It is Absolutely Imperative That We Spend To The Cap This Year

[maverick4]

Nobody in that locker room took less so they could overpay someone else. They took less so we could afford to maintain above average quality depth and so we could pay market for some of our fringe guys rather than have to fill the blanks with minimum salary scrubs. They took it so that when the starter they play along side went down for the season we would have a guy behind him who would still given them a fighting chance of winning. That is the freakin' system. They could do what Daniel Snyder does and cut veteran players every year so he can overpay the FA players du jour.

Are we talking about the same thing here? I feel you have a complete misunderstanding of this thread.

Of course nobody 'took less so we could overpay someone else'. No sh*t sherlock. You're right about the second statement - players re-sign without seeking top dollar so the overall depth will be better. And what player will not jump ship immediately when he knows the team won't use all their dollars every year?

 

[HAMMERMILL]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

Much ado about nothing!
Please correct my memory but didn't Rickey Henderson,say something like
He would give certain effort,only for his pay level?

If everyone on the face of the earth only did what they we're paid for, we'de still be using sticks and stones.
Your paid (in any job)not for what you did but for what you can do in the future

 

[Oswlek]

The future is now.

How many chances will a franchise get at being recognized as a dynasty?


Tom Brady in the prime of his career.
3 super bowls in 5 years.
Why not go for it NOW?
A fourth SuperBowl in 6 years would place the Patriots up there with the great teams of all time.

It is good to be fiscally prudent....but at the expense of experienced and strong players?? Is the Patriots FO a "slave to their reputation"? Afraid to pull the trigger for being labelled as the greatest sin of all "overpaying"

All this cap space is not going to help them one iota THIS YEAR when they could have gone for it.



There were moves that could have been made...but for the fear "of overpaying"


Ty Law, Ben Leber, Keyshawn Johnson, keeping AViniaterri and or Branch.
Thay could have done all of these and still been under the cap.

Just a few counterthoughts:

1) The longest running "dynasty" that had the consensus best QB ever had three straight one-and-done playoff runs between SB #2 and #3. History still looks pretty kindly at them. They never won 4 in 6 yerars, either.

2) NE is not a "slave to overpaying". They just have concrete ideas of what a player's value to the team is. Many fans harp on the idea that underpaying players will cause dissention in the ranks, thus being the thing that brings NE to its collective knees. Well, how many historic examples of this are there, particularly compared to overpaying? Just about every season has a previously good team that is now rebuilding because they couldn't keep all of their good players and stay under the cap. It seems obvious to me what should be the larger concern.

3) I have already discussed Branch, Law and Vinatieri in this very thread. Please go back and review these posts and reply regarding the points made in them. If you continue to just throw names out there without doing so, it will lead me to believe that you are just stirring things up.

4) Keyshawn was never coming here, and his $5 joke made that clear.

5) Let's review who NE lost

* Willie - not healthy and likely would not have had that much more impact than Seau

* Ashworth - proved to be useless for Seattle

* Davis - has not caught a pass

* Givens - very underwhelming with TN

* Adam - would have helped, but he is hurt which was a primary concern.

* Branch - biggest loss, and has not been replaced. It is mostly on him that he is gone, however.

* Chatham, Dwight, etc - not evern worth discussing.

I personally feel that you are judging NE's FO without actually thinking things through.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

Actually the sports guy doesn't have a point. His too biggest points are that Brady took much less money for the benefit of the team and that the salary cap money can't be rolled over. As has been stated many times on this board he's wrong on both counts.

Don't get me wrong, I love the sports guy and had him autograph my book. I don't mind when he makes misinformed statements about other teams because no one really takes it seriously. I do hate it though when he spews out idiocy about the Pats/Sox (does he still hate the fact that they didn't resign Pedro) and misrepresents the fan bases. This bit on the Patriots yesterday REALLY annoyed me.

 

[MrTibbs]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060929

AGREED...............................

 

[maverick4]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060929

this is already being discussed here
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=42584

.

 

[mikey]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

Thusfar I have declined to opine on this subject. But man, it gets old. The team had no intention of trading Branch. They tried to bargain with him in good faith. He did not.

Did the team tried to bargin in "good faith"?

I don't know.

The team has low-balled all their offers, from Bruschi to Brady to Branch.

All the team's offers are below market value.

.

 

[RayClay]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

I believe he is factually incorrect about Brady's contract and the use of excess cap money.

I'll defer to others, however, as I don't have that information.

 

[PatsWorldChamps]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

i believe he is also incorrect about the remaining cap room.

also, to say manning got $99M and brady got $60M is poor journalism... they could sign jake plummer to a $10 BILLION dollar contract; so what? the key to NFL contracts is HOW the money is structured... dorkboy made no mention of that... sensationalism.

the money CAN be rolled forward.

when have the patriots signed a "marquee" player? no one b1tched when the lombardi's poured in.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

So far, historically, the Pats do tend to spend to the cap. They'll be time enough for countin', when the dealin's done.

Yeah, I'd like to see them spend to the cap too, and I see no reason to believe they won't. I'd like to see them knock out big chunks of bills that will be due in the next few years. Then I'd like to see them get ultra-aggressive next year, with the extra cash, and with the understanding that spending a dollar today saves one tomorrow. I'd like to see them miss an inflation cycle, and as others follow suit, I'd like to see their operating costs go up.

I'd also like to drink chocolate champagne, and drive the tractor of innocence, to return to the life I never knew, as the band King Missile put it. Everybody's playing the FO game, and the pats are just a little better at it. Now nobody jump off a bridge here -- it's even possible the Pats misjudged this year's market!

Call me crazy, but I see that as a long way from incompetent.

When it comes to that FO, it's almost a guilty pleasure for me to watch people make dire predictions, and then see some great personnel move come through. Especially happy w/this year's draft, for example -- and the pundits were dogging just about all the picks.

Okay, rant over... summing up: I do believe the Pats will have spent to the cap this year. I do not believe the FO is in disarray, or has marching orders to hoard.

I do drink a lot of koolaid.

PFnV

 

[PatsSteve1]

Originally Posted by fillylabinga
I believe option bonuses, like signing bonuses, are prorated over the life of the contract for salary cap purposes.

You are correct.

* Miguel, is it allowable to convert those OB's into salary so the whole thing counted this year?

 

[flutie2phelan]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

That is so disappointing ... it really is.

We expect to read ignorance and illogicality from most fans.
While Simmons is as enthusiastic and ardent a fan as any of us here ...
i have come to expect good sense from him - despite his ardor.

 

[PatsSteve1]

IMO, cap space is an asset each team has to make thier teams as good as possible. It's like you won a kind of lottery where you were given a credit card with a 1 million a year balance on it, but if you didn't spend the whole million each year, you lost it. No carryover. The Patriots have ways to spend this year's available cap dollars before the cap year is over. It does NOT mean spending on new UFA's of which there isn't much available to do that anyway. But not trying to use that asset is wasting it just as if they gave Hank Poteat a 10 million signing bonus -
If guys who'd deals run out this year, like Koppen, Graham and Samuel were to leave, then cap dollars have to be spent next year just to fill those holes. Filling holes of guys who have left, unless the new guys are better players, doesn't make you team better. It just stays the same. Some cap dollars next year will go to higher salaries of players they will still have under contract. Some will go to new drafted players. I don't think you get better just filling holes every year.
The trick in todays NFL with free agency is to bring in players as good or better as the guys you lose, plus, new guys to improve other poistions and add to the roster each year to make your team better. I'd argue the last 2 years that hasn't happened. That's taking in all 53 guys on the roster. There are positions that may be better, but the overall roster has declined. Starters and backups included. That CAN change.

 

[Seymour93]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

when have the patriots signed a "marquee" player?

Harrison and Colvin. We traded for Dillon.

 

[Miguel]

Originally Posted by fillylabinga
I believe option bonuses, like signing bonuses, are prorated over the life of the contract for salary cap purposes.



* Miguel, is it allowable to convert those OB's into salary so the whole thing counted this year?

It is too late for Brady's since he got his money. As for Seymour, I think that he falls under this rule - " (a) The contract of a Veteran Player may not be renegotiated to increase the Salary to be paid to the player during the original terms of the contract for a period of twelve months after the player’s most recent contract renegotiation. ". His contract was renegotiated in April, 2006.

 

[pats1]

The future is now.

How many chances will a franchise get at being recognized as a dynasty?

Tom Brady in the prime of his career.
3 super bowls in 5 years.
Why not go for it NOW?
A fourth SuperBowl in 6 years would place the Patriots up there with the great teams of all time.

It is good to be fiscally prudent....but at the expense of experienced and strong players?? Is the Patriots FO a "slave to their reputation"? Afraid to pull the trigger for being labelled as the greatest sin of all "overpaying"

All this cap space is not going to help them one iota THIS YEAR when they could have gone for it.

There were moves that could have been made...but for the fear "of overpaying"

Ty Law, Ben Leber, Keyshawn Johnson, keeping AViniaterri and or Branch.
Thay could have done all of these and still been under the cap.

Who is this? Mikey in disguise? Did you miss the repsonse to Mikey's 10,000 threads with the same premise of "We need to surround Brady like the Colts did Manning."

And oh - if you think the Pats operate in a "Window" philosophy, you are SADLY mistaken. These Patriots do not "Make a run for it." by spending like crazy, then suffer the setbacks of its demise a la the 2004-6 Titans

Beioli's philosophy is clear:

To build a team that CONSISTENTLY COMPETES for CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Simply put, their philosophy doesn't include "rebuilding periods," "firesales," or "renting players to go for it in one year."

Hence, the foundation of this team is built on THE DRAFT. It is an obvious GIVEN that the Patriots won't be able to retain through OVERPAYING. They get what they can by their usually OVERACHIEVING draft picks, then aren't afraid to say goodbye if the price isn't right to keep them around.

That's why compensatory pick system helps the Patriots so much. If they draft player X in round 7, but that player leaving through free agency garners a 3rd or 4th round comp. pick, there's your investment payoff. It's a continuous cycle. Hence, the Pats are also going to have an excess of picks to either use to build a roster, or trade away to plug holes in August. That's their style of shopping the free agent market.

Compare that to the Redskins' style. The Redskins' ONLY pick on Day 1 of the 2006 Draft was in the 2nd round - McIntosh. In contrast, the Pats had FOUR Day 1 picks. Meanwhile, while the Redskins traded away their picks and OVERPAID for players like Randle El, the Pats were staying prudent.

And we all know which team has reaped the rewards of its system lately.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

Harrison and Colvin. We traded for Dillon.

Harrison was being let go by San Diego because they thought that he was chronically injured and had little more left. It's true that Denver also tried to sign him -- but hardly at "marquee player" money. That he has turned out to be great is, of course, another matter.

Apart from Colvin, they obviously tried for Derrick Mason but otherwise they have tried to "bottom feed" -- with mixed results.

 

[HAMMERMILL]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

Harrison was being let go by San Diego because they thought that he was chronically injured and had little more left. It's true that Denver also tried to sign him -- but hardly at "marquee player" money. That he has turned out to be great is, of course, another matter.

Apart from Colvin, they obviously tried for Derrick Mason but otherwise they have tried to "bottom feed" -- with mixed results.

3 SB'S in 4 years is hardly Mixed results

 

[fgssand]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

What is it about this team, it's ownership & front office that has caused so many to say so much, most of it negative and factually wrong so often?

I have never seen a team that has had (and in my opinion will continue to have) so much success be trashed by so many.

What is going on here and what is behind it all??

 

[Mike the Brit]

Re: Bill Simmons Views on His Pats....

3 SB'S in 4 years is hardly Mixed results

I didn't say that the team overall has had mixed results, but it's undeniable that the free agents that the team has brought in in the last few years have been mixed -- Monty Beisel, Chad Brown, Duane Starks, Eric Warfield anyone?