Ebner now ahead of T. Wilson on the depth chart

[PatsFan2]

Somebody also explain to Bill that a guy who's not even projected to be drafted.... you can probably wait on.

Yeah you know like Tom Brady in the 6th.

 

[manxman2601]

Good to see people expecting Duron Harmon to be playing like a pro bowler before they admit they were wrong about his draft pick. When a 3rd round safety, starting for the first time in his rookie season, does his job properly and doesn't get exposed in any way, that means he played well. You shouldn't be ashamed to admit you were wrong.

 

[Brady6]

I think Ebner played really well as a hybrid S/LB

Maybe Ebner playing is more indicative of his improvements than Wilson’s shortcomings. Ebner does have a lot of physical talent and very limited experience as a football player so maybe he is starting to develop into something more than a Special Teams guy.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Good to see people expecting Duron Harmon to be playing like a pro bowler before they admit they were wrong about his draft pick. When a 3rd round safety, starting for the first time in his rookie season, does his job properly and doesn't get exposed in any way, that means he played well. You shouldn't be ashamed to admit you were wrong.

As someone who liked Duron Harmon and was satisfied with the pick, I think it is premature to draw conclusions.

Because from a fan's perspective, back end play takes a larger sample size than anywhere else to "evaluate". You usually don't know if a player is in position unless they're actually targeted. You don't know how well they time a hit or play the ball from seeing it once or twice, etc.

Lots of safeties and corners start out "on track to be good" and regress. Tavon looked good after two games, did he not? Guys like Tramon Williams and Carlos Rogers get paydays off of small sample sizes. Alternatively, some start out slow and accelerate. Think Tim Jennings or Darius Butler. IIRC Ike Taylor was a mess in the beginning.

Maybe Ebner playing is more indicative of his improvements than Wilson’s shortcomings. Ebner does have a lot of physical talent and very limited experience as a football player so maybe he is starting to develop into something more than a Special Teams guy.

I'd love to believe that. And yeah, he's one hell of an athlete. But until Ebner gives me a some shred of reason to, I will assume he is a special teams player only.

 

[Brady6]

And those same people would say the same thing about Harmon, who appears to have played quite well last night.

Big difference in my opinion in busting at #48 where Wilson was drafted and busting at #91 where Harmon was drafted. Harmon is playing at the level I would expect of a late third round draft pick, Wilson is currently an embarrassment to the second round of the 2012 NFL draft.

The biggest difference is outside of Cooper in the seventh round there are not a lot of picks that are playing better than Harmon who went after him, if you look at Wilson you have players like Kendall Reyes, Zack Brown, Peter Konz, Lavonte David, Casey Hayward, Ruben Randell, Dwayne Allen, Josh Robinson, Trumaine Johnson, Russell Wilson who went in the next 30 picks and so many other contributors even later in the draft.

 

[Ozymandias]

Both Harmon and Wilson were reach picks at the time they were drafted. That only applies to the actual draft pick itself. Meaning just because a player was a reach in the draft doesn't mean he's going to be crap on the field. Likewise, for "value" picks.

Wilson sucks, therefore he has justified his reach label with his garbage play on the field. A strict special teamer is not what you're looking for when you draft a DB in the second round. Harmon, while a reach pick, so far has played relatively decent on the field - so even though the pick itself was a bad one - the player hasn't been so far yet.

So, again, a guy can be a reach pick, but that doesn't mean he's going to be a bust automatically without ever stepping foot on the field. Your play speaks for itself, regardless of where you were drafted.

/birdcents

 

[Deus Irae]

Good to see people expecting Duron Harmon to be playing like a pro bowler before they admit they were wrong about his draft pick. When a 3rd round safety, starting for the first time in his rookie season, does his job properly and doesn't get exposed in any way, that means he played well. You shouldn't be ashamed to admit you were wrong.

Given that he's not proven anyone right or wrong about his draft pick at this early stage of his career, I'm not really sure what the point of your post is. Harmon made some definite mistakes out there, including one that helped the Panthers get their first TD. If you wish to believe that's playing "quite well" you are, of course, free to do so. Many people are likely to think that's not the case.

 

[Ring 6]

Can you expand on that? He had a good play in coverage on Ginn (I believe) in the game, but he didn't do anything to write home about other than that.

He must have covered people because they werent completing passes to him man/zone.

 

[jmt57]

While it is true that Tavon Wilson has not lived up to his draft status, let's not delude ourselves with the implication that he is the only NFL player drafted that highly to do so.


From the first round of that 2012 draft:

DB Dre Kirkpatrick, Bengals
He too can't crack the starting lineup, and in his NFL career has zero picks, two passes defensed, one fumble recovery, and 13 tackles (12 solo). By comparison, the maligned Wilson has four picks, six passes defensed, two fumble recoveries, and 43 tackles (30 solo).

WR A.J. Jenkins, Chiefs
If you want to know the definition of a draft bust, here you go: a first round pick being traded away in his rookie year. Jenkins is unable to get any playing time even on the offensively-challenged Chiefs; in his NFL career he has one reception for six yards.

RB David Wilson, Giants
Granted his biggest issue is injury-related, but that has never stopped others here from labeling a player as a bust. Even if he does recover, his fumbling problems will keep him in Tom Coughlin's doghouse and on the sideline.



From the second round of the 2012 draft:

WR Brian Quick, Rams
Quick has 11 receptions this year, which ranks him 8th on the St. Louis team this year. On the season he has had 16 or fewer yards receiving in a game seven times.

DE Andre Branch, Jaguars
Has struggled with Jacksonville; after a bad rookie season there were rumors the Jags were trying to trade him. Consider this: he can't even start on what may be the worst NFL team in the last fifty years.

RB Isiah Pead, Rams
Pead is number three on the depth chart, behind 5th and a 7th round round draft picks; he ranks 6th on the team this year with all of 21 yards rushing.

WR Ryan Broyles, Lions
Inactive for three games, totaling 8 receptions for 85 yards in six other games before going on IR.

OT Mike Adams, Steelers
You may recall from the Steeler fans that were here a few weeks ago, Adams was a huge liability and such a turnstyle that he lost his starting job on that bad offensive line.

QB Brock Osweiler, Broncos
While Osweiler has done nothing wrong, thus far this appears to be a wsted draft pick.

DE Vinny Curry, Eagles
Philly was actively trying to trade him this year, but not a single team wanted to touch him with a ten foot pole.

RB LaMichael James
Getting almost no work in SF, third on the depth chart. A whopping 37 yards rushing and 4 yards receiving this season.

 

[Deus Irae]

While it is true that Tavon Wilson has not lived up to his draft status, let's not delude ourselves with the implication that he is the only NFL player drafted that highly to do so.

But who's made any such implication? It seems to me that people have evaluated him based upon his own failings. Some may have offered other options that were available (Randle would have been a better 'need' pick, or they could have double dipped at LB, for example), but that's not the same thing.

 

[Brady6]

While it is true that Tavon Wilson has not lived up to his draft status, let's not delude ourselves with the implication that he is the only NFL player drafted that highly to do so.


From the first round of that 2012 draft:

DB Dre Kirkpatrick, Bengals
He too can't crack the starting lineup, and in his NFL career has zero picks, two passes defensed, one fumble recovery, and 13 tackles (12 solo). By comparison, the maligned Wilson has four picks, six passes defensed, two fumble recoveries, and 43 tackles (30 solo).

WR A.J. Jenkins, Chiefs
If you want to know the definition of a draft bust, here you go: a first round pick being traded away in his rookie year. Jenkins is unable to get any playing time even on the offensively-challenged Chiefs; in his NFL career he has one reception for six yards.

RB David Wilson, Giants
Granted his biggest issue is injury-related, but that has never stopped others here from labeling a player as a bust. Even if he does recover, his fumbling problems will keep him in Tom Coughlin's doghouse and on the sideline.



From the second round of the 2012 draft:

WR Brian Quick, Rams
Quick has 11 receptions this year, which ranks him 8th on the St. Louis team this year. On the season he has had 16 or fewer yards receiving in a game seven times.

DE Andre Branch, Jaguars
Has struggled with Jacksonville; after a bad rookie season there were rumors the Jags were trying to trade him. Consider this: he can't even start on what may be the worst NFL team in the last fifty years.

RB Isiah Pead, Rams
Pead is number three on the depth chart, behind 5th and a 7th round round draft picks; he ranks 6th on the team this year with all of 21 yards rushing.

WR Ryan Broyles, Lions
Inactive for three games, totaling 8 receptions for 85 yards in six other games before going on IR.

OT Mike Adams, Steelers
You may recall from the Steeler fans that were here a few weeks ago, Adams was a huge liability and such a turnstyle that he lost his starting job on that bad offensive line.

QB Brock Osweiler, Broncos
While Osweiler has done nothing wrong, thus far this appears to be a wsted draft pick.

DE Vinny Curry, Eagles
Philly was actively trying to trade him this year, but not a single team wanted to touch him with a ten foot pole.

RB LaMichael James
Getting almost no work in SF, third on the depth chart. A whopping 37 yards rushing and 4 yards receiving this season.

I get what you’re saying here JMT but it is always a cautionary tale when you turn to others failures to turn the spotlight from your own.

That said everyone makes from time to time, my OP was more about what happen to him, he struggled against the deep ball particularly when the QB was out of the pocket as a rookie and he also took some poor angles but overall he was not horrible as a rookie, he outplayed Pat Chung I just find it to be shocking that he is now last on our DB depth chart.

 

[Ring 6]

I get what you’re saying here JMT but it is always a cautionary tale when you turn to others failures to turn the spotlight from your own.

That said everyone makes from time to time, my OP was more about what happen to him, he struggled against the deep ball particularly when the QB was out of the pocket as a rookie and he also took some poor angles but overall he was not horrible as a rookie, he outplayed Pat Chung I just find it to be shocking that he is now last on our DB depth chart.

I think the point here, and JMT can correct me if I misunderstood him, is not that other players failing make Wilson better, but that the expectation that a 2nd round pick is supposed to succeed almost automatically is way off the mark.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I think the point here, and JMT can correct me if I misunderstood him, is not that other players failing make Wilson better, but that the expectation that a 2nd round pick is supposed to succeed almost automatically is way off the mark.

I believe it was patchick that showed that hitting on all four of your first four draft picks—in ANY draft—essentially never happens.

 

[State]

What we see is what we're going to get. A good STer drafted obscenely too early. In this case popular wisdom knew more than the Patriots.

We discussed this a lot in the draft forum. People would constantly bring up our taking LT Logan Mankins, whom many thought was a reach. But they didn't know what they were talking about.

Fresno State's coach Pat Hill (fired a year or so ago) is close to Belichick, and I think the two could talk candidly. Good program.

Illinois, notwithstanding the embarrassment of riches in sending guys to the NFL, has proverbially sucked. Their Ron Zook era featured very good recruiting and _poor_ coaching.

The pick by Belichick was made, in part, to thumb his nose at the process. He delighted in poking fun at the fact TW wasn't even picked to go to the Combine. I think it was an arrogant pick. His way of saying he's the smartest guy in the room.

I watched Illinois repeatedly. Another player who was of similar size and a little faster (4.4 versus 5.2)--and more productive in making INTs--was Terry Hawthorne, whom the Steelers drafted last year in the fifth. They both had the dreads and were only one number apart. Very similar players.

Hawthorne has been cut by the Steelers and is now a free agent. He can cover better than Wilson IMHO.

What hurts is the opportunity cost. We could have had Nashua, NH, native at a position we needed a rejuvenation of youth, DT. Kendell Reyes should have been a Patriot.

This pick and Ras I-Dowling (Maryland WR who happens to play for the Ravens was there for our taking) have hurt this team. Dowling at least could have conceivably worked as his physical skills were never in doubt. But Wilson? It was a joke pick.

Belichick has quite the sense of humor.

 

[ausbacker]

Given that he's not proven anyone right or wrong about his draft pick at this early stage of his career, I'm not really sure what the point of your post is. Harmon made some definite mistakes out there, including one that helped the Panthers get their first TD. If you wish to believe that's playing "quite well" you are, of course, free to do so. Many people are likely to think that's not the case.

Make sure you apply that rationale to Jamie Collins before you profess it as one of the worst picks of the BB era in other threads again. I said it before and I'll say it again. Once they've played out their rookie contracts, then we make broad sweeping comments about the players.

 

[Brady6]

I think the point here, and JMT can correct me if I misunderstood him, is not that other players failing make Wilson better, but that the expectation that a 2nd round pick is supposed to succeed almost automatically is way off the mark.

OK I can understand that and even agree with it I guess the hope is that the second round pick doesn’t fall behind the sixth round pick which was the case here. For me though it is more of an enigma of what the hell happen with Tavon because I did not think he was that poor as a rookie so I thought there was something to build on, many expected him to displace Gregory as the starter and instead he is currently 10th on our DB depth chart.

1. McCourty
2. Talib
3. Dennard
4. Arrington
5. Gregory
6. Harmon
7. Ryan
8. Cole
9. Ebner
10. Wilson

 

[Brady6]

I believe it was patchick that showed that hitting on all four of your first four draft picks—in ANY draft—essentially never happens.

I for one don’t have an overwhelming issue with the fact that he did not hit on the pick, I just wish it was not as much of a miss as it currently appears to be. Essentially when you look at the 2012 draft we used picks 27, 31, 48, 62, 93 and 126 on Chandler Jones, Donta Hightower, Tavon Wilson and Jake Bequette. Chandler is an absolute stud and Hightower is a solid starting caliber 2 down linebacker at this juncture of his career.

 

[Deus Irae]

Make sure you apply that rationale to Jamie Collins before you profess it as one of the worst picks of the BB era in other threads again. I said it before and I'll say it again. Once they've played out their rookie contracts, then we make broad sweeping comments about the players.

As I've explained on numerous occasions, you're confusing my opinion of the use of the pick with my opinion of the player. Kindly either figure out the difference or stop commenting on Collins in response to my posts.

 

[Brady6]

Yeah you know like Tom Brady in the 6th.

You can only hang your hat on something for so long that pick was going on 14 drafts ago. I think Belichick drafts well overall, he probably has hit on more late round draft choices than any coach in the NFL and he is in my opinion the best at identifying UDFA of any GM, but he certainly has had his fair share of misses especially in rounds 2-4 over the years.

Overall I don’t think it’s about the drafting in the situation of Tavon Wilson, I see more issue with the development of him, even if he was taken premature he had 42 tackles, 4 interceptions and 2 fumble recoveries as a rookie. For me I am questioning WTF happen during the offseason more than I am questioning his being selected in the second round.

 

[Kdo5]

I think TW was an obscene reach but if you think about it we got Dennard out of the 7th round. Let's just try to think that Dennard was our second rounder and TW was our seventh. I think it makes that pick less of a disaster.