Incognito suspended indefinitely by Dolphins

[Deus Irae]

I'm not reaching for anything. I gave you an accurate thumbnail of NFL player sociology. (I have spent time in NFL locker rooms, btw, as a working journalist and have observed the culture firsthand. Not that you'll give it any credence.)

Hazing/pranking, joking/needling and a relaxed interpersonal banter between friends is a very adult thing that takes place throughout the world, particularly in groups of men. It's not immature and it's not childish. It's what adults do.

Your apparent personal disdain for it does not make it childish.

 

[Ring 6]

These are Salgueros comments from here:
Miami Dolphins In Depth

Well, I've spoken to multiple people today about this and the explanation from all of them is that in the Dolphins locker room, Richie Incognito was considered a black guy. He was accepted by the black players. He was an honorary black man.
And Jonathan Martin, who is bi-racial, was not. Indeed, Martin was considered less black than Incognito.
"Richie is honarary," one player who left the Dolphins this offseason told me today. "I don't expect you to understand because you're not black. But being a black guy, being a brother is more than just about skin color. It's about how you carry yourself. How you play. Where you come from. What you've experienced. A lot of things."

Read more here: Miami Dolphins In Depth​

Note the comments are saying Martin was not accepted, not that he is not black.
There is nothing else on Salgueros page reflecting he said or meant anything different than that.

 

[Kontradiction]

Did you see how Hartline described Martin laughing? Did you feel anything was weird about his description?

Wide receiver Brian Hartline indicated Wednesday the voice mail needs more context.

"This is the same guy that was laughing about this voice mail at one point in time, first of all," Hartline said of Martin. "Second of all, I believe that if you look through the whole voice mail, there's some things said that you probably shouldn't say in general, friends or not friends. But I know for a fact, that I've said things to my friends that I kind of wish I've never said to, either."

Hartline was not happy with how the story has been portrayed in the media.

"They're attacking our coach. They're attacking the values of the rest of the people in this locker room, and they have the mike last," Hartline said. "I mean, we were at a point where we weren't told to say anything. We weren't going to talk. There was an investigation, plain and simple. You guys expected that.

I don't see anything that can be deemed "weird" from Hartline in there.

 

[upstater1]

I didn't ask a question, you made a sweeping statement.

A sweeping statement never once countered by anyone here. The statement is that there is intra-race bigotry in the black community. Do you dispute that?

The point is you are wrong whether he made it or not. While responding to why you are wrong if he made, I looked it up and found out he didnt.

Salguero said it on ESPN Sportscenter this morning. I am not able to watch it now but will try to find when I get home. The black players he spoke to said that Incognito is more of a black man than Martin. You can state unequivocally as you have that Salguero did not say that, but you are 100% wrong. I would bet my LIFE that he said that.

You have criticized the actions of all the black teammates and given your opinion of how they could be good blacks. That is racist.

It is racist to call someone a bigot. That is your position? You are one bizarre person. If someone is a bigot, they're a bigot.

You have in this thread. You are proclaiming how black people should act toward other black people, toward white people, toward mixed race people.

Nope. I can care less how they act toward Martin. If by act you mean questioning his blackness, then yes they should not question his blackness.

I guess this means you believe they have every right to question his blackness. Which makes you a racist.

You lumped all the black players that arent Martin and compared the entire group to 'the educated black man'. I bolded your exact words when I quoted them.

And what about the parts you didn't bold? What about the parts that said they may think he's not black enough because of the way he speaks, his middle-class background, and yes his education? I was wondering what made them think he wasn't black enough. I was only speculating. And yeah I think his education is one possibility, but by no means the only reason. Which is why I gave several possibilities in the first place.

Racism does not require a feeling of superiority. Many racists are racist due to jealously, as well as many due to simple ignorance.

Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

You didn't look it up, did you? The players who spoke to Salguero were not racist because in no instance did they bash Martin's race. And that's why they weren't racist.

When you criticize, demean, or give your opinion of what 'the black players' should do, you are acting in a racist manner.

LOL, let me get this straight: When [anyone] criticizes or gives his/her opinion of what [specific: players who Salguero is quoting] should do, [they] are acting in a racist manner.

You are fundamentally deranged in the head.

You criticized ALL of the black people on the Dolphins. You didn't crticize Maurice Pouncey for his actions, beliefs or opinions, you criticized all of the black Dolphins as if being black makes them all the same. Get it yet?

No, I did not. I criticized the black players who talked to Salguero for saying Martin wasn't black enough. Big difference. Nowhere did I say all blacks should be criticized. I said the players Salguero spoke to.

What if they ostracize Tannehill for not being black enough? Is that OK?
What if what they mean by 'black' is as one player actually clarified 'being a brother'.

I have been very clear that Salguero said they told him Incognito is more black than Martin.

You are implying that all black people are the same.
Some black people gravitate toward things typically associated with the hood stereotype, such as hip hop, 'gangsta', etc and others gravitate toward a more suburban lifestyle.
The 'hood' is not only almost exclusively black, but it also is a way of identifying with the struggles of grwoing up in strife or poverty.
The suburban lifestyle is one that is made up of a high percetange of white people.

LOL, I said the exact opposite. I said the description of being black according to these players is limited, and that Martin doesn't fit. I'm saying the exact opposite of what you're saying I wrote. I'm saying that the players are limiting the definition of black in a way that places Martin outside of what it means to be fully black. That is obvious to anyone who has read this. And it is obvious to you too but you are just pretending not to understand it.

And to put the cherry on top, you do not even know what is meant by 'not black enough'.

No, I don't. You tell me what it means. Since you know. If there's anything that would clear this whole conversation up, it's the answer to this question.

 

[Tunescribe]

Hazing/pranking, joking/needling and a relaxed interpersonal banter between friends is a very adult thing that takes place throughout the world, particularly in groups of men. It's not immature and it's not childish. It's what adults do.

I absolutely agree with that.

Your apparent personal disdain for it does not make it childish.

No, no, NO! I have no "personal disdain" for good-humored ball-busting. What occurs in NFL locker rooms -- and what we're seeing here -- is more complicated than that, through what you've already specified (money, race) and other social factors. Because of those things, the "hazing/pranking, joking/needling" assumes a significance in the players' closed society that "mainstream adults" relatively keep in check. It IS childish behavior to the level it's perpetuated among players, which most of the time is OK. In this case, what should've been addressed behind closed doors in Miami has entered the public arena where it has become grossly misinterpreted and misunderstood out of due context.

 

[upstater1]

I don't see anything that can be deemed "weird" from Hartline in there.

I thought it was weird how he rephrased it when a reporter asked him to clarify:

"One, if I'm not mistaken, this was the same guy who was laughing about the voicemail at one point in time," Hartline said.

Asked to clarify his point about Martin "laughing" at the voicemail, Hartline said that it was being "passed around" at one point in time as a joke.

"I just remember I thought [the voicemail] was being passed around as a joke," Hartline said.

If he witnessed it, I wonder how he could be mistaken. And using the passive voice to describe how the voicemail was passed it around. I mean, why not say Martin was passing it around? Then I'd say that Martin was laughing about it. Who was passing it around and laughing? Did he see Martin laughing? His quotes don't give me that confidence. Seems to me he heard this secondhand. CYA

 

[upstater1]

These are Salgueros comments from here:
Miami Dolphins In Depth

Read more here: Miami Dolphins In Depth​

Note the comments are saying Martin was not accepted, not that he is not black.
There is nothing else on Salgueros page reflecting he said or meant anything different than that.

Thanks for that quote. That's some pure bigoted stuff right there in that quote. This is what Salguero said this morning on ESPN too.

No wonder these guys had problems with the uppity guy.

 

[upstater1]

One more question: is it OK for someone to call opposing black players the N word in a game? Let's assume they aren't his friends. So he's not using the N word in a friendly way. We can also assume that whether or not he believes what he's saying, he's using the word for a tactical advantage in a game. But, even so, given that we know what happens to hockey or soccer players when they use that word against opposing players (it's outlawed in baseball and basketball), is it kosher to use that word for a strategic football advantage (all's fair in football and war)?

Hell, Belichick had a problem with a few feet jokes.

 

[Deus Irae]

I absolutely agree with that.

No, no, NO! I have no "personal disdain" for good-humored ball-busting. What occurs in NFL locker rooms -- and what we're seeing here -- is more complicated than that, through what you've already specified (money, race) and other social factors. Because of those things, the "hazing/pranking, joking/needling" assumes a significance in the players' closed society that "mainstream adults" mature beyond and have no cause for. It IS childish behavior to the level it's perpetuated among players, which most of the time is OK. In this case, what should've been addressed behind closed doors in Miami has entered the public arena where it has become grossly misinterpreted and misunderstood out of due context.

Thank you for this post and the clarifications within. I still wouldn't go along with 'childish' as an over-arching description, but there's no question that I've also seen these groups of hyper-masculine men engaging in extremes which we'd both agree were childish, and I now have a better understanding of what you were intending in your earlier posts.

 

[Kontradiction]

I thought it was weird how he rephrased it when a reporter asked him to clarify:



If he witnessed it, I wonder how he could be mistaken. And using the passive voice to describe how the voicemail was passed it around. I mean, why not say Martin was passing it around? Then I'd say that Martin was laughing about it. Who was passing it around and laughing? Did he see Martin laughing? His quotes don't give me that confidence. Seems to me he heard this secondhand. CYA

You're stretching a bit on this one. People witness things first-hand all the time and still use that phrase. As for it being passed around, that just further strengthens my point, if true. Why would a guy that has an extreme problem with the voicemail pass it around to other players as a joke?

 

[upstater1]

You're stretching a bit on this one. People witness things first-hand all the time and still use that phrase. As for it being passed around, that just further strengthens my point, if true. Why would a guy that has an extreme problem with the voicemail pass it around to other players as a joke?

If Martin did do that he's absolutely wrong. What I was saying is that when Hartline was pressed, then suddenly it went from Martin being the actor to a more passive "it was passed around as a joke." That's why I asked who passed it? I bet we're going to hear a lot more about this.

 

[Kontradiction]

If Martin did do that he's absolutely wrong. What I was saying is that when Hartline was pressed, then suddenly it went from Martin being the actor to a more passive "it was passed around as a joke." That's why I asked who passed it? I bet we're going to hear a lot more about this.

You may be right. Either way, I don't think this story is anywhere near being done with as a whole. I'm still looking forward to reading this detailed document Martin is preparing for the NFL. Hopefully it gets leaked quickly.

 

[Dr Pain]

The more I read and hear the more I think that Incognito should get a pass here. Things will change but I don't think it helps to make a fall guy.

 

[Ring 6]

A sweeping statement never once countered by anyone here. The statement is that there is intra-race bigotry in the black community. Do you dispute that?

Of course it was countered. By me. By asking how you find yourself qualified to speak for the feelings of the black community.

Salguero said it on ESPN Sportscenter this morning. I am not able to watch it now but will try to find when I get home. The black players he spoke to said that Incognito is more of a black man than Martin. You can state unequivocally as you have that Salguero did not say that, but you are 100% wrong. I would bet my LIFE that he said that.

How can you bet your life if during this conversation you went from them saying
Martin is not black to
Martin isn't black enough to
Incognito is more black, which is exactly what I just showed you in the quote.

Are you not admitting he didn't say not black or not black enough? That was your contention up until now you know.

You appear to have just admitted I am right, since I said he made the comment you have now changed it to.

It is racist to call someone a bigot. That is your position? You are one bizarre person. If someone is a bigot, they're a bigot.

Seriously you have to be kidding.
Calling someone ANYTHING because of their race is racist, it is also bigotry.
All racsim is bigotry. Bigotry based on race is racism.
Please find a dictionary.

Nope. I can care less how they act toward Martin. If by act you mean questioning his blackness, then yes they should not question his blackness.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth..

I guess this means you believe they have every right to question his blackness. Which makes you a racist.

Hello Strawman.

And what about the parts you didn't bold? What about the parts that said they may think he's not black enough because of the way he speaks, his middle-class background, and yes his education? I was wondering what made them think he wasn't black enough. I was only speculating. And yeah I think his education is one possibility, but by no means the only reason. Which is why I gave several possibilities in the first place.

Again, you stated that you thought maybe the black players had something against the 'educated black man'. I find that to be a disgusting slight to Martins teammates.

Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Thank God, I hope you read it so you can stop misunderstanding the definition. I hope you read bigotry to and realized the only difference is that it can ALSO be due to other characteristics than race.

You didn't look it up, did you? The players who spoke to Salguero were not racist because in no instance did they bash Martin's race. And that's why they weren't racist.

I didn't call the players racist, I called your perspective racist, because you are viewing them as black not as individual people who can form opinions, likes, dislikes, fear, hatred, respect, disrespect, and many other things based on who they are not solely on what race they belong to.
As soon as you say 'the black teammates should' your pov is racist.

LOL, let me get this straight: When [anyone] criticizes or gives his/her opinion of what [specific: players who Salguero is quoting] should do, [they] are acting in a racist manner.

Of course not. But your comments in this thread are motivated almost exclusively by the race of the players, and that is wrong.

You are fundamentally deranged in the head.

Nice, move to the personal attacks. Classy.

You criticized ALL of the black people on the Dolphins. You didn't crticize Maurice Pouncey for his actions, beliefs or opinions, you criticized all of the black Dolphins as if being black makes them all the same. Get it yet?

Not sure why you took my exact comments and made them yours.

I have been very clear that Salguero said they told him Incognito is more black than Martin.

No you have not.
You have said "not black' and 'less black'. You need to read back and review your own comments. Otherwise you are just lying now.

LOL, I said the exact opposite. I said the description of being black according to these players is limited, and that Martin doesn't fit.

No you are castigating the other players for saying so.
In other words the 'right' way is that they all accept each other as black and the same.

I'm saying the exact opposite of what you're saying I wrote. I'm saying that the players are limiting the definition of black in a way that places Martin outside of what it means to be fully black.

I know that is what you are saying, that is my point.
By saying that and saying it is wrong, you are implying that all black people should be one homegeneous group and if you are black you are the same.
And how dare any black person tell another one you are not like him.
As I said your attempts to find Martins treatment to be bigotted rely on your treating the other people in the equation with bigotry yourself.

That is obvious to anyone who has read this. And it is obvious to you too but you are just pretending not to understand it.

You are saying either Martin should be considered 'one of the blacks' or 'the blacks' are racist. I'm saying your view is racist because 'the blacks' have no obligation to treat Maertin in any way because of his race.
It is extremely racist to feel the other black players have an obligation to treat Martin differently than Incognito.
Stating that it is wrong for them to feel Incognito is more like them than Martin is an overtly racist opinion. And I will explain because you seem to not get it.
The only way to form that opinion is to start from the viewpoint that Incongito and Martin are different because they are a different race, and therefore should be treated differently. They should be treated the same regardless of color. They were and the black teammates like the white dude and didn't like the black one. There is nothing at all wrong with that.

No, I don't. You tell me what it means. Since you know. If there's anything that would clear this whole conversation up, it's the answer to this question.

I'm not claiming to know, which is why I am not arguing about what it means.
You are commenting on it as if you understand its exact meaning, and I am commenting that it means next to nothing to me.

 

[Gronkandez]

The more I read and hear the more I think that Incognito should get a pass here. Things will change but I don't think it helps to make a fall guy.

The more I read the more I think Martin is either a **** or has emotional issues. Just my opinion. Call the PC police.

 

[Ring 6]

Thanks for that quote. That's some pure bigoted stuff right there in that quote. This is what Salguero said this morning on ESPN too.

No wonder these guys had problems with the uppity guy.

Just note, that is NOT what you have said all day long was said by Salguero.
I do not find bigotry in that, but again, I'm not pretending to know what 'more black' is supposed to mean.

 

[Kontradiction]

The more I read the more I think Martin is either a **** or has emotional issues. Just my opinion. Call the PC police.

That's what I'm starting to lean toward more and more. Again, though, Martin is preparing a document for the NFL. That should be the last domino to fall in this. For all we know, something horrible could have happened that only he and Incognito were present for.

 

[Gronkandez]

Just note, that is NOT what you have said all day long was said by Salguero.
I do not find bigotry in that, but again, I'm not pretending to know what 'more black' is supposed to mean.

37 more posts until you hit 20,000. At your current posting rate you should hit that by 5:15. Of course most of your posts are personal squables instead of about football....

 

[Ring 6]

The more I read the more I think Martin is either a **** or has emotional issues. Just my opinion. Call the PC police.

It may not be that extreme, he just may be a guy who doesnt fit in with an NFL crowd of people.
That doesn't make him less of a person or an emotional wreck.

 

[Ring 6]

37 more posts until you hit 20,000. At your current posting rate you should hit that by 5:15. Of course most of your posts are personal squables instead of about football....

Not much football to talk about right now in a bye week, so why not exachange interesting thoughts about differing perspectives on a hot button topic?