Is Keeping Hernandez and Gronkowski the Reason Welker is Without an Extension?

[Off The Grid]

But if you don't think that Aaron the Navigator is an extraordinary Weapon ~ one not easily reproduced, as you're implying ~ then you need to stand a bit closer to the Game Tape, my friend.

For my money, he's one of the four most dangerous Wing Backs in the world...and on the rise.

Who do you consider the other 2?

For me, Hernandez is just as important and irreplaceable as Gronk. In fact, it's a lot easier to find a 6'6" 265# TE with good ability than to find someone with Hernandez' unique combination of talents.

1 ~ The Elite 3 or 4 *Wing Backs* As I See It

Aaron Hernandez
JerMichael Finley
Vernon Davis

Jimmy Graham ~ Looks Like Flex End, Plays Like Wing Back!!

"Flex End"??

"Swing Back"??

I'll have to get back to you on that.

For me, Hernandez is just as important and irreplaceable as Gronk.

PREACH it!! :rocker:

2 ~ NOBODY'S been SCREAMING that Hernandez is Gronk's equal louder than ME, my friend.

I've been SHOUTING my prediction that he's about to have a MONSTER Break Out year longer'n ANYONE.

And I know we agree.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Maybe, if that's what it takes. And I think the Pats will count Hernandez's money as against the WRs in that scenario. It's not unrealistic:

- New Orleans signed Marques Colston to a 5 year $40M deal with $19M guaranteed. That's roughly what it will take to sign Hernandez. I'd take 22 year old Hernandez over 29 year old Colston with his gimpy knees any day. And Jimmy Graham will push Gronk for top dollar in the TE market if he continues his 2011 play.

- Dallas gave Jason Witten a 5 year $37M contract with $19M guaranteed in 2011. They gave Miles Austin a 7 year $57M contract in 2010 with $18M guaranteed.

Teams can realistically afford to pay 2 non-QB offensive skill players top dollar under the current cap. For example, Philly just gave DeSean Jackson a 5 year $47M contract and LeSean McCoy a 6 year $45M contract. Teams have to be selective about who they pay, or they quickly get into salary cap trouble. But it makes sense right now to view Gronk and Hernandez as the two cornerstone offensive playmakers.

Great analysis, the only problem I see is we would have to develop a young kid (cheap rookie contract) Or have WRs like Gaffney as the 1 and 2 since Gronknandez would be the two big skill position deals.

We are truly lucky in 2012 to have Welker, Lloyd, Gronkowski, Hernandez, and Gaffney on the same team. Those 5 should be costing us 40 million but with two rookie deals and a Lloyd super discount they count for what, 18 million? Unbelievable.

 

[Ivan]

Been saying this for a long time. Welker isn't part of the future plan. Reflects in his contract offers.

Boy, you sure nailed it too. He SUCKED last season. And they could have gotten a 2nd for him. What a dope Belichick is!

 

[mayoclinic]

1 ~ The Elite 3 or 4 *Wing Backs* As I See It

Aaron Hernandez
JerMichael Finley
Vernon Davis

Jimmy Graham ~ Looks Like Flex End, Plays Like Wing Back!!

"Flex End"??

"Swing Back"??

I'll have to get back to you on that.

PREACH it!! :rocker:

2 ~ NOBODY'S been SCREAMING that Hernandez is Gronk's equal louder than ME, my friend.

I've been SHOUTING my prediction that he's about to have a MONSTER Break Out year longer'n ANYONE.

And I know we agree.

I figured your list would look something like that. I'm not sure I'd cal Davis or Graham Wing Backs. Graham is unique, as you note. Davis has the speed and athleticism to play Wing Back, but I'm not sure that he's really used that way. For my money, Hernandez is used in more ways to create more mismatches than any "TE" in the game:

Aaron Hernandez: The New NFL Athlete | ProFootballFocus.com

 

[goheels22002]

That may be....but if the team has to prioritize, I stack 'em
1) Freak....Gronk...6'-7" target
2) Mismatch nightmare...Hernandez
3) Slot guy 5'-1" target getting same production that Troy Brown had

Same production as Troy Brown? Not even close.

Only Gale Sayers had more all-purpose yards in his first three NFL seasons than Wes Welker did with the Dolphins; Welker holds the Dolphins' all-time records for total kickoff returns, kickoff return yardage, total punt returns, and return touchdowns.

As a Patriot, Wes Welker led the league in receptions in 2007, 2009 and 2011. Welker holds the four highest single-season reception totals in Patriots history, as well as four of the top ten receiving yardage totals, including the franchise record. He also holds the franchise records for most receptions in a single game, most receiving yards in a single game, and longest reception.

Wes Welker, who had three consecutive 110-reception seasons, is the only receiver in NFL history with at least 110 receptions in any three seasons. He has also been selected to the Pro Bowl, the All-Pro Team, or both, in every season of his Patriots career.

Troy Brown is a hero of ours and a great New England Patriot, but his production was nowhere near what Wes Welker has delivered.

 

[Ring 6]

Because putting 11 men up to the box and man handling him isn't easy? On the contrary, it was almost too easy at times last year. He had some great moments, but there were weeks we were wondering where on earth the offense was, especially at the start of games.

Where was the elite-ness of Wes Welker and his game breaking ability there? When we went through those phases, and I was calling it out all through last season, I was looking for Welker and what he was doing and he was struggling to get off the line.

I really don't want to look like I hate or am trying to tarnish Welker here because I'm not, but he;s not a natural split end and I often wonder what our offense would be like without the vast weapons we have had the luxury of having if we had solely Welker...

In the history of the NFL there have been 18 single seasons by WRs with more receiving yards than Wes Welker had last year. That includes Jerry Rices best season and 2nd best, by one sole yard. It includes Calvin Johnson once, Andre Johnson twice, and no other active receiver ever in their career.
Given that your comments above appear exceedingly ignorant.

 

[Ring 6]

Who do you consider the other 2?

For me, Hernandez is just as important and irreplaceable as Gronk. In fact, it's a lot easier to find a 6'6" 265# TE with good ability than to find someone with Hernandez' unique combination of talents.

What????????
Its easier to replace the TE who had the best season a TE ever had, as well as the best 1st 2 seasons any TE has ever had, who is also a dominating blocker, that a guy who is small and quick for a TE and doesn't block so well?
Nah, its not even close.

 

[mayoclinic]

What????????
Its easier to replace the TE who had the best season a TE ever had, as well as the best 1st 2 seasons any TE has ever had, who is also a dominating blocker, that a guy who is small and quick for a TE and doesn't block so well?
Nah, its not even close.

I've said elsewhere - including in this thread - that keeping both should be the highest priority for the team going forward, and that Gronk and Hernandez are the core of the offense after Brady. I don't diminish what Gronk does in the least - he's on a path his first 2 years that will make him the greatest TE of all time if he can sustain it.

What I HAVE said is the following:

1. There are more "Gronk facsimiles" out there than there are "Hernandez facsimiles". While they aren't Gronk, and I am NOT advocating letting Gronk go in ANY way whatsoever, there are TE's coming out of college who provide the ability to stretch the field with an in-line TE who also has blocking skills. Again, NOT equal to Gronk in any way. But EVERY player has the potential of leaving, and the Pats will consider replacement options for everyone, so it's not ridiculous to do so for Gronk.

2. Hernandez is IMHO equally potent as an offensive weapon as is Gronk. He's different. He doesn't block as well and he's not as dominant in the red zone - no one is - but he does more things from an offensive skill standpoint. He creates mismatches all over the field. And he makes it harder for opposing teams to focus on Gronk all of the time. His skill set is darn near unique in the NFL, and I just don't see a lot of guys out there with similar versatility and the ability to create mismatches all over the field.

3. I would prioritize keeping both, and I would make keeping both guys a priority way above any other offensive skill player, including Wes Welker. It's not even close.

I DO disagree with those who argue that Gronk is unique but that Hernandez is far more easily replaceable. They're both unique, and incredible assets, especially at such a young age. Both should get better. And while the Pats will always have a limit on what they would spend for any player, those 2 guys will come as close to breaking the bank as anyone since Brady, IMHO.

 

[Joey007]

No disrespect to Welker, but don't we have this guy named Julian Edelman who whenever Welker gets hurt replaces him exceptionally well??

Yeah, the TE's should be a bigger priority.

 

[Ring 6]

I've said elsewhere - including in this thread - that keeping both should be the highest priority for the team going forward, and that Gronk and Hernandez are the core of the offense after Brady. I don't diminish what Gronk does in the least - he's on a path his first 2 years that will make him the greatest TE of all time if he can sustain it.

What I HAVE said is the following:

1. There are more "Gronk facsimiles" out there than there are "Hernandez facsimiles". While they aren't Gronk, and I am NOT advocating letting Gronk go in ANY way whatsoever, there are TE's coming out of college who provide the ability to stretch the field with an in-line TE who also has blocking skills. Again, NOT equal to Gronk in any way. But EVERY player has the potential of leaving, and the Pats will consider replacement options for everyone, so it's not ridiculous to do so for Gronk.

2. Hernandez is IMHO equally potent as an offensive weapon as is Gronk. He's different. He doesn't block as well and he's not as dominant in the red zone - no one is - but he does more things from an offensive skill standpoint. He creates mismatches all over the field. And he makes it harder for opposing teams to focus on Gronk all of the time. His skill set is darn near unique in the NFL, and I just don't see a lot of guys out there with similar versatility and the ability to create mismatches all over the field.

3. I would prioritize keeping both, and I would make keeping both guys a priority way above any other offensive skill player, including Wes Welker. It's not even close.

I DO disagree with those who argue that Gronk is unique but that Hernandez is far more easily replaceable. They're both unique, and incredible assets, especially at such a young age. Both should get better. And while the Pats will always have a limit on what they would spend for any player, those 2 guys will come as close to breaking the bank as anyone since Brady, IMHO.

I don't understand your argument. You are saying Gronk is headed toward potentially being the best TE ever, yet he is more easily replacable because you can find a lot of guys who do the same thing not nearly as well?
Hernandez is as much a product of the system as anything else. He is what he is. a small, quick agile TE, who isn't really a TE. His skillset is not that unique. What is unique is an offense finding ways to use that skillset.
Oh, and there is no way in the world Hernandez is more valuable than Welker. You only have to watch games to see that. Age and wear and tear must be considered in planning for the future, but this offense runs through Welker and sets up opportunities for Hernandez.

 

[Ring 6]

No disrespect to Welker, but don't we have this guy named Julian Edelman who whenever Welker gets hurt replaces him exceptionally well??

Yeah, the TE's should be a bigger priority.

You are comparing one of the few most productive WRs in the NFL to a guy who makes his living on special teams and isn't an NFL caliber WR.
All white guys aren't the same.

 

[Marqui]

I don't understand your argument. You are saying Gronk is headed toward potentially being the best TE ever, yet he is more easily replacable because you can find a lot of guys who do the same thing not nearly as well?
Hernandez is as much a product of the system as anything else. He is what he is. a small, quick agile TE, who isn't really a TE. His skillset is not that unique. What is unique is an offense finding ways to use that skillset.
Oh, and there is no way in the world Hernandez is more valuable than Welker. You only have to watch games to see that. Age and wear and tear must be considered in planning for the future, but this offense runs through Welker and sets up opportunities for Hernandez.

Welker is way more a product of the system than Hernandez is.

 

[Off The Grid]

I've said elsewhere - including in this thread - that keeping both should be the highest priority for the team going forward, and that Gronk and Hernandez are the core of the offense after Brady. I don't diminish what Gronk does in the least - he's on a path his first 2 years that will make him the greatest TE of all time if he can sustain it.

What I HAVE said is the following:

1. There are more "Gronk facsimiles" out there than there are "Hernandez facsimiles". While they aren't Gronk, and I am NOT advocating letting Gronk go in ANY way whatsoever, there are TE's coming out of college who provide the ability to stretch the field with an in-line TE who also has blocking skills. Again, NOT equal to Gronk in any way. But EVERY player has the potential of leaving, and the Pats will consider replacement options for everyone, so it's not ridiculous to do so for Gronk.

2. Hernandez is IMHO equally potent as an offensive weapon as is Gronk. He's different. He doesn't block as well and he's not as dominant in the red zone - no one is - but he does more things from an offensive skill standpoint. He creates mismatches all over the field. And he makes it harder for opposing teams to focus on Gronk all of the time. His skill set is darn near unique in the NFL, and I just don't see a lot of guys out there with similar versatility and the ability to create mismatches all over the field.

3. I would prioritize keeping both, and I would make keeping both guys a priority way above any other offensive skill player, including Wes Welker. It's not even close.

I DO disagree with those who argue that Gronk is unique but that Hernandez is far more easily replaceable. They're both unique, and incredible assets, especially at such a young age. Both should get better. And while the Pats will always have a limit on what they would spend for any player, those 2 guys will come as close to breaking the bank as anyone since Brady, IMHO.

Wisdom.

And ~ one would think ~ impossible to misunderstand.

 

[Hok]

With two true outside receivers, two TEs, a RB, and a FB on the field, the Patriots offense can truly do anything.

Not really, they'd be flagged for 12 men in the huddle every play.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

What????????
Its easier to replace the TE who had the best season a TE ever had, as well as the best 1st 2 seasons any TE has ever had, who is also a dominating blocker, that a guy who is small and quick for a TE and doesn't block so well?
Nah, its not even close.

Both Gronk and AHern are great. However, together, the whole is even better than the two parts.

Getting to "the whole" without one means finding that unique talent to replace. Finding another AHern to compliment Gronk (who is the better player) would be more difficult.

 

[Off The Grid]

I'm not sure I'd cal Davis or Graham Wing Backs.

Graham is unique, as you note.

Davis has the speed and athleticism to play Wing Back, but I'm not sure that he's really used that way.

There's no question that our boy Aaron The Navigator is used in more different ways than just about anyone, but it would hardly be reasonable of me to use that as a Threshold.

That would be like saying: "These O Guards are often used as pulling Guards, therefore any O Guard who isn't routinely used as a pulling Guard isn't an O Guard."

 

[patfanken]

You are comparing one of the few most productive WRs in the NFL to a guy who makes his living on special teams and isn't an NFL caliber WR.
All white guys aren't the same.

How would you know if he's an NFL caliber WR or not. When he had the opportunity in his rookie year he put up the 2nd best rookie season of any WR in the BB era, even though he had limited opportunities and had never played the position before....at any level.

In the last 2 years, his lack of stats could be due more to a lack of opportunities than a lack of skill. He has played behind Wes Welker, who have rarely missed a snap. What snaps he has gotten in the regular offense are usually as a wide out and 4th or 5th option. The fact is that when Edelman has gotten the opportunity to get regular snaps at the slot receiver position, he has delivered very respectable numbers. Its just in the last 2 seasons, he hasn't had many opportunities.

I know you think highly of Brian Hoyer. What has he done the last 2 years to justify your respect for his talents where are HIS stats. BTW - this isn't a knock on Hoyer. I know the Pats think highly of him, and the one time he actually has had a chance to play, he did quite well. Why isn't Edelman given the same respect for what he did the only time he's gotten regular looks at his natural position

Andy you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and you may even be right, but, given his lack of opportunities, I'm wondering just what you are basing your opinion ON, when you say he's not an NFL caliber receiver

 

[Joker]

I'm wondering just what you are basing your opinion ON, when you say he's not an NFL caliber receiver

the answer is...obviously...he's been reading Ray Ray 19 at J.I. again....where Brady is "in the twilight!" and Sanchez is "ELITE!!!"...(and NOW Tebow is the "perfect fit!")

 

[Ring 6]

Welker is way more a product of the system than Hernandez is.

That is ridiculous.
How can the guy who had more receiving yards last year than any active active receiver not named Calvin (once) or Andre (twice) Johnson EVER produced in a season, be a product of the system?
The system is, in part, a product of Welker.

 

[Ring 6]

Both Gronk and AHern are great. However, together, the whole is even better than the two parts.

Getting to "the whole" without one means finding that unique talent to replace. Finding another AHern to compliment Gronk (who is the better player) would be more difficult.

How is it easier to replace the better player with the more unique LEVEL of skills?