Changes at DE and OLB - Improvement?

[mgteich]

Sleeper?

Lewis was a 1st rounder who has played almost every game for his 8 year career, and started for the last two years (31 of 32 games). IN what sense is he a sleeper?

Everything I read about Lewis suggests to me that he may be a nice little sleeper.

 

[cstjohn17]

The inside defense should be improved. We have added Lewis or Warren isude. We have added Spikes and McKenzaie. Brace should be at least a bit better over the year. But are we really improved outside?
===========================================================

OUT
Green

IN
Warren and/or Lewis
========================

OUT
Thomas

IN
Cunningham and perhaps Crable
========================

No, not imrproved. Still among the worst talent in the league at 3-4 OLB. No matter how I look at it I still see a whole bunch of pretty good or nice players but not a single difference maker and certainly no one that opponents must scheme for.

I am hopefull the sum will be greater than the parts, in typical Patriots fashion the defense will end up in the top 10 (around 18 PPG) but won't blow anyone away.

 

[lillestroom]

Sleeper?

Lewis was a 1st rounder who has played almost every game for his 8 year career, and started for the last two years (31 of 32 games). IN what sense is he a sleeper?

In the terms that hardly anyone has mentioned his arrival at NE this season. All I hear is how much of an impact Gronk will make, Taylor Price, Tate, Cunningham, McCarty etc . Very little on this fella.

He may have the biggest impact of all.

 

[captain stone]

No, not improved. Still among the worst talent in the league at 3-4 OLB. No matter how I look at it I still see a whole bunch of pretty good or nice players but not a single difference maker and certainly no one that opponents must scheme for.

I am hopefull the sum will be greater than the parts, in typical Patriots fashion the defense will end up in the top 10 (around 18 PPG) but won't blow anyone away.

I agree, esp. with the bolded (by me) part.

Until proven otherwise, Cunningham for Afailus is a wash; no other OLB is walking through the door.
Lewis & Deaderick have to be an improvement - however slight - over Jarvis Green, because he looked last year like a football player who had nothing left in the tank. I'll gladly take the comp pick for him.

Overall, I see at least slight improvement at DE, but zero pass-rush ability from it.
And I see no improvement whatsoever at OLB, unless Chicken Legs performs a medical miracle, Burgess discovers the Fountain of Youth, TBC plays up to his new contract, Ninko becomes the next Vrabel, and Cunningham the next Willie Mac.
I don't know why Bill was so quick to release Bruce Davis; he would at least have given the others a little competition & insurance.

 

[supafly]

I agree, esp. with the bolded (by me) part.

Until proven otherwise, Cunningham for Afailus is a wash; no other OLB is walking through the door.
Lewis & Deaderick have to be an improvement - however slight - over Jarvis Green, because he looked last year like a football player who had nothing left in the tank. I'll gladly take the comp pick for him.

Overall, I see at least slight improvement at DE, but zero pass-rush ability from it.
And I see no improvement whatsoever at OLB, unless Chicken Legs performs a medical miracle, Burgess discovers the Fountain of Youth, TBC plays up to his new contract, Ninko becomes the next Vrabel, and Cunningham the next Willie Mac.
I don't know why Bill was so quick to release Bruce Davis; he would at least have given the others a little competition & insurance.

I'm guessing that there's something behind the scenes with Davis. He may just be an underachiever etc, or maybe he just had a hard time picking up the system.

There has to be a reason that a mid to high rd pick (3rd rd) didn't make it at all for 2 reasonably good franchises--especially the Steelers. They tend to have a good feel when it comes to LB's.

---------

Even if we don't improve at OLB, we improved at ILB at least, not to mention the secondary. DL could end up being an improvement over last yr's, with Green gone, Pryor having another yr's experience + Belichick taking over many defensive responsibilities.

And that's in the negative outlook. If you're on the positive side, Crable is still an unknown and can be just as productive as anyone, not to mention that Burgess showed better rush specialty ability in the last 1/4 of the season. OLB could very well end up being better than last year--I'm optimistically expecting it to be.

 

[RayClay]

I'm happy that in three drafts we drafted 5 LBs high, so finally there's a talent pool. We might prefer experienced LBs, but it's apparent no one is handing them to us with the proliferation of 3-4 defenses.

The good part of being undermanned is we should have some good backups and competition with Woods, Guyton and Burgess and competition often makes players excel.

Given I like Cunningham on tape, if Crable shows something, we could be in business. Ninchovich too.

 

[DarrylS]

If this team improves at MLB, with McKenzie and Spikes will that impact the OLB's & DE's??

If we add quality depth to the D backfield will that make the DE's & OLB's better??

There has been much discussion about how our D backfield has improved, and how they are more "physical" than in the past.. if these areas improve along with the D line the deficiencies of the OLB and DE will be less apparent.

With that being said, I suspect some rough patches initially, but when the right combination is found this Defense could be very good or probably better than last year, what were we 6th in the league at the end of the season???

 

[OldNEPatsFan]

Sleeper?

Lewis was a 1st rounder who has played almost every game for his 8 year career, and started for the last two years (31 of 32 games). IN what sense is he a sleeper?

He has never played the 5 technique, nor shown the ability to be able to do so.

 

[lillestroom]

He has never played the 5 technique, nor shown the ability to be able to do so.

So... you think this guy may even be cut ???

 

[captain stone]

So... you think this guy may even be cut ???

If Lewis doesn't show that he can adequately handle the 5-technique duties better than G Warren or Richard (his closest competitors IMO), then yes I do believe that he could be cut. Heck, Bill has released players for whom he traded 5th-round draft picks just 6 months earlier.

 

[captain stone]

I'm guessing that there's something behind the scenes with Davis. He may just be an underachiever etc, or maybe he just had a hard time picking up the system.

There has to be a reason that a mid to high rd pick (3rd rd) didn't make it at all for 2 reasonably good franchises--especially the Steelers. They tend to have a good feel when it comes to LB's.

You might be right there. Too bad.

 

[IllegalContact]

If this team improves at MLB, with McKenzie and Spikes will that impact the OLB's & DE's??

If we add quality depth to the D backfield will that make the DE's & OLB's better??

There has been much discussion about how our D backfield has improved, and how they are more "physical" than in the past.. if these areas improve along with the D line the deficiencies of the OLB and DE will be less apparent.

With that being said, I suspect some rough patches initially, but when the right combination is found this Defense could be very good or probably better than last year, what were we 6th in the league at the end of the season???

I don't believe that this is how it works.

Without a pass-rush, it does not matter what you have for a secondary. All of your underneath secondary targets will be wide open because LB's (especially the ones the pats have) have never proven to be able to stay with RB's and TE's for more than a few seconds.

At this moment all you have is potential at OLB. and given that the pats have never been successful at getting an immediate impact at OLB from a rookie. Unless BB changes his philosophy on this and allows someone like Cunnigham do what others in that situation have been allowed to do which is primary be a pass rusher until you can at least show you can cover a TE or at least disrupt his route for long enough to take him out of the play.

 

[supafly]

I don't believe that this is how it works.

Without a pass-rush, it does not matter what you have for a secondary. All of your underneath secondary targets will be wide open because LB's (especially the ones the pats have) have never proven to be able to stay with RB's and TE's for more than a few seconds.

At this moment all you have is potential at OLB. and given that the pats have never been successful at getting an immediate impact at OLB from a rookie. Unless BB changes his philosophy on this and allows someone like Cunnigham do what others in that situation have been allowed to do which is primary be a pass rusher until you can at least show you can cover a TE or at least disrupt his route for long enough to take him out of the play.

In the Belichick era, what examples do you have that they've 'never been successful at getting an immediate impact at OLB from a rookie?'

Other than Crable who was hurt, and obviously doesn't count since he's basically a blank slate still?

 

[supafly]

So... you think this guy may even be cut ???

I'd have to guess that most of us don't have Lewis as a 'lock' to make the team--although he'll certainly have the opportunity. I would think that most of us have him on the bubble.

I wouldn't be surprised one way or the other, plenty of 'lesser known' seasoned vets have failed to earn a roster spot before--while plenty of others obviously have.

I'd have it at 50/50, but he's certainly as good a candidate as anyone else at this point (IMO). It seems to be between a couple vets with some questionable weaknesses, and a couple of rookies with no experience, so it's basically anyone's position to earn.

 

[IllegalContact]

In the Belichick era, what examples do you have that they've 'never been successful at getting an immediate impact at OLB from a rookie?'

Other than Crable who was hurt, and obviously doesn't count since he's basically a blank slate still?

Crable was not an impact as a rookie. whether he was hurt or not doesn't make a difference. Regardless of the situation, there is a bottom line.

can you come up with an OLB who has made an immediate impact as a rookie?

I understand perfectly well that the pats have yet to ever target an OLB high in the draft, but maybe that's part of the problem right now.

Based on the past, can you in any way say with confidence that the pats are going to get something out of a rookie at OLB this year? and what would that be based on? hope?

 

[MustaphaM0nd]

There were plenty of rookies who turned in strong rookie campaigns. Brian Orkapo, Clay Matthews, and Brian Cushing all come to mind.

The transition of the league towards the 3-4 has really hurt our talent pool.

 

[supafly]

Crable was not an impact as a rookie.

Really? None of us were aware of such circumstances.

can you come up with an OLB who has made an immediate impact as a rookie?

I understand perfectly well that the pats have yet to ever target an OLB high in the draft, but maybe that's part of the problem right now.

Based on the past, can you in any way say with confidence that the pats are going to get something out of a rookie at OLB this year? and what would that be based on? hope?

I think you pretty much answered your own question. Since there hasn't been anything to compare it to, then how would asking this question make any sense?

If they start drafting high caliber, high round OLB's and they don't pan out for the next 3-4 years, then your comment would have more merit. Right now, there's no pattern either way.

 

[IllegalContact]

Really? None of us were aware of such circumstances.




I think you pretty much answered your own question. Since there hasn't been anything to compare it to, then how would asking this question make any sense?

If they start drafting high caliber, high round OLB's and they don't pan out for the next 3-4 years, then your comment would have more merit. Right now, there's no pattern either way.

I like how you take things out of context in your flailings

did they draft a high round/high caliber OLB?

since there is no pattern, the only basis is hope. which is good. but no foundation to consider this years situation an improvement as the the title of the thread would suggest.

 

[supafly]

I like how you take things out of context in your flailings

did they draft a high round/high caliber OLB?

since there is no pattern, the only basis is hope. which is good. but no foundation to consider this years situation an improvement as the the title of the thread would suggest.

First of all, the title of the thread has a question mark after it, so I'm not seeing how it 'suggests' anything at all (?)

Secondly, yes, they did draft a high round OLB project in Cunningham in the #2nd round. That is some reason for hope, considering they haven't done that before. As I said several times now, IF we continue to draft high round OLB picks in the next 3-4 yrs, and they don't pan out, THEN you'd actually have something to compare it to--and to complain about. In all of the positions on the field, (not including QB for obvious reasons) from RB, TE, OL, DL, ILB, S, and CB--first round draft picks have been taken in every position except for OLB or OLB conversions.

OLB/OLB projects have not even been taken with 2nd rd picks, (before this yr) let alone 1st rd picks.......soooooo, there is absolutely no relevance of you stating that "we don't have good immediate impact from our OLB rookies."

Lastly, the whole premise of my statement was that there is no pattern---once again. How can you say that we've never had an immediate impact from an OLB rookie before when all that's been previously drafted is camp fodder and low round selections? Not to mention that we have had the position locked down for the most part for the majority of the decade, with good talent players. Only recently did we have a big need at OLB, hence the 2nd and 3rd rd draft picks in 2 of the last 3 years.

There have been numerous posters who have pointed this out before many times, so it's not like this is my personal theory. It sounds like your trying to shoot the messenger.

 

[Ring 6]

If Lewis doesn't show that he can adequately handle the 5-technique duties better than G Warren or Richard (his closest competitors IMO), then yes I do believe that he could be cut. Heck, Bill has released players for whom he traded 5th-round draft picks just 6 months earlier.

Actually '5 technique' is a one-gap alignment. 5 Technique is the DL that plays on the Ts outside shoulder and penetrates the gap outside of the T.
We play 2 gap. I'm not sure if your post was comparing Lewis to a position we don't really have, or you misnamed the postion you were talking about.

Our DEs play a 4 technique.