David Givens

[rhubma]

To me, David Givens = Drew Pearson, and that is a very solid player on a championship caliber team (in fact I started another mental exercise thread about comparing current Pats with historical players). IMO the Pats should do ALOT to keep him, but they can't keep DG at the expense of Seymour, Adam V, D Branch, etc.

 

[nukin]

David Givens = Jerry Rice.





Just kidding.

 

[Brady#12]

David Givens = Jerry Rice.





Just kidding.

well waht about Tom Brady = Joe montana

 

[rhubma]

well waht about Tom Brady = Joe montana

Too easy...

Colvin = ?
K Faulk = ?

I know it is frowned upon to talk about another thread in a thread, so I won't go any further here.

 

[Miguel]

Do you have examples of guys who arent speed merchants or very big WRs, or in the 90 catch class who have gotten big deals?

March 2004 - Darrell Jackson who got a 6 year $25 million contract with a $8 million signing bonus. Darrell Jackson then had a 90 catch season in 2004.

March 2005 - TJ Houz..... from the Bengals

Derrick Mason signed a 5-year $23 million deal with the Titans in 2001 before having 90 catch seasons in 2003 and 2004.

 

[Brady#12]

March 2004 - Darrell Jackson who got a 6 year $25 million contract with a $8 million signing bonus. Darrell Jackson then had a 90 catch season in 2004.

March 2005 - TJ Houz..... from the Bengals

Derrick Mason signed a 5-year $23 million deal with the Titans in 2001 before having 90 catch seasons in 2003 and 2004.

can we afford to give Givens a big deal?

 

[Miguel]

So, what do you think his value would be on the open market and to the Patriots?

I would not be surprised to see Givens get a deal that averages $4 million a year.

In 2001 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $23 million deal.
In 2004 Darrell Jackson got a 6 year $25 million deal.
In 2005 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $20 million deal.

If the Patriots were willing to pay a 31-year old Mason more than what he got from the Ravens, it is certainly reasonable that there will be a team out there that will be willing to pay a 25-year old Givens what Mason got from the Ravens.

Look at the teams that Givens would be a good fit for

Browns
Panthers
Steelers
Bills if Moulds leaves
Jacksonville if Jimmy Smith retires
Broncos if Rod Smith retires
Giants if Toomer retires
Chargers
Chiefs
49ers

The supply of few good FA WRs coupled with the demand for good WRs tells me that Givens is going to get a big payday.

I could not possibly disagree with Andy more on his contentions that Givens "may get the best offer he can get from us (the Patriots) and that Givens "may not be a sought after FA".

 

[Miguel]

can we afford to give Givens a big deal?

IMO, yes. The Pats were willing to give Mason a big deal last year. I contend that the money that the Pats did not spend on Mason was then spent on Starks and Chad Brown.

The problem for the Pats is not the ability to afford Givens but the ability to afford BOTH Givens and Branch.

I will be pleasantly surprised to see Givens in a Patriots roster in 2006. This contract may be Givens' best chance for a big payday. I expect him to take full advantage of it. If he does with another team and I expect that he will, I will then thank him for his years of service and wish him well.

 

[Brady#12]

would make sense thanks for your services Givens

 

[Ring 6]

I would not be surprised to see Givens get a deal that averages $4 million a year.

In 2001 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $23 million deal.
In 2004 Darrell Jackson got a 6 year $25 million deal.
In 2005 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $20 million deal.

If the Patriots were willing to pay a 31-year old Mason more than what he got from the Ravens, it is certainly reasonable that there will be a team out there that will be willing to pay a 25-year old Givens what Mason got from the Ravens.

Look at the teams that Givens would be a good fit for

Browns
Panthers
Steelers
Bills if Moulds leaves
Jacksonville if Jimmy Smith retires
Broncos if Rod Smith retires
Giants if Toomer retires
Chargers
Chiefs
49ers

The supply of few good FA WRs coupled with the demand for good WRs tells me that Givens is going to get a big payday.

I could not possibly disagree with Andy more on his contentions that Givens "may get the best offer he can get from us (the Patriots) and that Givens "may not be a sought after FA".

Thats fine. Nothing wrong with disagreeing.
Although I dont think those quotes are accurate to what I said.
My point was simply that Givens isn't the type of WR that teams pay huge money for.

I don't know why it would be a surprise that we disagree over something like Free Agency, because the 32 teams and GMs cant even seem to agree on who should get what.

 

[nukin]

I would not be surprised to see Givens get a deal that averages $4 million a year.

In 2001 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $23 million deal.
In 2004 Darrell Jackson got a 6 year $25 million deal.
In 2005 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $20 million deal.

If the Patriots were willing to pay a 31-year old Mason more than what he got from the Ravens, it is certainly reasonable that there will be a team out there that will be willing to pay a 25-year old Givens what Mason got from the Ravens.

Look at the teams that Givens would be a good fit for

Browns
Panthers
Steelers
Bills if Moulds leaves
Jacksonville if Jimmy Smith retires
Broncos if Rod Smith retires
Giants if Toomer retires
Chargers
Chiefs
49ers

The supply of few good FA WRs coupled with the demand for good WRs tells me that Givens is going to get a big payday.

I could not possibly disagree with Andy more on his contentions that Givens "may get the best offer he can get from us (the Patriots) and that Givens "may not be a sought after FA".

The Eagles could use him as well.

 

[Miguel]

Although I dont think those quotes are accurate to what I said.My point was simply that Givens isn't the type of WR that teams pay huge money for.

These are your words in 2 earlier posts in this thread":
"I dont know that I'd call Givens a deep threat, but he is excellent in the intermediate zones (12-18 yards) and gets good run after catch on those routes.
I just have a feeling when he hits the open market, he is going to get 'Product of the System" treatment.
Many teams put too much weight on measurables, especially at the WR postion, and the truth is by measurables there are 100 better WRs in the NFL than Givens, maybe more.
Since we don't weigh measuarables so heavily, he may get the best offer he can get from us.
Remmber he was a RFA this year, and received no interest. Anyone considering him a big contract guy would have pursued him then too, unless they see more in him a year later. I doubt that because he looks exactly the same to me as last year."

"Im not saying dont sign him.
Im saying at his position he may not be a sought after FA.
Why did Patten get that contract? Speed. He was the fastest guy on the Patriots.
Invariably teams are looking for excellent speed, or size, or quickness in a WR. They want "The athlete". Givens wont stand up that yardstick very well. Of all the positions on the field, raw skills are valued the highest at WR."

I wrote:
I could not possibly disagree with Andy more on his contentions that Givens "may get the best offer he can get from us (the Patriots) and that Givens "may not be a sought after FA".

Even though I neglected to put a quotation mark after the word us, I feel that I quote you accurately. My quotes were cut and pasted from your prior posts. IMO, "he may not be a sought after FA" is consistent with your point - "Givens isn't the type of WR that teams pay huge money for".

 

[PATSNUTme]

These are your words in 2 earlier posts in this thread":
"I dont know that I'd call Givens a deep threat, but he is excellent in the intermediate zones (12-18 yards) and gets good run after catch on those routes.
I just have a feeling when he hits the open market, he is going to get 'Product of the System" treatment.
Many teams put too much weight on measurables, especially at the WR postion, and the truth is by measurables there are 100 better WRs in the NFL than Givens, maybe more.
Since we don't weigh measuarables so heavily, he may get the best offer he can get from us.
Remmber he was a RFA this year, and received no interest. Anyone considering him a big contract guy would have pursued him then too, unless they see more in him a year later. I doubt that because he looks exactly the same to me as last year."



"Im not saying dont sign him.
Im saying at his position he may not be a sought after FA.
Why did Patten get that contract? Speed. He was the fastest guy on the Patriots.
Invariably teams are looking for excellent speed, or size, or quickness in a WR. They want "The athlete". Givens wont stand up that yardstick very well. Of all the positions on the field, raw skills are valued the highest at WR."

I wrote:
I could not possibly disagree with Andy more on his contentions that Givens "may get the best offer he can get from us (the Patriots) and that Givens "may not be a sought after FA".

Even though I neglected to put a quotation mark after the word us, I feel that I quote you accurately. My quotes were cut and pasted from your prior posts. IMO, "he may not be a sought after FA" is consistent with your point - "Givens isn't the type of WR that teams pay huge money for".

I have an unanswered question.

In your opinion, and other please join in, what dollar value would you place on Givens as a FA. And, most importantly, what cap value would you say Givens should have fro the Patriots to sign him long term.

I already stated that a three year $6mil contract with cap value of $2 mil cap hit per year would seem right to me. Am I in the ballpark?

I don't care how he gets it,$3 mil bonus and $1 mil Salary per year?

 

[Ring 6]

I have an unanswered question.

In your opinion, and other please join in, what dollar value would you place on Givens as a FA. And, most importantly, what cap value would you say Givens should have fro the Patriots to sign him long term.

I already stated that a three year $6mil contract with cap value of $2 mil cap hit per year would seem right to me. Am I in the ballpark?

I don't care how he gets it,$3 mil bonus and $1 mil Salary per year?

No, I think its more than that.
Of course, the average $$ depend on the years.
Since Givens is yuong, he will get a longer term contract than older guys would.

Im not too good at this, but here is my guess.

He will get 5 years. He'll get a 5mill sb.
The salaries will be 500k first year (almost always min salary first yr for FA)
1.5mil
2mill
2.5mill
4mill

Total deal is 5 yrs 15mill.
Cap hits, 1.5, 2.5, 3,3.5,5

I do NOT consider that a big FA contract.

 

[Miguel]

I have an unanswered question.

Earlier in this thread I did answer your question:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by PATSNUTme
So, what do you think his value would be on the open market and to the Patriots?

Start of my response:

"I (being Miguel)would not be surprised to see Givens get a deal that averages $4 million a year.

In 2001 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $23 million deal.
In 2004 Darrell Jackson got a 6 year $25 million deal.
In 2005 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $20 million deal.

If the Patriots were willing to pay a 31-year old Mason more than what he got from the Ravens, it is certainly reasonable that there will be a team out there that will be willing to pay a 25-year old Givens what Mason got from the Ravens.

Look at the teams that Givens would be a good fit for

Browns
Panthers
Steelers
Bills if Moulds leaves
Jacksonville if Jimmy Smith retires
Broncos if Rod Smith retires
Giants if Toomer retires
Chargers
Chiefs
49ers

The supply of few good FA WRs coupled with the demand for good WRs tells me that Givens is going to get a big payday.

I could not possibly disagree with Andy more on his contentions that Givens "may get the best offer he can get from us (the Patriots) and that Givens "may not be a sought after FA"."

A couple of notes to my original post.
Mason had his 90-catch seasons AFTER he signed his 2001 deal with the Titans.
Jackson had his 90-catch season AFTER he signed his 2004 deal with the Seahawks.
Fleabassist1 pointed out that Givens would also be a good fit for the Eagles
Neither Mason or Jackson have great measurables.

 

[teamplay]

I would have agreed with Andy's assessment (speed, athletism = $$$) until the big Hine Ward (similar player) contract. Now, who knows?

 

[PATSNUTme]

No, I think its more than that.
Of course, the average $$ depend on the years.
Since Givens is yuong, he will get a longer term contract than older guys would.

Im not too good at this, but here is my guess.

He will get 5 years. He'll get a 5mill sb.
The salaries will be 500k first year (almost always min salary first yr for FA)
1.5mil
2mill
2.5mill
4mill

Total deal is 5 yrs 15mill.
Cap hits, 1.5, 2.5, 3,3.5,5

I do NOT consider that a big FA contract.

Don't consider that to be excessive for a #2 reciever. thanks for you thoughts.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Earlier in this thread I did answer your question:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by PATSNUTme
So, what do you think his value would be on the open market and to the Patriots?

Start of my response:

"I (being Miguel)would not be surprised to see Givens get a deal that averages $4 million a year.

In 2001 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $23 million deal.
In 2004 Darrell Jackson got a 6 year $25 million deal.
In 2005 Derrick Mason got a 5 year $20 million deal.

If the Patriots were willing to pay a 31-year old Mason more than what he got from the Ravens, it is certainly reasonable that there will be a team out there that will be willing to pay a 25-year old Givens what Mason got from the Ravens.

Look at the teams that Givens would be a good fit for

Browns
Panthers
Steelers
Bills if Moulds leaves
Jacksonville if Jimmy Smith retires
Broncos if Rod Smith retires
Giants if Toomer retires
Chargers
Chiefs
49ers

The supply of few good FA WRs coupled with the demand for good WRs tells me that Givens is going to get a big payday.

I could not possibly disagree with Andy more on his contentions that Givens "may get the best offer he can get from us (the Patriots) and that Givens "may not be a sought after FA"."

A couple of notes to my original post.
Mason had his 90-catch seasons AFTER he signed his 2001 deal with the Titans.
Jackson had his 90-catch season AFTER he signed his 2004 deal with the Seahawks.
Fleabassist1 pointed out that Givens would also be a good fit for the Eagles
Neither Mason or Jackson have great measurables.

Thanks, and I di miss your first reponse. $4mil per year would be too much for the Patriots to pay IMO.

 

[ilduce06410]

more than ward himself?

I would have agreed with Andy's assessment (speed, athletism = $$$) until the big Hine Ward (similar player) contract. Now, who knows?

IMHO BB/SP thoroughly love the twig. if they hand DG a contract averaging $4m per year then twig won't get the $ he deserves.
i've read, in ESPN and in Sporting News, that patriots are not above thowing out other players' salary figures as a means of keeping payroll in line.
troy brown has been the favorite whipping stick, playing for the veteran minimum.
patriots may get away with handiling branch and givens as a package deal "if we give you that much, then we have to give it to the other one too".
but clearly patriots cannot pay both twig and DG and keep their salary structure solid.

 

[NOWAKJOE]

What about PK Sam? Do you think he could be a possible replacement if we can't resign Givens? Afterall he is that possesion-type receiver.