CityOfChampions]

a lot of people are saying talib is making the secondary better which may be the case...but i still think without him they would be getting better on their own no?

i think getting him is a big reason as to why the secondary has gotten better.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'd forgotten about Lardarius Webb since he's been on IR, but he was emerging as one of the better CBs before his ACL injury. Not in the Revis/Sherman class, but the next level down. He got a 6 year/$50M extension this year with $20M guaranteed, less than what Finnegan and Carr got, and he's a much better CB.

It's also interesting just to compare Webb's and Alfonzo Dennard's rookie numbers. Webb was a bit of a surprise as a 3rd round pick in 2009. He had a good rookie season and then progressed steadily from there. But so far Dennard's had the better season:

Webb (16 games): 4 games started, 35 tackles, 6 PD, 0 INT, 0 FF, 0 TD, 1 sack
Dennard (through 13 games): 6 games started, 34 tackles, 7 PD, 3 INT, 1 FF, 1 TD, 0 sacks

Obviously there's no guarantee that Dennard can progress the way Webb did, but he's off to a heck of a start.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Good post. I disagree with you re: Vollmer and McCourty, but otherwise spot on.

Which part do you disagree with re: Vollmer? Do you disagree that someone like the Bears will likely offer him a long-term, large-guarantee contract, or that the Pats should match that offer if it comes?

 

[BradyFTW!]

a lot of people are saying talib is making the secondary better which may be the case...but i still think without him they would be getting better on their own no?

I do think that the secondary would be getting better even without him, mostly because Dennard has been excellent since he got healthy. But it's important not to understate Talib, because acquiring him allowed the Pats to upgrade half of the starting secondary by committing McCourty to safety. Before Talib got here and Dennard emerged, McCourty was by far the best corner and the best safety on this team, so it's been good to have enough depth at one position to make him unneeded at the other.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I have to say I'm pretty surprised at the response to what I've seen so far -- sort of okay play by Talib. He's been fine. It's coincided with an uptick in the D -- and I guess we can give him SOME credit for that, ripple effects and all -- but I don't see how his performance warrants such unanimity when it comes to giving the guy a long-term deal. Hope you guys are right and he does merit such consideration -- and, in that case, that the Pats sign him up. But I'm just not sure what everyone here is seeing that I haven't.

I think it's because we're all resigned to the fact that, in today's NFL, good corners get $7M per, and great ones get up to $12M. With Talib, there's at least the prospect of getting an 'A-' talent without paying that kind of premium.

 

[BradyFTW!]

One way to think about the FA bidding is -- is a guy worth more on the Pats or elsewhere?

• Vollmer might be a LT elsewhere, which makes him a strong candidate to leave.
• Welker seems to benefit from a highly accurate QB -- but he played very well for Cassell too. He might be worth even more to a team with a shaky QB.
• Edelman -- well, that depends in part on whether Welker stays.
• Talib -- he's worth more on a team where he toes the line than one one where he doesn't.

Same thinking should probably be applied to McCourty. Someone will be willing to pay him as a CB, probably a team whose corners primarily play in zone coverage*. If his ability as a corner sets his market value, then he'll be awfully expensive for a free safety.

*The Pats used to be that type of team. They certainly weren't against Houston on Monday, though, and while the announcers seemed shocked to see it, it wasn't surprising at all if you've been paying attention to the defense for the last few weeks. There's a reason why Belichick drafted Dennard and Dowling and traded for Talib, and we're now seeing it.

 

[Lurks_All_Day]

Yes, please.



4 years, roughly $28M or 5/$35M. Not quite Brandon Carr / Cortland Finnegan money, but not chump change. And probably with some conduct clauses built in.

Depends on the "conduct". Can he cavort with strippers a la Gronk? Or is it just arrestable offenses, notwithstanding NFL player policy? IMO, please doget smashed on Sunday night, after the win, with as many hoes as possible.... but don't let it impact the next game up.

If you're breaking the law, or contravening the NFL player policies that result in a suspension....

GTFO

Concerning the money, I'm in no position to comment. That's for Miguel.

 

[NormZauchin]

Man.....

I would hate to see them let Woodhead walk. The guy is a spark plug off the bench. He's reliable and durable.

Agree completely. Vereen is good, but he has been injured. Demps is small and light and was put on IR before he played a down in the regular season. Neither Ridley nor Bolden are pass catchers coming out of the backfield. It pays to have durable Danny as one of two third down backs.

And the price will not be high. Woodhead signed a team-friendly extension during his first season here. Nor does he have the kind of resume that would command big bucks elsewhere.

 

[deroc5050]

The defense is noticeably better and more aggressive since he's been here. I hope they do what it take to re-sign him, within reason of course, but it's been a great fit for both sides so far.

Even Bellichicks sub par defenses always improve by November/December. I admit he has allowed to be more aggresive but its not just him that has improved. Are linebacker play has improved greatly, I would wait until the play offs are over to make any decisions. But yeah I would like to sign him. He was the missing piece hopefully we stay healthy for the rest of the season.

 

[mayoclinic]

Vince Wilfork on the difference Aqib Talib has made to the defense:

After Monday night's game, Wilfork credited cornerback Aqib Talib with bringing a certain swagger to the defense that may contribute to its playing more loosely.

"He's [brought] an attitude," Wilfork said. "He don't say much, he just practice his tail off. He fit right in with everybody else. He's a physical player. Big, strong, physical player. I don't know if he brought anything to the secondary or not, but I can tell you what he bring on the practice field and what he bring in the game. He's a special player, and I'm glad we got him."

Patriots defense gaining confidence in recent weeks

Not sure about the "I don't know if he brought anything to the secondary or not" part, but the rest sounds good.

 

[JackBauer]

Which part do you disagree with re: Vollmer? Do you disagree that someone like the Bears will likely offer him a long-term, large-guarantee contract, or that the Pats should match that offer if it comes?

I suppose it's possible and it's worth not underestimating the stupidity of certain NFL teams, but I don't see why other teams would be less wary than the Patriots when it comes to signing him to big money. Seems like a rather foolish gamble, IMO.

I also don't think we've seen enough from Cannon to establish that he's capable of starting at RT, though I also certainly wouldn't foreclose on that being a possibility.

 

[Sciz]

I suppose it's possible and it's worth not underestimating the stupidity of certain NFL teams, but I don't see why other teams would be less wary than the Patriots when it comes to signing him to big money. Seems like a rather foolish gamble, IMO.

I think it makes perfect sense for a GM who is worried about his job security to sign Vollmer. If Vollmer stays healthy and plays well, then it would help the team do well and the GM keep his job. If Vollmer gets hurt or plays poorly, then the GM gets fired and doesn't have to deal with the negative long-term effects of the contract. So while Belichick always has to balance the short term and long term effects of a contract, there are a few GMs who are only worried about keeping their job in the short term and have far bigger problems than worrying about a contract's impact a few years later.

 

[coolguy]

If he wins us a championship he can have a blank check for all i care:rocker:.