Of course it was countered. By me. By asking how you find yourself qualified to speak for the feelings of the black community
.
So you're saying there is no intra-race bigotry in the black community. You countered it with that comment. I gave you links that showed it is an issue in the black community. Are you one of those people that thinks racism doesn't exist any longer?
How can you bet your life if during this conversation you went from them saying
Martin is not black to
Martin isn't black enough to
Incognito is more black, which is exactly what I just showed you in the quote.
It's the same exact thing. It essentializes what it means to be black. It's saying Martin isn't black enough. How is Incognito black? In what ways? Incognito is an Italian-American guy from Arizona (formerly NJ). This is exactly what I'm saying. He's no more black than Vanilla Ice. I'm entirely confident in saying that Martin is more of a black man than both Vanilla Ice and Richie Incognito and in fact, I would say that the opposing view is either bigoted or patently ridiculous.
You appear to have just admitted I am right, since I said he made the comment you have now changed it to.
You have been contesting the comment all along about Incognito being more black than Martin. Do you want me to quote you? I'll find the quotes. They are in this thread.
And beyond that, you actually think those quotes are proper? Kosher? It's OK to say Incognito is more of a black man than Martin?
Seriously you have to be kidding.
Calling someone ANYTHING because of their race is racist, it is also bigotry.
All racsim is bigotry. Bigotry based on race is racism.
Please find a dictionary.
Calling someone something BECAUSE of their race? You are dimwitted. I called them that for saying Martin isn't black enough!!!!! That's why I called them bigots. It wouldn't matter if they were martians or antelopes. Saying Martin isn't black enough is bigotry. Please get a brain.
I'm the strawman? You said I'm a racist for calling them bigots because they're black. And I'm the strawman? You invent imaginary arguments in your head. So let me say this again: do you think that they shouldn't be criticized for saying a man isn't black enough or not? And, if not, should I withhold criticism because they're black? Which, if you answer yes, means that a black person can't be criticized for being a bigot.
Again, you stated that you thought maybe the black players had something against the 'educated black man'. I find that to be a disgusting slight to Martins teammates.
I offered it as one possibility among many. I was trying to speculate on how/why they would think that Martin was anything other than black. You haven't offered anything. Is it his Stanford education>? His background? The way he talks? By the way, his high school coach seemed to think that this is the difference, he emphasized his education. I have no idea why, and I made that evident, and I offered possible reasons why they would think he's different from them. If the teammates that spoke to Salguero would clarify on why he's not black enough for them, I wouldn't need to speculate.
Thank God, I hope you read it so you can stop misunderstanding the definition. I hope you read bigotry to and realized the only difference is that it can ALSO be due to other characteristics than race.
Even when someone provides a link to you with definition, and quotes it, you won't recant. The definition requires feelings of superiority/inferiority according to race. Anyone who clicks on that definition will see it immediately or see it quoted in my post. A bigot doesn't need to express any feelings of superiority or inferiority of races. He simply needs to emphasize prejudices. That's the distinction. You can claim the definition isn't there, but everyone can see through your dissembling.
I didn't call the players racist, I called your perspective racist, because you are viewing them as black not as individual people who can form opinions, likes, dislikes, fear, hatred, respect, disrespect, and many other things based on who they are not solely on what race they belong to.
As soon as you say 'the black teammates should' your pov is racist.
The black teammates who spoke to Salguero is not generalizing or a stereotype. It's a closed set of people. Could be 2 or could be 10. I don't know. It is absolutely not 100% of the black players on the team. I can guarantee you that. And from my very first post on this issue, I referred to the black players who spoke to Salguero. Not your ****amamie twisting of that fact. Of course I am treating them as individuals who have every right to voice their idiotic and bigoted notions about Martin's lack of blackness.
Of course not. But your comments in this thread are motivated almost exclusively by the race of the players, and that is wrong.
The players who spoke to Salguero on this were black. If they were white, I would have called them racist, and not bigots. Salguaro is quoting black players. Obviously.
Nice, move to the personal attacks. Classy.
My god, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. As Hartline would say, get a thicker skin especially if you're meting it out. And, I do find you deranged here. I can hardly follow the very twisted arguments you're making. When I replay them back to you, you're like, "Of course not," but when you say them, it is exactly what you mean.
[/QUOTE] No you have not.
You have said "not black' and 'less black'. You need to read back and review your own comments. Otherwise you are just lying now. [/QUOTE]
I have read back. I used them interchangeably. Early on I said Salguero said that they told him Incognito was more black than martin. Then I said not black or black enough. And for several pages I've said Martin was said t be more black. Why are the three interchangeable? Because Incognito is a white man. Martin is a black man. To say Incognito is more of a black man is to say Martin is not black enough or not black at all! Same thing.
I'll ask this again: when they say Incognito is blacker than Martin, you really don't find that offensive?
No you are castigating the other players for saying so.
In other words the 'right' way is that they all accept each other as black and the same.
Jonathan Martin is black. If others want to say he's not, they are absolute idiots. Being black is more than some limited small idea about individuals. There are many different kinds of blacks. If these people want to exclude him, they should do so based on his personality, his poor play, his unfriendliness, whatever, but not by saying he less black than they are.
I know that is what you are saying, that is my point.
By saying that and saying it is wrong, you are implying that all black people should be one homegeneous group and if you are black you are the same.
And how dare any black person tell another one you are not like him.
As I said your attempts to find Martins treatment to be bigotted rely on your treating the other people in the equation with bigotry yourself.
I'm saying the exact opposite.
You are saying either Martin should be considered 'one of the blacks' or 'the blacks' are racist.
Nope, never said that. I countered you on this countless times already. I never said they are racist.
I'm saying your view is racist because 'the blacks' have no obligation to treat Martin in any way because of his race.
No one has any obligation to anyone else other than not trampling on their civil rights. Otherwise, there are no obligations. There are courtesies and other social expectations, but no obligations. This is why the AAU defends the KKK when they parade through town.
Stating that it is wrong for them to feel Incognito is more like them than Martin is an overtly racist opinion. And I will explain because you seem to not get it.
The only way to form that opinion is to start from the viewpoint that Incongito and Martin are different because they are a different race, and therefore should be treated differently.
I never said anything about how they should treat Martin. in fact, I've said the opposite. I said I don't care. This is all about them saying that Martin is less of a black man than Incognito. It's what they said that is offensive. Maybe they acted on their beliefs, perhaps. They acted on their belief that Martin was less of a black man than Incognito.
I'm not claiming to know, which is why I am not arguing about what it means. You are commenting on it as if you understand its exact meaning, and I am commenting that it means next to nothing to me.
Yes, you are claiming to know. I was the one speculating. You were the one claiming to know.
Here is what you wrote:
And to put the cherry on top, you do not even know what is meant by 'not black enough'.
So, you know what is meant by "not black enough." This is what you claimed. So, Andy, tell us what is meant by that. Go on.
