Julian Edelman

[Deus Irae]

You mock the play of JE but why does Branch get a free pass? Simply because of past laurels? If that's the case lets dust off Troy Brown.

I don't think Branch got any younger/faster in the off season. He was Mr. Invisible for parts of last season but I'm sure that will all change once he gets healthy enough to play.

I don't think Branch has gotten a pass. Most people have him fighting for a roster spot. It's tough to evaluate his training camp play, though, when he's not practicing in training camp or playing in the exhibition game(s).

As for mocking Edelman, I think that's mostly being done in good fun. While some of us may be in a "show me" position with Edelman as a WR, I think most posters appreciate what he's done for the team during his career.

 

[Kontradiction]

If Wes Welker had played for the Giants no one would have ever heard of Victor Cruz

Manningham had some pretty solid seasons for the Giants and Cruz still broke through. If Edelman was this special of a talent, he would have cracked the line-up and performed by now. Until that happens, he's a halfway decent back-up option for spot duty behind the greatest slot receiver in the league right now.

 

[patfanken]

this isn't a good example K, Manningham and Welker/Edelman play entirely different positions. The fact is that the ONLY reason Cruz had an opportunity to get into the line up was injuries to the Giants WR corps....and to his credit he made the most of it. The point is that he had the opportunity, and except for a brief period in his rookie year, Edelman hasn't

 

[Gronkandez]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating someone else but...

Seriously, another Edelman thread!? Let me sum up the feelings of the board.

Edelbackers:"He can do it all, he's amazing!"

Naysayers "..but he can't do anything well, except return punts."

Edelbackers:"Go to hell! He's a football player! He's a rare breed! No one can do what he does...he's so versatile!"

Naysayers: "But is he good? What have you done for me lately"

Edelbackers:"HE WAS AMAZING IN 2009! He's just stuck behind the best slot receiver of all time. He can fill Welker's shoes admirably."


You get the idea.

 

[Reckedtrek]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating someone else but...

Seriously, another Edelman thread!? Let me sum up the feelings of the board.

Edelbackers:"He can do it all, he's amazing!"

Naysayers "..but he can't do anything well, except return punts."

Edelbackers:"Go to hell! He's a football player! He's a rare breed! No one can do what he does...he's so versatile!"

Naysayers: "But is he good? What have you done for me lately"

Edelbackers:"HE WAS AMAZING IN 2008! He's just stuck behind the best slot receiver of all time. He can fill Welker's shoes admirably."


You get the idea.

That pretty much sums up the last 5 pages. Actually it sums up the last 5 Edelman threads.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating someone else but...

Seriously, another Edelman thread!? Let me sum up the feelings of the board.

Edelbackers:"He can do it all, he's amazing!"

Naysayers "..but he can't do anything well, except return punts."

Edelbackers:"Go to hell! He's a football player! He's a rare breed! No one can do what he does...he's so versatile!"

Naysayers: "But is he good? What have you done for me lately"

Edelbackers:"HE WAS AMAZING IN 2008! He's just stuck behind the best slot receiver of all time. He can fill Welker's shoes admirably."


You get the idea.

I don't think even an Edelbacker like myself would claim he did amazing things for the Pats in 2008.

 

[Nehalem]

I don't think even an Edelbacker like myself would claim he did amazing things for the Pats in 2008.

Naysayer! How dare you question the receiving prowess of Edelman! :rocker:

 

[crew1954]

Forgive me for not reading the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating someone else but...

Seriously, another Edelman thread!? Let me sum up the feelings of the board.

Edelbackers:"He can do it all, he's amazing!"

Naysayers "..but he can't do anything well, except return punts."

Edelbackers:"Go to hell! He's a football player! He's a rare breed! No one can do what he does...he's so versatile!"

Naysayers: "But is he good? What have you done for me lately"

Edelbackers:"HE WAS AMAZING IN 2008! He's just stuck behind the best slot receiver of all time. He can fill Welker's shoes admirably."


You get the idea.

Shouldn't the terms be Edelweiss and Edelschwarze?

 

[Kontradiction]

this isn't a good example K, Manningham and Welker/Edelman play entirely different positions. The fact is that the ONLY reason Cruz had an opportunity to get into the line up was injuries to the Giants WR corps....and to his credit he made the most of it. The point is that he had the opportunity, and except for a brief period in his rookie year, Edelman hasn't

Edelman has had plenty of opportunities to crack the starting line-up. He hasn't delivered enough in those opportunities to do so. On top of that, the coaches have seen plenty of him in practice to keep him as a back-up. That's what he is, Ken. A back-up slot receiver to the best in the game.

 

[Reckedtrek]

The reason why he hasn't played a bigger role for the Pats is that every time they send JE and 10 teammates on the field, the Pats get called for too many men on the field. :rocker:

 

[Gronkandez]

I don't think even an Edelbacker like myself would claim he did amazing things for the Pats in 2008.

I changed it to 2009. I don't have a good memory in regards to the 2008-2010 seasons. I try to forget.

 

[Ring 6]

Its getting tougher and tougher for DI and Andy to justify their attacks on Edelman. So now they are just trying to beat down any opposition with their impressive post counts, close their eyes, and hope what everyone is seeing in camp is just a mirage.

I have posted one time in this thread.
My last Edelman post in the other thread that broke down the games you were patting him on the back for as a great Welker replacement to show the offense sputtered in almost everyone of those games, when unresponded to by you. Who is closing their eyes?
Are you seriously telling me that judging a 3 year vet by his play in games is obtuse and reports from camp saying nice things about him are a better gauge?

The poster who gave us the Miles Austin example make a good point, receivers can get better. From 18 receptions in 3 years to 80 something can happen when you are given the opportunity and looks. Antonio Brown had close to 200 fewer yards as a rookie than Edelman had, and now he's the #1 receiver for the Steelers. Jordy Nelson had similar production as Edelman in his rookie year and saw his receptions drop by a third in his second. I guess DI and Andy would have then dismissed him for this unpardonable sin. The point is that all three of these examples shined once they got the opportunity for consistent snaps and looks in the regular offense

No one disputes that players develop. Only you use a few examples of players developing as proof the guy you wish would develop is going to.
You do accept there are 100s of counter examples to what you just argued right?

Andy and DI are correct in this aspect of their flawed arguments. :Last season, Edelman, with only 2 years experience on any level player being a receiver, wasn't good enough to play the outside WR position. And I don't know for certain whether he can now. But I was at yesterday's practice and I saw Stallworth drop multiple balls. I saw Edelman catch everything throw to him and get extensive reps on the outside with the first group.(minus Lloyd)

Maybe, just maybe Andy and DI could possibly throw away their blinders and grant the POSSIBILITY that Edelman might be able to grow enough as a receiver to be able to play the outside WR position effectively. I still think his best position would be in the slot, but they have that Welker guy doing that job and he's pretty good.

So what you are saying is you would like me to abandon my opinion, ignore what I have seen, dismiss all of the facts and tell you nothing is impossible to make you feel better?
Why is it so distressing to you that someone views a player who has not produced as a player who is unlikely to produce?

BTW- I'm not saying that Edelman is going to have a "breakout" year. I can't say that because I'm still not sure he is going to get the opportunity to get enough reps to truly break out. Realistically he'd need to have someone get injured to get enough snaps in the regular offense to find out once and for all whether he can be a starting quality NFL receiver. You know sometimes you need someone else's misfortune to create the opportunity to get you your chance to shine. Just ask Tom Brady

Wouldn't a starting caliber WR find his way on to the field without needing others to get injured?
Wouldn't he beat out Ochocinco? Tijaun Underwood? Brandon Tate?
Tate was clearly and prominently ahead of Edelman in 2010, and in 2011 didn't see a snap at WR in Cincy where they only have 1 quality WR. Wouldn't it follow if all of the Cincy guys who aren't really starters could beat out Tate, Edelman should have? Is that crazy?

But just because Edelman might not "beat out" receivers who have much more experience and much more production doesn't mean that he can't do the job when he gets his true chance - Just as Brown, Austin and Nelson did. If Wes Welker had played for the Giants no one would have ever heard of Victor Cruz

So you think that what you have seen from Edelman tells you he is the same caliber of palyer of Brown, Austin, Nelson and Cruz? Really?

 

[Ivan]

I don't know why this forum is so polarized on JE. He is going to be on the roster this year so arguing/discussing/trashing/whatever is futile. Get over it and accept it. It is what it is to quote a famous coach.

The polarization comes from people claiming he can take over for Welker "seamlessly," which is patently absurd. Edelman is good once the ball is in his hands and is a versatile player who contributes on special teams, no one disputes that, what people take issue with is the constant claims that he can step right in for the greatest slot receiver in NFL history and the most productive WR in football the past 5 seasons, and since they actually base their claims on nothing it makes for a pretty harsh response. People do this to make the argument to get rid of Welker, which is also patently absurd, and Brady has made that clear by calling him "the best player on our team."They dump all over Welker and make ridiculous claims about Edelman, which is no fault of Edelman's just of those making the ridiculous claims and arguments.


That said, Hoyer > Brady................polarize away.

 

[Sivy]

I like pancakes

 

[BBass]

Why does Edelman need to be the next Welker to be worth a roster spot? Why can't he be what he is a good ST guy who can fill sub for Welker in injury situations, can play nickel CB in emergencies.

He is a solid player, and I can't think of a player on the Patriots or in the league that can/willing to do what he does as a player.

Welker is a top 10 receiver in the NFL and has been for half a decade, every short white guy with agility we pick up turns into a thread about being the next Wes Welker... Do we ever call 6th round tall white QB's the next Brady?

Welker is a special player, there are 31 other teams without a player like him but yet people think we have Edelman and now Ebert just waiting to be the next one.

 

[Mainefan]

I am an Edelman defender and it has never occurred to me to say he could take over from Welker seamlessly. We don't know. We do know he did pretty well as a rookie, but he's rarely had opportunities since. I love Welker. But if he gets hurt or we lose him in a contract dispute, I'm glad we have Edelman, because--while he might not take over seamlessly--he's already shown us in many different ways that he's not a dud. He's willing, and pretty much able, to do just ab out anything for the team. He never quits. If trouble comes our way, we might be very, very glad that we have him. I truly do not understand this dispute. What has the guy done wrong?

 

[Deus Irae]

I am an Edelman defender and it has never occurred to me to say he could take over from Welker seamlessly. We don't know. We do know he did pretty well as a rookie, but he's rarely had opportunities since. I love Welker. But if he gets hurt or we lose him in a contract dispute, I'm glad we have Edelman, because--while he might not take over seamlessly--he's already shown us in many different ways that he's not a dud. He's willing, and pretty much able, to do just ab out anything for the team. He never quits. If trouble comes our way, we might be very, very glad that we have him. I truly do not understand this dispute. What has the guy done wrong?

Who's saying the guy's done things wrong?

 

[supafly]

Do we ever call 6th round tall white QB's the next Brady?

Only 3rd round tall white QB's

 

[UK_Pat37]

Edelman's roster spot is safe because we haven't found a guy worth putting in his place. If Ebert could show he was a better receiver and could return punts as well, Edelman all of a sudden becomes far more expendable than most of you would like to think.

Think with your heads and not your hearts for crying out loud. In 3 years we have seen next to nothing but average receiving skills and a Guy who wouldn't be ale to do what Welker can and play at split end (considering our TEs more often than not fill the slot). He filled in admirably at DB but then eventually got showed up...he's an athlet who can fill a lot of tiny roles and to a decent standard. What has really saved him is ws an awesome punt returner.

Fortunately for him, despite Ebert showing some pretty solid route running and beautiful hands, he's not been able to find a niche on STs as a kick or punt returner...muffing a couple over the last few days.

I've heard Edelman has had some drop issues of late in camp...if he keeps that up, he better hope someone like Ebert doesn't make a late charge.

For now, his spot is safe but I can't see him beng here next year unless he takes below the bare minimum because he's not worth paying that much as a receiver if you can find some e to fill his role n punt returns.

You can find athletes who can fill a number of small roles easily. I've said it many a time, he's a bit of a tweener with his abilities. Ladles lots of things good, not one thing great. Guys like that aren't hard to find and most are desperate for a shot on a team like this.

 

[patfanken]

I have posted one time in this thread.

Which might be a record, I'm guessing

My last Edelman post in the other thread that broke down the games you were patting him on the back for as a great Welker replacement to show the offense sputtered in almost everyone of those games, when unresponded to by you. Who is closing their eyes?
Are you seriously telling me that judging a 3 year vet by his play in games is obtuse and reports from camp saying nice things about him are a better gauge?

Great. So now it was Edelman's fault that the Pats offense sputtered down the stretch in 2009. This would be filed under "grasping at straws". He had the 2nd best season of any rookie WR in the BB era. He had as much production as Jordy Nelson and twice as much Antonio Brown. The point is that he showed undeniable potential. His last 2 seasons have been derailed by getting few snaps and what few he got were often out of position.

No one disputes that players develop. Only you use a few examples of players developing as proof the guy you wish would develop is going to.
You do accept there are 100s of counter examples to what you just argued right?

What are you saying here. That there are 100's of examples of players who had never played WR in HS or college and came into the league and made an immediate impact? No there weren't 100's I doubt there were 10. And if any of them did (I'm think Hines Ward is one), they got one thing that Edelman hasn't gotten which is an opportunity to get consistent snap and looks at a position that fitted his skill set.

So what you are saying is you would like me to abandon my opinion, ignore what I have seen, dismiss all of the facts and tell you nothing is impossible to make you feel better? Why is it so distressing to you that someone views a player who has not produced as a player who is unlikely to produce?

No, Andy. You can continue to hold on to this opinion for as long as you want. And as to your question, let me ask one in return. Why is it so distressing to your that when someone views a young inexperienced player who hasn't had a opportunity to put up numbers, might be likely to be able to make that leap when he gets the opportunity to play regularly.

I'm guessing, if you had been a Steeler fan and got the news that Mike Vrabel had left to join the Patriots, your first response would have been. "good riddance. He never produced anything here anyway."

Wouldn't a starting caliber WR find his way on to the field without needing others to get injured? Wouldn't he beat out Ochocinco? Tijaun Underwood? Brandon Tate?
Tate was clearly and prominently ahead of Edelman in 2010, and in 2011 didn't see a snap at WR in Cincy where they only have 1 quality WR. Wouldn't it follow if all of the Cincy guys who aren't really starters could beat out Tate, Edelman should have? Is that crazy?

You are making the same old tired argument that we've discussed before. All the receivers you mention play different positions than Edelman. The slot receiver has a different skill set. If the Pats were so desperate for help at the outside receiver spot, why didn't they put Welker out there? Isn't he a starting quality WR? The answer is of course obvious. They didn't, because his skill set better served the team playing primarily in the slot.

I'm sure that you would agree that it takes separate skill sets to play ILB and OLB, yet they are both LB's Why can't you acknowledge that there are separate skill sets for WR's as well

So you think that what you have seen from Edelman tells you he is the same caliber of palyer of Brown, Austin, Nelson and Cruz? Really?

THAT's the point. I don't know yet. And I won't until he gets the OPPORTUNITY. Here's the crux of the matter. You look at the sum total of Edelman's tenure as a Patriot and have determined, unequivocally, that he cannot be a starting WR (either slot or outside). period. I look at the same evidence and have concluded that there is good chance that he MIGHT be that player (especially in the slot)

I think what offends me in this long running debate is your absolute certainty of your opinion despite some very good evidence, which even if you don't agree with it has merit. I on the other hand have never stated, with that same absolute certainty, that he could replace a good part of Welker's production. My position is, based on what I've seen when he got the opportunity to play the slot regularly, there was every indication that he COULD be that guy. And nothing coming from TC this season would lead me to believe otherwise. Even though, given the likely roster, there is little chance (outside of injury) that he'll get much of a chance this season either.