Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more than Connolly

[jmt57]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

IS it a given that Mankins can walk, if he does his 6 weeks and we don't Franchise him??

I was under the impression that that depends on the structure of the new CBA...

I'm also thinking that I remember reading that it is very doubtfull whether that would go in his favor.

Am I wrong? I'm very ignorant on these matters, and I'm hoping y'all'll enlighten me?

In 2010 a player needed six accrued seasons to become an unrestricted free agent, rather then the four seasons in previous years. If the two sides do not agree to a new CBA (and there is no lockout or strike), in 2011 it will be five seasons that are needed to become an unrestricted free agent.

Personally I doubt the union would agree to an increase in the number of years required to become an UFA in the next CBA. If I am wrong and they give in as part of the bargaining process I'm of the opinion it would go to five years; I just can't envision a scenario where they would agree to six years on a permanent basis.

Mankins already has five accrued seasons so gaining another accrued season is of little to no benefit for him. Personally, I disagree with Mortensen's report/opinion - largely because he is basing it on the premise that Mankins will do so because he wants or needs another accrued season. I just don't follow that logic.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

I don't want Mankins back. I would want them to use him in a trade at some point or use the cap room elsewhere. Even if he does come back this year I bet he plays rusty and doesn't really make any noticing impact.

 

[jmt57]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

I think one thing that is overlooked in a discussion such as this one is the effect on the depth of the unit. Beside the difference in talent between Mankins and Connolly, the team also is now without Connolly as a backup. So if or when Neal and Koppen miss some time, now it is Wendell or Ojinnaka coming in to play rather than Connolly.

The net effect of no Mankins is not just the difference between Mankins and Connolly; it is the difference between those two, plus the difference between Connolly and Wendell or Ojinnaka.


Same thing is going on at CB. The loss of Leigh Bodden is not limited to the talent difference between Bodden and McCourty; it is Bodden minus McCourty, plus McCourty minus Butler, plus Butler minus Wilhite, plus Wilhite minus Arrington. Or, to look at it another way, the net difference in production between Bodden and Arrington.

 

[The_Riddler]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

Not a chance, give me Connolly, the guy has stepped up big time.

 

[RayClay]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

Not sure I understand. They can't cut him because he isn't under contract. If he does sign his tender and they cut him, they won't get a compensatory pick.

It's been covered, I misstated.

This is the strangest kind of Limbo where we he can't leave, but we can't really get rid of him either.

The idiot should have just signed the lucrative contract. He's ruining his career and annoying the hell put of me.

The line is playing very well together, if you ask me. Left guard isn't exactly the type of position where you force yourself back in when a unit is performing well. Are we going to pay him to grumble on the bench and take aup a roster spot for six games?

 

[spacecrime]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

I think one thing that is overlooked in a discussion such as this one is the effect on the depth of the unit. Beside the difference in talent between Mankins and Connolly, the team also is now without Connolly as a backup. So if or when Neal and Koppen miss some time, now it is Wendell or Ojinnaka coming in to play rather than Connolly.

The net effect of no Mankins is not just the difference between Mankins and Connolly; it is the difference between those two, plus the difference between Connolly and Wendell or Ojinnaka.

I see your point, but it still isn't worth $6.5 million dollars to have Connolly as a backup instead of Ojinaka.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

In 2010 a player needed six accrued seasons to become an unrestricted free agent, rather then the four seasons in previous years. If the two sides do not agree to a new CBA (and there is no lockout or strike), in 2011 it will be five seasons that are needed to become an unrestricted free agent.

Personally I doubt the union would agree to an increase in the number of years required to become an UFA in the next CBA. If I am wrong and they give in as part of the bargaining process I'm of the opinion it would go to five years; I just can't envision a scenario where they would agree to six years on a permanent basis.

Mankins already has five accrued seasons so gaining another accrued season is of little to no benefit for him. Personally, I disagree with Mortensen's report/opinion - largely because he is basing it on the premise that Mankins will do so because he wants or needs another accrued season. I just don't follow that logic.

Yes, of course!!

Perfect answer, Bro. Thanks for getting me up to speed!!

And, of course: Very sound reasoning on why Mortensen's probably spewing hot air, once again.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5 mill more then Connelly

Thanks for this. I now know that you're opinion on line play is worthless.

You can put me on that list of worthless opinions regarding the offensive line's play. I know it seems incredibly outlandish to suggest Connolly has played better than your determination of 'he has not played well'......

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

* Without benefit of the playbook knowledge - what plays can they run with Mankins that they aren't running now?

* Fans are sometimes too quick to anoint the new guy a success.

* I always say give it some time: See if the new guy can compensate for the other team's film study as they attack his flaws.

* Mankins has had everything thrown at him and he remained at the top of the OL pecking order in the league.

* It's hard to say we're better off without him until we spend his money elsewhere and see what we get for it.

Ahhh...The Refreshing Wisdom of Icy Patriot.

There've been several excellent posts in this thread, but this is by far my favorite.

I like Connolly very much, but like the man says: Let's give him a few months to see how he reacts, after teams have a chance to study him and focus on his flaws: Everybody's got'm: The true measure of a player is how he adapts to having them attacked.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

If they are serious about more balanced approach to offense, Mankins is worth every penny. Pats are good at picking up blitz, its one on one match up they struggle against.

* And Connolly has done decent job so far but he is in no way even close to Mankins when it comes to run blocking or individual pass blocking ability.

* Also, I feel Mankins is even more needed as defense clearly needs offense to chew up the clock with runs.

* I know it sounds dumb and really obvious but less we see Pats D on the field, better it is for the team and for my heart rate.

Actually, it sounds like a refreshing infusion of Common Sense: Championships Are Won in The Trenches.

Put another way, though not nearly as artfully: Championships are Won With Ball Control Offense + Tenacious D.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

If you are talking about the O line, however, do not for a second underestimate the improvement that Vollmer is responsible for.

Damned right: One point I've been harping on at length ~ mercifully for y'all: mostly on FF ~ is the SEISMIC impact that Sebastian the Savage has had on this team, over the last year.

* The Patriots won 3 Super Bowls with Smurfs and Slugs ~ Antoine Smith ~ because they Controlled the Ball + Played Tenacious D.

* The D is nearly completely reloaded ~ and with VAST potential!! ~ though it needs one more year of Development and 3 more critical pieces, though 2 of them may already be in house.

* The O Line is no worse than that of The First Dynasty...But the strategic edge that Weiss the Great afforded us has been adjusted to be the rest of the NFL, so we need a new means of Ball Control.

And Randy Moss is not the answer to that.

Beasts like Sebastian the BloodThirsty...ARE.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

If anybody knew Connelly was going to play this well, they are smarter than I am.

* How good is Mankins going to be if he comes back? No mini camps. No training camp. No practices period. No games. He'll be of less value than he already is.

* If I were Mankins I'd either fire my agent, or get a brain transplant.

VERY Nicely put!!

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5 mill more then Connelly

What thread would that be? I'd like to go see what you said (and when). I read every thread here, and I can only recall generalities from you.

Admittedly, you've been remarkably consistent and your opinion seems to be impressively impervious to anything Connolly might have more recently done.

Your assertion remains generic, and particularly questionably so. It's the nature of the numerology of interior line play that guards (and centers) are always giving and getting help. This year at least, Connolly has more than held his own in that department

If you actually study the games -- which I very much doubt -- you'd quickly observe that it is Dan Koppen who is the weak link on the line this year. By far.

For example, Koppen lost the NT on the sack yesterday (to Neal's side BTW, and to be fair to Koppen, it was a delayed sack).

Connolly had a number of notably great plays yesterday. He's actually a pretty damn fine pulling guard, and managed a couple of nice reach seals yesterday, which are quite difficult blocks. Mankins has more explosion and strength and is a better drive blocker, but Connolly is actually at least as fast and agile, and is doing an excellent job at 2nd level blocks.

This is not to say I wouldn't welcome Mankins back, economics et cetera aside.

Connolly is certainly not (yet) threatening to be an all-Pro. But he is playing quite well; a lot better than I suspect Kaczur would be playing at guard were he not injured. He's a better guard than Koppen is a center. And as Belichick always says, you need to look at the trajectory of players, particularly young players from small schools. Connolly is still improving.

If I had to guess what the basis for your vendettas vs Connolly and Gerard Warren, I'd suspect it something to do with issues you have with the front office. Both Mankins and Seymour are gone because of aggressive and questionable front office decisions. I question those decisions myself. But there's no karmic force that acts to right perceived wrongs. Connolly and Warren are who they are, good football players, both of whom are proving to be decent starters, to many peoples' surprise, and apparently to some's dismay.

Absolutely MAGNIFICENT.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5 mill more then Connelly

What thread would that be? I'd like to go see what you said (and when). I read every thread here, and I can only recall generalities from you. Admittedly, you've been remarkably consistent and your opinion seems to be impressively impervious to anything Connolly might have more recently done.

You can put me on that list of worthless opinions regarding the offensive line's play. I know it seems incredibly outlandish to suggest Connolly has played better than your determination of 'he has not played well'......

Well, let's just look at what Rodak had to say, although he characterized the overall effort as solid:

On his first run, Green-Ellis avoided Bills LB/S Bryan Scott, who was blocked (obviously meant to be unblocked given the rest of the sentence) after LG Dan Connolly was late to pull off his double-team on a zone blocking assignment. Green-Ellis then barreled over safety Donte Whitner for a first down.

New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

LG Dan Connolly had a few negative plays in the game, despite an overall solid performance filling for Logan Mankins the first three weeks of the season. On the second play of the fourth quarter, RB Sammy Morris was stopped when LT Matt Light pulled off a combo block with Connolly in order to get to the nearest linebacker. Connolly lost his leverage on NT Kyle Williams, who tackled Morris on a play that otherwise featured sound blocking. A few plays later, Williams was able to break into the backfield on the snap after Connolly and center Dan Koppen both released him in an apparent miscommunication; the Morris run still went for 9 yards as Williams was unable to chase down the play from behind.

Picked-up pieces from 4th quarter review - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Here's what I'd noted in that earlier thread, giving examples that you could find just by going to NFL.com:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/667851-we-did-not-miss-mankins-today.html#post2235413

To me, Connolly's not playing well, and he's not playing terribly, but his play level is decidedly lower than Mankins', and that's causing some problems for the team. Now, you can characterize it in whatever manner you wish, be it the same or different. It doesn't really matter to me, since I'm not getting a commission from either player.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

Mankins? We don't need no stinkin' Mankins!

Nice!!

101010

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5 mill more then Connelly

Connolly hasn't played well.

Well, let's just look at what Rodak had to say, although he characterized the overall effort as solid:



New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston



Picked-up pieces from 4th quarter review - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Here's what I'd noted in that earlier thread, giving examples that you could find just by going to NFL.com:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/667851-we-did-not-miss-mankins-today.html#post2235413

To me, Connolly's not playing well, and he's not playing terribly, but his play level is decidedly lower than Mankins', and that's causing some problems for the team. Now, you can characterize it in whatever manner you wish, be it the same or different. It doesn't really matter to me, since I'm not getting a commission from either player.

How about you start offering some consistency in your position for a change. If he's not playing well and he's not playing terribly then he's performing to your expectation.

Connolly is playing better than a lot of people assumed his level of performance would be. He's not Logan Mankins and he's not the douche the Jets have replaced Faneca with either.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

Humble apologies for my repeated pernicious presence, gents.

But there are a LOT of great posts on this Thread.

* I think one thing that is overlooked in a discussion such as this one is the effect on the depth of the unit. Beside the difference in talent between Mankins and Connolly, the team also is now without Connolly as a backup. So if or when Neal and Koppen miss some time, now it is Wendell or Ojinnaka coming in to play rather than Connolly.

* The net effect of no Mankins is not just the difference between Mankins and Connolly; it is the difference between those two, plus the difference between Connolly and Wendell or Ojinnaka.


Same thing is going on at CB. The loss of Leigh Bodden is not limited to the talent difference between Bodden and McCourty; it is Bodden minus McCourty, plus McCourty minus Butler, plus Butler minus Wilhite, plus Wilhite minus Arrington. Or, to look at it another way, the net difference in production between Bodden and Arrington.

Money and other nonsense aside, I would absolutely LOVE to have Mankins back: If we could rock and roll in 2011 with him and Connolly at Guard, Vollmer, and young, Elite Talent Level players learning Right Tackle and Center, with Kaczur, at least, around as a 4 Gig Swing Reserve...we would be in an AWESOME position to Impose Our Will On The Enemy.

 

[Off The Grid]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

May I ask one more question, gents? Hopefully someone reading this knows...

What are the parameters, regarding RFA's?

With Mankins coming off his Rookie Contract, wouldn't we be able to make him an RFA? Or would a year long hold out blow that out?

Needless to say, my question is in the context of the old CBA, though any speculation regarding the new CBA is certainly welcome!!

Great news: I'm shutting my pie hole on this subject...For a few minutes, anyway!!

 

[Joker]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5M more then Connolly

To me, Connolly's not playing well, and he's not playing terribly, but his play level is decidedly lower than Mankins', and that's causing some problems for the team. Now, you can characterize it in whatever manner you wish, be it the same or different. It doesn't really matter to me, since I'm not getting a commission from either player.

After 3 games the Patriots are #1 in the NFL in offense.List these problems he's causing....

 

[Kasmir]

Re: Is Mankins play worth 6.5 mill more then Connelly

Well, let's just look at what Rodak had to say, although he characterized the overall effort as solid:



New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston



Picked-up pieces from 4th quarter review - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Here's what I'd noted in that earlier thread, giving examples that you could find just by going to NFL.com:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/667851-we-did-not-miss-mankins-today.html#post2235413

To me, Connolly's not playing well, and he's not playing terribly, but his play level is decidedly lower than Mankins', and that's causing some problems for the team. Now, you can characterize it in whatever manner you wish, be it the same or different. It doesn't really matter to me, since I'm not getting a commission from either player.

Well, we can see that Mike is reading this blog, anyway. I won't hold it against him that he appears to like you Mike Rodak , let me add to the praise you're deservedly started to receive. Your quarter by quarter breakdowns are now one of the first things I look for post game. Keep up the great work. I'm sure kudos is also appropriate to the original Mike for encouraging you.

DI, thanks for referring to something specific, although just pointing to participation in double teams on running plays is rather uncompelling. It's a rare running play where there isn't a double team at the point of attack. What I mostly notice about Connolly is how much they pull him, and he was doing so on most all of the big gainers against the Bills. They also put him at FB in the goal line packages, and you can be sure it's not because they prefer Wendell at guard.

I'm not arguing that he's as good as Mankins, but I will argue that he's a more than decent starter, and that he still has upside.