Defense fails again!

[wdkantro2]

Here's my problem with the defense (it's actually a problem with the coaching).
In the third quarter, they went to the pressure/speed package that features Guyton and Jarvis Green replacing Wilfork/Seymour/Wright (it seems to vary) and Bruschi. From the third quarter until the Jets' drive when the game was tied, here is what the Jets' offensive posessions looked like:
3 plays for -13 yards, punt
6 plays for 19 yards, punt
3 plays for 9 yards, punt
5 plays for 18 yards, fumble
Then was the long touchdown drive. So that package allowed 17 plays for 27 yards and forced a turnover. In the first half, with the starting, base defense that featured guys like Guyton and Green on the bench with Bruschi in the game, they gave up 28 plays for 212 yards and 2 TDs and an FG (not including the 1 play kneel down at the end of the half).
Then, with the game tied, the Pats decided to go back to that base defense that was oh-so effective in the first half. What happens? A 14 play, 67 yard touchdown drive that took up 7:06.
So it looks like that pressure pack is the way to go, right? Wrong. They came back on the field with it in overtime, and the Jets literally produced an identical drive of 14 plays, 64 yards, 7:50 and a game winning field goal.
Those two are actually pretty similar to the first half drives too, which were 10/62/5:34/TD, 10/60/4:25/FG. The other first half drive was because of the big play to Cotchery, so it looked different.
Long story short: the Pats found a package that worked very well against this team and inexplicably went away from it with the game on the line...TWICE.
That's what I'm pissed about.

 

[DaBruinz]

Thank you for providing the Self Portrait.

This is worse than SD. How can you even say that this isn't as bad? The division was on the line tonight. We weren't even close ever in the SD game.

So, in your eyes, the other 2 divisional games that the Pats have to play and the other 2 that the Jets have to play mean nothing. OH, btw, SD was worse than tonight and the Miami game was worse than SD.

I watched the possession twice, and they played too loosely in addition to blowing coverage. They were giving them 5-8 yards of cushion. The good plays we made were on runs and when our line punched through before Favre could set. Rewatch it and you will see that I am right.

Wrong. The CBs played very good coverage and weren't playing loose. Starting off with a 5-8 yard cushion and being right on top of them when Favre goes through his reads and then NOT throwing to the WRs says that the CBs were doing a helluva job. I don't need to re-watch it because you are wrong.

 

[DaBruinz]

Dude, get a grip. It's just my opinion. The Pats had the Jets right where they wanted them with a 3rd and 15, inside the 15 yard line and the momentum in their favor only to allow a damn TE to streak down the middle of the field giving up the first down. After how hard they fought to get back in the game, how could you not be dissapointed?

Yes, and all of us are allowed to have OUR opinions on what you post as well. This is the part of that great 1st Amendment and the Right to Freedom of speech that people like yourself don't understand. While you are entitled to you opinions, you are also entitled to the reactions that you voicing your opinions brings.

Am I disappointed? Yep. Because the Patriots had to play against the Jets AND the Refs. But the Patriots are without issues. And many of those issues come from the injuries they have sustain that have forced players to be brought along faster than they were. Those mistakes are going to happen. Pierre Woods had a fantastic game tonight in his first start other than that blown coverage. Vrabel also had a great game, but he ALSO blew the coverage on the next set of downs where Favre again completed to Keller.

So, both young AND old were making mistakes. It happens.

 

[DaBruinz]

I'm not a jets fan....why would I ***** about the putrid failure of the d if I was a jets fan. You are a massive homer, so most people dont listen to you anyway

You are a dumb ass Jets fan and you pretend to complain because that is what trolls like yourself do.

Many more people listen to me than to your sorry arse.

 

[DaBruinz]

The offense never had the ball in OT. I'd say the defense F'd up. Would you disagree?

I disagree with everyone saying our defense is bad. They played great in the third quarter. I put more of the blame on Rees than on our defensive roster.

I don't see you complaining about the fact that the offense let the defense down by not getting even 1 first down on 2 different series in the 4th quarter.

Had the offense gotten its act together then instead of waiting until the last drive, the game probably would have been over in the Pats favor without OT.

 

[DaBruinz]

14 of the Jets points were from the refs and a kickoff return. Enough said.

Just a slight correction. 14 of the Jets points came from the refs and 7 came from the kick off return.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ok, when the game was tied, the defense allowed the Jets to walk down field and score a touchdown. Then I will give the defense credit for giving the Pats one more chance to score with a minute left, which the Pats did. But as you and I know, defense wins championships and in overtime the Pats needed their defense to give their offense a chance to win the game. But the defense allowed the Jets to walk down field and win the game. So please tell me how my arguement lacks logic?

The defense actually had the Jets at 3rd and 6 from the NE 7. The Pats made the stop by breaking up the throw. Then the refs called the bogus penalty on Vrabel, giving the Jets new life. See, Vrabel has every right to position and he was NOT holding Cotchery. Without that penalty, The Jets are held to a FG and the Pats are able to march down and win the game. That's how your "argument" lacks logic.

 

[dhamz]

The defense actually had the Jets at 3rd and 6 from the NE 7. The Pats made the stop by breaking up the throw. Then the refs called the bogus penalty on Vrabel, giving the Jets new life. See, Vrabel has every right to position and he was NOT holding Cotchery. Without that penalty, The Jets are held to a FG and the Pats are able to march down and win the game. That's how your "argument" lacks logic.

The holding call was meaningless to the outcome. It was a horrible call. It just had no impact on the result of the game.

Without the call, the Jets get a FG there. And the Pats then kick one on 4th down with 8 seconds left and the game is still tied and still goes to OT.

 

[DaBruinz]

We were discussing why we lost in OT. You bring up an irrelevant point, the coin flip and rule of sudden death. You admitted our defense screwed up, yet are rabidly telling everyone who analyses why we screwed up illogical. Hmm. That makes a lot of sense.

So, lets ignore that the Refs GAVE the Jets new life on the set of downs when they made the bogus call against Vrabel on the 3rd and 6 when the Pats actually STOPPED the Jets.

Logically, since the offense never even took the field in OT, and we lost, there are logically only two other groups on our roster that could have screwed up in OT. Eiher a) Special teams, or b) The defense. Special teams did great. We got a touchback. Logically, that leaves b), by disjunctive syllogism. If you care to address the logic of this argument, feel free.

You are making yourself look dumber and dumber with every post. Stop.

You are the one making yourself look dumber with each post. Not Deus Irae. You are the one IGNORING what happened in regulation. And you are ignoring that it had a direct affect on OT in that there wouldn't have been OT.

 

[DaBruinz]

You didn't address my argument. I spelled it out for you, as your brain seems to have trouble comprehending things.

If you want to blame the rules, go be an Indy fan or a Raiders fan. We are Patriots fans. Do you think Belichick will blame the rules for their loss? Do you think he would be that petty?

You're argument is flimsy at best. You want to say that the entire loss was the result of poor play by the defense. And, in doing so, you want to ignore all the things that happened during the entirety of the game that affected the outcome. There were numerous things. The bogus reception by Coles. The phantom Unnecessary Roughness call on Woods. The phantom call on Vrabel. The lack of a call on Law. The fumble by Watson. Logan Mankins getting owned by Jenkins on several plays. Some of the poor game plan decisions (No motion by Moss or Welker, lack of running by NJGE early, change up of the receivers on the out pattern, etc) .

You want to focus on 2 blown plays and claim that they decided the whole game. They didn't. They were just the culmination of a series of unfortunate events.

 

[dhamz]

Sometimes I am surprised by what develops into an argument on this board.

Of course there were plays on offense and special teams that could of/should of been made.

But how does anyone really think the defense got it done last night? Twice the Pats tied it in the 4th and twice the defense let them walk down the field for a score. That is totally unnacceptable and BB, Pees, Seymour, Vrabel, Bruschi, etc will be the first to tell you that.

 

[DaBruinz]

Why do the mods let this poster personally insult people who criticize the Pats?

Simply posting "you have no logic" is not a valid or appropriate defense. This needs to be taken care of, this is a very legitimate thread.

Maybe in YOUR eyes. But then, you have been accused of the exact same thing by numerous people.

You can criticize people all you want. Just be prepared to be criticized back. If you think criticism is a personal insult, then you are the one with the issue. Not people like Deus.

Its NOT a legitimate thread. People like yourself, TheArchives and neuronet want to blame everything on what happened in OT without looking at the bigger picture. Its illogical and myopic. Technically, you could take that as me calling you illogical and myopic. That's my opinion of you. That's an opinion I am entitled to voice. It wasn't an insult to your sexuality or your race and it wasn't anything vulgar.

People like yourself who WHINE all the time are the problem with this country. You want the rights but you refuse to take the responsibility that comes with those rights.

 

[LeonPowe]

Deus and others have an excuse for everything. According to them, you have no logic if you try to pin the loss on ANYTHING, be it offense, defense, special teams, or coaching.

ETA: Also, I'm sure they're all "very proud" of the way the team is playing at 6-4, even though they should be 8-2.

 

[DaBruinz]

1.) How did the game get tied?

2.) How many points did the defense surrender in the second half?
7 points. How many did they surrender in the first half? 24.


3.) How many turnovers did the defense cause in the second half?
1. Big deal.

4.) Which Patriots defenders fumbled the ball upon making a reception?
Ben Watson

5.) Which Patriots defender snapped the ball past the QB before the QB was ready for it and cost the team a golden scoring opportunity?
I don't think Koppen is a defender.

6.) Which Patriots defender blew a whistle for a non-existent holding call on a third down play that was stopped?
Would Vrabel really blow a whistle on himself? Do you want to rethink that question? According to the refs, he was holding. Get over it.

7.) What percentage of overtime games are won without the team that loses the coin toss ever even getting the ball?
Is that the best you can come up with? Do you want the Pats to be like the rest of the NFL? That is what a champion is, different from the rest of the pack.

8.) Do you even understand that giving up points does not = 'losing the game'?
Yes it does. Having your defense give up 27 and special teams giving up 7 isn't going to win you many games.Anything else? As I told you before, I don't care what the defense or offense did during those 4 quarters, it was a brand new game in overtime. Defense wins games, defense wins championships. Enough said.

If you don't care what the offense and defense did during those first 4 quarters, then you are being extremely myopic and missing much of the point.

1) You refused to answer this. The game got TIED because the Referees blew a 3rd and 6 call on Mike Vrabel. A called that resulted, in the end, in the Jets getting a TD instead of being held to a FG. THAT is extremely relevent because we don't go to OT otherwise.

2) While the defense surrendered 7 points in the 2nd half, they did NOT surrender 24 in the first. They surrendered 17. The other 7 came on special teams.

3) One turnover was a very big deal because it killed a Jets drive and resulted in points for the Patriots.

4) You really need to work on your reading comprehension. The question asked which Patriot's DEFENDERS fumbled the ball. Not which Patriots' player. The correct answer is NONE.

5) Hey, you got one correct. That was Deus Irae's point. And that screw up by Koppen killed a Patriots drive.

6) The refs were WRONG. Its pretty sad when Chris Collinsworth, a well known Patriots hater and Favre lover, says that the Ref made the incorrect call. This called had more to do with the Patriots losing than the play in OT because there wouldn't have been OT.

7) A champion isn't always different from the rest of the pack. In fact, being a "champion" has nothing to do with a 50/50 coin flip. You're floundering here.

8) Sorry, but giving up points does NOT equate to losing the game. And you purposely modified what was said to suit your own argument and not what was asked of you. Defense helps to win games, but scoring more points than your opponents is what wins games. Reality is that you take off even the 4 gift points that the Refs handed the Jets and the Patriots defense did their job and the game is over with a Pats win.

Reality is that it takes GOOD PLAY by all facets of your team to win Championships and its a misnomer to say that JUST DEFENSE wins championships. The Patriots team of 2001 proved that. Or do you not remember the AFCCG game from that year? Or how about the SB from that year? How many points did the Pats defense score in that game? How about the Pats offense?

 

[Theplayer]

just wanted to add that the Vrabel call probably didn't effect the outcome. The Pats kick a FG with 1 second if down by 3, no way they throw the ball into the end zone in that situation. However, with more time and time outs, maybe they do score a TD..but then again, if they were down by 3 the Jets don't go to prevent and give up those easy caches over the middle.

 

[DaBruinz]

Stop it with your whining over the penalty, OK? If the Jets kick the FG instead of scoring the TD, we would have kicked a FG to tie it on the last drive in regulation rather than having Moss make that highlight-reel catch for the TD.

Either way, it doesn't change the outcome at all, so drop it.

How do you know that the Pats would have just scored a FG? You don't. The Patriots could have, very easily, scored the TD and won the game. Unless you are another Miss Cleo.

 

[DaBruinz]

the Jets are killing me the last time I went to the Jets Pats game was 2002 right before christmass and pennington ruined that tonite again, no more pats jets games for me. also would the broncos consider taking watson in exchange for graham? man i wish we ponied up for assante now he made a huge difference in the secondary

Asante wouldn't have made a huge difference in the secondary. Have you been watching the Eagles games? Asante looks pedestrian.

As for trading Watson for Graham, it wouldn't matter. Watson blocking wasn't the issue. Watson had one fumble. But he also made up for it with the TD catch and a couple of other clutch catches in the 4th quarter. The fumble still hurts, but you are seriously over-reacting.

 

[DaBruinz]

Nobody has let ST off the hook. This thread is about the OT.

If they hadn't made that play at the end of regulation, nobody would blame the offense. That was a beautiful set of downs, but nobody expects them to score with one time out, so little time. I'd still blame the defense for allowing the 7 minute drive (and I'd reserve a little anger for that holding call).

Jeez. People here are weird. Focus on one problem area, and they point out all the others, as if that erases the focus. There are lots of problem areas, and it is fine if a thread focuses on one. The thread title is no exaggeration.

How do you think they would describe OT as a defensive unit? A success? Lord have mercy if you don't like the focus start a different thread.

Main point:
3rd and 15: WFT
Loose coverage in sudden death play: WTF

'nuf said.

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

Except it wasn't loose coverage. It was a BLOWN coverage. Someone was supposed to cover Keller. Either Vrabel, Mayo or Meriweather. None of them did. On the 2nd pass to Keller, it was either Woods, Mayo or Meriweather. Again, NONE of them did.

Please learn the difference between loose coverage, zone coverage, and man to man coverage.

 

[DaBruinz]

The holding call was meaningless to the outcome. It was a horrible call. It just had no impact on the result of the game.

Without the call, the Jets get a FG there. And the Pats then kick one on 4th down with 8 seconds left and the game is still tied and still goes to OT.

Dhamz - That has to be the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. Yes, it does make a huge differnce. Its 4 points extra and a lot more time on the clock. I have no doubt that the Patriots could have gotten down the field and score a TD without having to settle for a FG.

 

[DaBruinz]

Sometimes I am surprised by what develops into an argument on this board.

Of course there were plays on offense and special teams that could of/should of been made.

But how does anyone really think the defense got it done last night? Twice the Pats tied it in the 4th and twice the defense let them walk down the field for a score. That is totally unnacceptable and BB, Pees, Seymour, Vrabel, Bruschi, etc will be the first to tell you that.

and on 2 occasions the offense didn't do a damn thing in the 4th quarter with the ball. What's your point?

Yes, its a team loss, but the TEAM wasn't just playing against the Jets, they were also playing against the Refs. Without that BS holding call, its an entirely different game with the Pats, most likely, winning in regulation.