Let's Lock Talib Up Now Longterm before FA

[MoLewisrocks]

I am heartened to hear the reports that Welker and the Pats have already worked out an extension that they cannot announce yet.

That's the second time I've seen that posted here but I have yet to see a source or any corroberation of any such report.

 

[Deus Irae]

Who the hell cares?

We actually have a defense for a change, and this guy is a big reason why.

I want him locked up as soon as possible.

Maybe not the best choice of words given the player being talked about.

 

[patfanken]

A Brady extension (can't restructure because of what it would do to 2014 and a tag price going forward not to mention no leverage since his deal is now effectively fully guaranteed) will significantly lower Tom's cap. By several to ten million +.

I didn't know about not being able to restructure. Do you think Tom will do some long term extension that would play him, but ease the cap burden long term. Is it legal to extend payments out past were its likely that he'll be retired?

That said, you are right and they can't just afford everyone (without sacrificing something else). Talib has been a solid acquisition. He's not a pro bowl shutdown corner from what we've seen. I don't know where he sees himself or where they see him, but there may be other candidates for what this team needed which was just solid play at corner and safety and stability via moving McCourty to safety. As Bedard has noted, they've been blitzing more due to matchups with play action QB's and blitzed more after Talib left the game than when he was in. Just feeling a certain comfort level in the secondary and with the improving play of a young front 7 moreso than Talib per say may be afoot.

I agree 100%. There are a lot more reasons for the defense's resurgence than just Aqib Talib. However unless they are very sure Dowling can come back next year and be THIS year's Talib, I think they have to try and sign him,

The only other alternative is to let him go and sign one of the other, less character risky, CB's that will be out there. Steve Smith and Quentin Jammer would be my first choices off the top of my head, but neither would be cheap. That's the problem. The same issues that would make Talib more affordable, make him more risky.

As for tag prices, they won't go up much given the new formula but estimate OL at $9-10M, CB at $10-11M and WR for Welker because it would be 120% of his 2012 tag at $11.4M. You have to look at unit allocation and while CB and WR aren't costing much OL already has a LG making $8.5M. Although Arrington is a FA in 2013 and while he'd be cheaper as a slot corner he's still gonna cost them $3-4M if he's not overvalued elsewhere. Then you have to factor in durability. Then you have to project...

WOW! those franchise numbers are at a point where I can't understand why a player would be pissed, but that's me. One thing for sure is that Franchising any of the big 3 is not likely at those numbers. Its not going to be easy.

 

[neuronet]

Hip issues are bad for corner. Caution important here...

 

[The Gr8est]

That's the second time I've seen that posted here but I have yet to see a source or any corroberation of any such report.

I don't remember the source for sure, but I'm thinking a tweet by Sheila Manza Young.

I'd consider it strictly rumor at this stage, but still encouraging to hear.

 

[everlong]

Your probably right. The number is likely closer to 3. But consider this. You are paying Edelman not only for being a WR (a role which would likely expand if he comes back), but as one of the better PR's in the league, as well as an ace on several other special teams. You are paying Lloyd just to be a WR....period.

BTW- This injury might be a blessing in disguise to some degree (I really would love him playing right now) He was blossoming right before our eye, almost like the defense. As he became a more integral part of the offense, his value would have become more apparent. Maybe now, fewer teams will go after him. I know the Jets will (if they have any money to spare)

Based on what they paid guys like Faulk, Green and Vrabel in comparison to the top players at the time there is certainly some validity to your point about paying Edelman for being a jack of all trades but master of none. If he could stay on the field I could make a case for him making 4M. I just think with his injury history they'll look to make it less. Upper 2's per year may be right in the end.

Regarding the Jets. I think with Patriots players having such a front row seat for that circus they would really have to overpay for somebody to go there. If that Pats offer 3M and lets say somebody like the Colts 4M. What would the Jets have to offer above that to make it worth your suffering? Play they're cap strapped.

 

[aluminum seats]

The thread seems to have expanded beyond Talib....

So, on that note: the injury to Edelman might benefit the Pats long-term, as it might cost less to keep him than it would have otherwise.

 

[Deus Irae]

Based on what they paid guys like Faulk, Green and Vrabel in comparison to the top players at the time there is certainly some validity to your point about paying Edelman for being a jack of all trades but master of none. If he could stay on the field I could make a case for him making 4M. I just think with his injury history they'll look to make it less. Upper 2's per year may be right in the end.

Regarding the Jets. I think with Patriots players having such a front row seat for that circus they would really have to overpay for somebody to go there. If that Pats offer 3M and lets say somebody like the Colts 4M. What would the Jets have to offer above that to make it worth your suffering? Play they're cap strapped.

The team loves Edelman. The question, IMO, is whether the team loves slotting for value more than it loves Edelman. $4 million would be a huge overpayment for him.

 

[mayoclinic]

We could use the franchise tag on him.

I think that's the perfect way to deal with him this off-season.


Right now is NOT the time to be talking contracts. He's only been here 4 weeks, and its almost playoff time.

Belichick and Kraft barely know Talib right now. Franchising him would give BB and Kraft a whole extra year to get to know him, personally. That way they will know if they can trust him or not. To see if he's matured or not.

I don't see him getting a huge contract from us. Especially with his past issues. And since he's done well so far, I don't see BB just letting him walk after only having him for a few weeks at the end of the season. Franchise Tag is the way to go.

I'm a huge fan of the guy and I see his impact as much as you guys, but let's calm down a little bit. First off it's been just 4 games, and we haven't seen a playoff game yet. Second, the guy is a huge risk to be signing long term, bigger risk than Randy Moss was in '08, and he eventually had to be shipped out. LUCKILY we were able to rip off Minnesota before they waived him too. He's younger, but one more suspension could spell doom for him and he's got alot more baggage.

IF this continues through the end of the season I wouldn't mind a 2 year extension. Any more than that may be too risky. These guys that come at a discount like Talib, Bodden, Springs,etc. AND have the ability to solidify one CB position, usually there is a catch. We saw the catch with Bodden (couldn't stay healthy after year 1) and Springs (injuries and character issues). Keep it short term and stay active in the draft/FA for a long term answer.

No way. A four game flier on a guy doesn't warrant a long term commitment. Let's see how the rest of the season pans out and go from there. This guy needs to be a model citizen for more than a month before I'd consider a new deal.

And, to review, the Pats policy (right or wrong) has been they generally don't value the CB position when it comes to big money contracts. Ty Law was a borderline HOF CB, and they didn't exactly shower him with $$. They let Asante walk. They have always looked to a veteran du jour for filling holes. I am not saying it's right, merely just pointing out how I see it. No way they lock up this guy after a month.

Keep in mind that Dennard is starting to emerge as well and with another decent cornerback there with him, he may mature enough next year to take over Corner 1 duties.

I view it slightly differently. What you are paying for by giving Talib a long term deal early is the security of locking up continuity in your secondary, and to a large extent, in your defense.

The Pats have been using a band-aid approach to their secondary for a long, long time. It seemed like we had something going with Bodden, Butler, McCourty, Meriweather, McGowan and Chung going into 2010. But Bodden's and McGowan fell apart due to injuries, Meriweather and Butler regressed, and now Chung's regressed. Only McCourty has emerged from that group, and even he had some major issues in 2011.

We've finally reached a point where we've got some stability in the secondary, and where the coaching staff appears to have both a consistent direction and confidence in the personnel. The fact that they were confident enough to have Talib shadow Andre Johnson, and the way they've been using the front 7 are testimony to that. It's been a transformation. Does anyone want to go back to the way things were? It's fine to say that Alfonzo Dennard may emerge as a #1 caliber CB but there's no guarantee of that, and the really good defenses have 2 solid CBs plus playmaking safeties (look at San Francisco and Seattle, for example; those are the model secondaries IMHO).

Sign Talib to an extension now and you have long term continuity in the secondary for at least 2 years beyond this year and and probably more. Arrington can probably be re-signed for reasonable money (I'd guess something less than what Steve Gregory got, and if not he's expendable; I don't see a huge market for him, and he's proven he's not a starting caliber outside CB). Dennard is under contract through 2015, as are Tavon Wilson and Nate Ebner. McCourty's under contract through 2014 (and will no doubt get a long term extension once the cap goes up in 2014), as are Steve Gregory and Ras-I Dowling (who people trash but who good have excellent value as a 3rd press-man CB if he ever gets healthy, especially with a role model like Talib to learn behind; having 3 guys with those kind of skills would be terrific). Marquice Cole is a FA this year but shouldn't be too hard to re-sign; he has value, but is replaceable. McCourty, Wilson, Dowling, Dennard and Ebner are all on their rookie deals, and Gregory is at fairly reasonable cost. So even if you pay Talib, the overall price for the secondary is not that high compared to some.

Locking up Talib now ensures continuity in the secondary. It ensures that you have at least 2 starting caliber outside CBs who can play press-man and allow McCourty to stay at FS where he can refine his instincts and skills. It keeps you out of moving guys around week to week and constantly patching things. It allows you to keep your front 7 focusing forward and not having Spikes and Hightower caught in coverage dilemmas. It keeps you from going out and having to find another CB in FA, who may or may not be a good fit, and having to try and build chemistry all over again.

With Dowling coming back next year we would have a secondary that looks something like this:

CB: Talib (extended), Dennard (2015), Dowling (2014), Arrington (extended), Cole (extended)
S: McCourty (2014), Gregory (2014), Wilson (2015), Ebner (2015)

That seems pretty solid to me. There might be enough money left over to add a FA S if the price isn't too high. I like the idea of someone like Kenny Phillips if the Giants don't re-sign him due to cap reasons (his injury history may keep his market value down). But it's not a high priority with that nucleus in place, which is a huge step forward from 6 weeks ago.

I think that kind of stability is worth paying up front for. In addition, going in to this season we were looking at Pat Chung and Kyle Arrington as starting DBs being FAs after this season, and the prospect of having to pay $5-6M/year to Chung and possibly close to that much to Arrington. That's long gone. Chung is gone IMHO, and if Arrington stays it will be as a slot CB/STer at around $2-$2.5M/year. So there should be some money to spend on the DB position.

Is there risk to locking Talib up this early? Sure. Look at the Pros and Cons:

- Pros: Probably get Talib cheaper than if we waited, plus the long term stability and security of having the secondary mostly set and being able to develop the defense accordingly

- Cons: Paying big money to Talib after a short time only to have him implode given his off-field history, plus the usual risk of injury and effect on other areas of the team that goes with any significant contract

While we haven't had a year or two to evaluate Talib, the Pats have had more time than they had with an outside FA like Adalius Thomas. And so far things have looked very promising, on both sides. Talib clearly has embraces being a Patriot and the Patriot way. He's talked about finding a "home" and the excitement of playing on a winner. Mike Reiss noted last week that Talib respectfully declined being interviewed for Reiss' "Football Journeys" series because he said that he wanted the focus to be on the team, not on him. That sounds like a Patriot. The players have been vocal about his work ethic and attitude - not just the secondary, but other defensive players, and guys like Brady, too. And BB had this uncommonly candid comment after the Houston game:

Q: What did you think of the performance that Aqib Talib had before he went down? What went into the decision to have him shadow Andre Johnson? Can you think of any other guys you’ve used to shadow a receiver? Usually you like to keep players on one side?

BB: “I thought Aqib did a good job. I think he’s done a good job for us. He works hard. I really like him; I like the way he prepares. I like the way he competes. He really did a good job for us on punt return too. We singled him up out there and he did a nice job on that. As far as the matchups go, we’ve done that from time to time. It depends on what the matchups are, what the game plan is. We can do it or we can not do it; I don’t think it’s that big of a thing.”

It Is What It Is » Bill Belichick: Niners defense ‘really impressive’

That's practically gushing, coming from BB. Usually he answers such questions with something like "Well, I think he did some good things, and he could have done some things better; we'll have to look at the film and see" or something to that effect.

Sure, it's early. Sure, it's a bit of a risk. But given where we've been and where we seem to be heading since Talib arrived, I think it's a risk worth taking if Talib wants to stay a Patriot. He's better than guys like Brandon Carr, Cortland Finnegan and Jason McCourty. At his best he's a $10-12M/year CB. His history probably won't let him get that, even if he plays well this year and tests the market. If he's willing to take something in the $7M/year range in order to have a home and long term security (maybe even a bit more, especially if there are some protections built in), I think it would be well worth it to lock him up early and not be band-aiding the secondary any more.

 

[mayoclinic]

The team loves Edelman. The question, IMO, is whether the team loves slotting for value more than it loves Edelman. $4 million would be a huge overpayment for him.

I think I'm as big an Edelman fan as almost anyone here (except maybe Ken), but I have to agree: $4M would be a huge overpayment for Edelman.

 

[Double TE]

I think I'm as big an Edelman fan as almost anyone here (except maybe Ken), but I have to agree: $4M would be a huge overpayment for Edelman.

He plays both ways?

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I didn't know about not being able to restructure. Do you think Tom will do some long term extension that would play him, but ease the cap burden long term. Is it legal to extend payments out past were its likely that he'll be retired?

Tom has always worked with them to get what he needs within reason structurally of what they can afford. My guess is he gets a 3-4 year extension (on top of his remaining 2 years) that allows them to spread and manage the cap hits. How much bonus money he gets and how many more restructures they attempt will determine if there is any dead cap in the event he can't play out that term of deal (5-6 seasons). And as for Indy it shouldn't be an issue since his replacement's cap hit won't be substantial. For cap purposes you can't extend payments out past the end of the deal (what Denver did with Elway twice and got caught and docked a 3rd round draft pick by Tagliabue who determined it was an inadvertent mistake by someone no longer on the payroll...), although you can defer guaranteed cash at interest. And as stable as this franchise is that likely wouldn't be an issue for Brady, although Kraft isn't cash strapped....

I agree 100%. There are a lot more reasons for the defense's resurgence than just Aqib Talib. However unless they are very sure Dowling can come back next year and be THIS year's Talib, I think they have to try and sign him,

The only other alternative is to let him go and sign one of the other, less character risky, CB's that will be out there. Steve Smith and Quentin Jammer would be my first choices off the top of my head, but neither would be cheap. That's the problem. The same issues that would make Talib more affordable, make him more risky.

WOW! those franchise numbers are at a point where I can't understand why a player would be pissed, but that's me. One thing for sure is that Franchising any of the big 3 is not likely at those numbers. Its not going to be easy.

Guys who are worth the tag are usually looking at a long term deal in FA that would pay them twice the tag or more in signing bonus and guaranteed money. That's why a player is pissed. If he goes down in a heap in his franchise season he's often looking at a prove it or inventivized deal elsewhere going forward. Hey, I'd be happy making the interest on any of these guys bank accounts just once. But then, I'm not an elite athlete with a limited earnings window. If I were I'd be less loyal to a team run by a billionaire than concerned about my own self too.

 

[The Gr8est]

Based on what they paid guys like Faulk, Green and Vrabel in comparison to the top players at the time there is certainly some validity to your point about paying Edelman for being a jack of all trades but master of none. If he could stay on the field I could make a case for him making 4M. I just think with his injury history they'll look to make it less. Upper 2's per year may be right in the end.

Regarding the Jets. I think with Patriots players having such a front row seat for that circus they would really have to overpay for somebody to go there. If that Pats offer 3M and lets say somebody like the Colts 4M. What would the Jets have to offer above that to make it worth your suffering? Play they're cap strapped.

The Rats shrewdly constructed a roster devoid of legitimate NFL-quality talent while the Pats have superior FAs coming out their ears, who could be huge improvements to said pathetic roster.

Fortunately the Rats also screwed up their cap extending their mediocre talent and won't be able to take full advantage.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I view it slightly differently. What you are paying for by giving Talib a long term deal early is the security of locking up continuity in your secondary, and to a large extent, in your defense.

We've finally reached a point where we've got some stability in the secondary, and where the coaching staff appears to have both a consistent direction and confidence in the personnel. The fact that they were confident enough to have Talib shadow Andre Johnson, and the way they've been using the front 7 are testimony to that. It's been a transformation. Does anyone want to go back to the way things were? It's fine to say that Alfonzo Dennard may emerge as a #1 caliber CB but there's no guarantee of that, and the really good defenses have 2 solid CBs plus playmaking safeties (look at San Francisco and Seattle, for example; those are the model secondaries IMHO).

Sign Talib to an extension now and you have long term continuity in the secondary for at least 2 years beyond this year and and probably more.

I think long-term security is exactly what you *don't* get if you sign Talib to a long-term deal.

Sure, it could work out. Talib could reform himself, avoid injuries and play at a consistently high-level for years. But that's a crap shoot, not "long-term security".

Long-term security is getting a player that has high character, isn't injury-prone or coming off significant injuries that could catch up with him as well as having proven his consistency on the field. That is not Talib.

I agree that Talib has been a major part of the transformation of the secondary. But there's a reason why an AFC GM thought that the Patriots dramatically overpaid for Talib by trading a 4th round draft pick (and getting back a 7th). He's certainly seeing a different picture than the one you're painting - because you're painting is focusing on 4 weeks of on-field play for the Patriots. If that's all we should look at, I might agree with you. But that's definitely only one piece of the puzzle.

 

[patfanken]

I view it slightly differently. What you are paying for by giving Talib a long term deal early is the security of locking up continuity in your secondary, and to a large extent, in your defense.

The Pats have been using a band-aid approach to their secondary for a long, long time. It seemed like we had something going with Bodden, Butler, McCourty, Meriweather, McGowan and Chung going into 2010. But Bodden's and McGowan fell apart due to injuries, Meriweather and Butler regressed, and now Chung's regressed. Only McCourty has emerged from that group, and even he had some major issues in 2011.

We've finally reached a point where we've got some stability in the secondary, and where the coaching staff appears to have both a consistent direction and confidence in the personnel. The fact that they were confident enough to have Talib shadow Andre Johnson, and the way they've been using the front 7 are testimony to that. It's been a transformation. Does anyone want to go back to the way things were? It's fine to say that Alfonzo Dennard may emerge as a #1 caliber CB but there's no guarantee of that, and the really good defenses have 2 solid CBs plus playmaking safeties (look at San Francisco and Seattle, for example; those are the model secondaries IMHO).

Sign Talib to an extension now and you have long term continuity in the secondary for at least 2 years beyond this year and and probably more. Arrington can probably be re-signed for reasonable money (I'd guess something less than what Steve Gregory got, and if not he's expendable; I don't see a huge market for him, and he's proven he's not a starting caliber outside CB). Dennard is under contract through 2015, as are Tavon Wilson and Nate Ebner. McCourty's under contract through 2014 (and will no doubt get a long term extension once the cap goes up in 2014), as are Steve Gregory and Ras-I Dowling (who people trash but who good have excellent value as a 3rd press-man CB if he ever gets healthy, especially with a role model like Talib to learn behind; having 3 guys with those kind of skills would be terrific). Marquice Cole is a FA this year but shouldn't be too hard to re-sign; he has value, but is replaceable. McCourty, Wilson, Dowling, Dennard and Ebner are all on their rookie deals, and Gregory is at fairly reasonable cost. So even if you pay Talib, the overall price for the secondary is not that high compared to some.

Locking up Talib now ensures continuity in the secondary. It ensures that you have at least 2 starting caliber outside CBs who can play press-man and allow McCourty to stay at FS where he can refine his instincts and skills. It keeps you out of moving guys around week to week and constantly patching things. It allows you to keep your front 7 focusing forward and not having Spikes and Hightower caught in coverage dilemmas. It keeps you from going out and having to find another CB in FA, who may or may not be a good fit, and having to try and build chemistry all over again.

With Dowling coming back next year we would have a secondary that looks something like this:

CB: Talib (extended), Dennard (2015), Dowling (2014), Arrington (extended), Cole (extended)
S: McCourty (2014), Gregory (2014), Wilson (2015), Ebner (2015)

That seems pretty solid to me. There might be enough money left over to add a FA S if the price isn't too high. I like the idea of someone like Kenny Phillips if the Giants don't re-sign him due to cap reasons (his injury history may keep his market value down). But it's not a high priority with that nucleus in place, which is a huge step forward from 6 weeks ago.

I think that kind of stability is worth paying up front for. In addition, going in to this season we were looking at Pat Chung and Kyle Arrington as starting DBs being FAs after this season, and the prospect of having to pay $5-6M/year to Chung and possibly close to that much to Arrington. That's long gone. Chung is gone IMHO, and if Arrington stays it will be as a slot CB/STer at around $2-$2.5M/year. So there should be some money to spend on the DB position.

Is there risk to locking Talib up this early? Sure. Look at the Pros and Cons:

- Pros: Probably get Talib cheaper than if we waited, plus the long term stability and security of having the secondary mostly set and being able to develop the defense accordingly

- Cons: Paying big money to Talib after a short time only to have him implode given his off-field history, plus the usual risk of injury and effect on other areas of the team that goes with any significant contract

While we haven't had a year or two to evaluate Talib, the Pats have had more time than they had with an outside FA like Adalius Thomas. And so far things have looked very promising, on both sides. Talib clearly has embraces being a Patriot and the Patriot way. He's talked about finding a "home" and the excitement of playing on a winner. Mike Reiss noted last week that Talib respectfully declined being interviewed for Reiss' "Football Journeys" series because he said that he wanted the focus to be on the team, not on him. That sounds like a Patriot. The players have been vocal about his work ethic and attitude - not just the secondary, but other defensive players, and guys like Brady, too. And BB had this uncommonly candid comment after the Houston game:



It Is What It Is » Bill Belichick: Niners defense ‘really impressive’

That's practically gushing, coming from BB. Usually he answers such questions with something like "Well, I think he did some good things, and he could have done some things better; we'll have to look at the film and see" or something to that effect.

Sure, it's early. Sure, it's a bit of a risk. But given where we've been and where we seem to be heading since Talib arrived, I think it's a risk worth taking if Talib wants to stay a Patriot. He's better than guys like Brandon Carr, Cortland Finnegan and Jason McCourty. At his best he's a $10-12M/year CB. His history probably won't let him get that, even if he plays well this year and tests the market. If he's willing to take something in the $7M/year range in order to have a home and long term security (maybe even a bit more, especially if there are some protections built in), I think it would be well worth it to lock him up early and not be band-aiding the secondary any more.

That was funny. I'm reading this well thought out, almost impassioned plea to resign Talib and all I could think of was, "well how much would you offer?" Then I'd read another 4 inches of text and I'd be still thinking "well how much would you give him?" FINALLY after going through a tome long enough that only I would appreciate, I got my answer in the last damned paragraph. What a way to hold an audience.

Here's the problem. It sounds nice and logical, but these guys never acknowledge their own flaws. Even if they do, their agents certainly don't (anyone know who reps him?). You acknowledge yourself that he's a $10+MM talent. Do you really think he'll take something in the range of $7MM? I only wish it were true. If there were any common sense in this Welker would have signed for 2 years for $8.5MM guaranteed I hope you are right.

 

[mayoclinic]

There's a reason why an AFC GM thought that the Patriots dramatically overpaid for Talib by trading a 4th round draft pick (and getting back a 7th).

And there's a reason why 10 GMs passed on JJ Watt, and 31 passed on Tom Brady.

Maybe that GM's right. Maybe he's not. I said there was risk involved. But I also said that I believed the risk was worth it. Because either we extend Talib or we go back to the drawing board with the secondary, and I really don't want to do that. At best we find another CB and plug him in and hope he gives us what Talib gives us now. And if we're going to extend Talib, we'll just pay more in the long run to extend him later. And the franchise tag for CBs will be a flat hit of about $11M to the cap, which is not terribly friendly compared to how a long term deal could be structured.

Again, there's some risk, and it depends on the FO and coaching staff's assessment of Talib after 4+ weeks. How confident are they in the kid? How much does he want to be a part of something like this? I get good vibes, but I can't truly assess the situation. But if the assessment is good, I think the reward is worth the risk, given the alternatives. Not everyone's going to agree, just as not everyone agreed with the Talib trade in the first place.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

It's been four games. I'm not basing any long-term contract on four games. Dude's gonna want to break the bank.

this...he is going to want a good chunk..he will be gone after this year IMO..just get someone else like they always do then suck for half the year. No way they will pay him the $$ he will want unless we make the SB and plays outstanding.

 

[The Gr8est]

I think long-term security is exactly what you *don't* get if you sign Talib to a long-term deal.

Sure, it could work out. Talib could reform himself, avoid injuries and play at a consistently high-level for years. But that's a crap shoot, not "long-term security".

Long-term security is getting a player that has high character, isn't injury-prone or coming off significant injuries that could catch up with him as well as having proven his consistency on the field. That is not Talib.

I agree that Talib has been a major part of the transformation of the secondary. But there's a reason why an AFC GM thought that the Patriots dramatically overpaid for Talib by trading a 4th round draft pick (and getting back a 7th). He's certainly seeing a different picture than the one you're painting - because you're painting is focusing on 4 weeks of on-field play for the Patriots. If that's all we should look at, I might agree with you. But that's definitely only one piece of the puzzle.

Considering that the Pats traded two 5th round picks and one 6th for Ochocinco and Haynesworth, comparatively, Talib has been a bargain.

The Pats got nothing out of those two.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't remember the source for sure, but I'm thinking a tweet by Sheila Manza Young.

I'd consider it strictly rumor at this stage, but still encouraging to hear.

I follow Shalise and it wasn't her. In fact her partner at the Globe (Bedard) has remained on record that he doesn't expect him back because he doesn't expect the situation to be changed much from last season.

 

[MrNathanDrake]

Woodhead? I don't care if we re-sign him. Vareen is better and you can't pay everyone. Vollmer is a must as is Spikes and definitely Welker and then we also have McCourty and Ridley eventually right?

Man.....

I would hate to see them let Woodhead walk. The guy is a spark plug off the bench. He's reliable and durable.