Camp Battle at WR - Kenbrell Thompkins vs Josh Boyce

[Bruins29]

Deus I am just trying to give my fans what they want, if I do not post, Bruins29 will have nothing to disagree with, and if Bruins29 has nothing to disagree with Joker will have nothing rate as a “winner”.

I am sorry. Who is getting into who's head? I think you have it all backwards.

 

[Brady6]

I am sorry. Who is getting into who's head? I think you have it all backwards.

You are in my head, I have been considering getting a restraining order against you all afternoon in fact.

 

[strngplyr]

Really, because Manx, Mayo, and OTG are the three most knowledgeable draft gurus on this board and all of them reference workout numbers, as do the majority of the other people who invest time in the scouting and drafting period of the offseason.

You seem to like many others think that what you see on Sunday is the end all be all and judge a player solely on that, you determine that if they are effective as a rookie, they will be great but if they struggle, they are going to suck. Once you see a player on the field that is all that matters is the philosophy preached, but that does not allow for the possibility for a player to develop.

If this were 2011, I would have posted Eric Decker’s combine stats you would have told me they do not matter and pointed out that he only had 6 catches as a rookie, others would have agreed. We would have determined Decker sucks, Joker would have rated the thread a “winner” and it would have went just like this discussion about Boyce.

Are you going to tell us that what we see in mid February matters more than what we see on Sunday? If a player doesn't perform on the field, you're damn right I'm going to think he's not that good, and if they do perform I will think they are good.

Players can get better or get worse, when they get better it's usually when they're younger and their understanding of the NFL is becoming better, adjusting to the speed of the game, etc. When they get worse, they're usually older and declining, players like Peyton Manning mask that by being so incredibly smart and understands the game better than everyone on the other side of the ball. Tom Brady is physically declining, to a MUCH lesser extent, but he is still able to mask that by being smarter than every defender on the field.

The combine numbers have nothing to do with how they grasp the game.

The "draft experts" like Mayock and Kiper/McShay are always saying the combine and pro days don't really matter, the reason every other mediot on NFL Network and ESPN back it like it's a holy book is because their networks air it and need to inflate the value of it to the public, keeping an audience and making money. There are plenty of people who think they can predict the first round of the draft by watching the combine.

If it was all that valuable than the Jets would have the next Randy Moss when they drafted Stephen Hill and the Oakland Raiders would be the most dominant team in the NFL being led by 7x NFL MVP Jamarcus Russel and his all-pro cast of 4.2/4.3 Wide Receivers.

 

[Brady6]

Did you stop taking your meds?

Is that an attempt to **** on someone for a mental illness? You become cooler with each post really, you would totally be the most popular kid in 6th grade.

 

[Bruins29]

You are in my head, I have been considering getting a restraining order against you all afternoon in fact.

I can recommend a good judge in Lynnfield.

 

[mgteich]

I have noted a strange phenomenon. After removing Brady6 from my ignore list, DI has seemd so much more reasonable than in the past.

 

[Bruins29]

Is that an attempt to **** on someone for a mental illness? You become cooler with each post really, you would totally be the most popular kid in 6th grade.

Do you have a mental illness? Actually its a rhetorical question.

 

[Brady6]

Are you going to tell us that what we see in mid February matters more than what we see on Sunday? If a player doesn't perform on the field, you're damn right I'm going to think he's not that good, and if they do perform I will think they are good.

Players can get better or get worse, when they get better it's usually when they're younger and their understanding of the NFL is becoming better, adjusting to the speed of the game, etc. When they get worse, they're usually older and declining, players like Peyton Manning mask that by being so incredibly smart and understands the game better than everyone on the other side of the ball. Tom Brady is physically declining, to a MUCH lesser extent, but he is still able to mask that by being smarter than every defender on the field.

The combine numbers have nothing to do with how they grasp the game.

The "draft experts" like Mayock and Kiper/McShay are always saying the combine and pro days don't really matter, the reason every other mediot on NFL Network and ESPN back it like it's a holy book is because their networks air it and need to inflate the value of it to the public, keeping an audience and making money. There are plenty of people who think they can predict the first round of the draft by watching the combine.

If it was all that valuable than the Jets would have the next Randy Moss when they drafted Stephen Hill and the Oakland Raiders would be the most dominant team in the NFL being led by 7x NFL MVP Jamarcus Russel and his all-pro cast of 4.2/4.3 Wide Receivers.

I think that players are drafted and then develop on different schedules, not everyone is going to be a day 1 starter like Chandler Jones or Donta Hightower, the first half of 2013 Jamie Collins was a nonfactor, or Shane Vereen did not make an impact until the end of his second NFL season. That is when you rely on workout numbers when you see very little of a player, which is the case for a player like Boyce who play less than 15% of the teams offensive snaps as a rookie.

So to answer your question do they matter more than a what happens on Sunday, no not if the player is actually playing on Sunday, but if the player is not playing you have to look at other data, and that is what I did with Boyce.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus I am just trying to give my fans what they want, if I do not post, Bruins29 will have nothing to disagree with, and if Bruins29 has nothing to disagree with Joker will have nothing rate as a “winner”.

Look, you've seen me post. I'm the last guy here to tell you that you shouldn't stick to your guns in the face of the homer brigade. However, that's not what this is. This is about your over-reliance on nearly useless metrics. Combine numbers are fine, in context, but they are even more limited than statistical analysis of basic football statistical data (INT totals, etc...). Boyce has now been in the league for a full season. It no longer matters whether or not he registered a faster 3 cone than other players. That stopped mattering on the first day the guy hit the field in training camp. Now, what matters, is whether he can get open quickly on the field.

 

[Brady6]

I have noted a strange phenomenon. After removing Brady6 from my ignore list, DI has seemd so much more reasonable than in the past.

What is unreasonable about what I said? You do not like my viewpoints and therefore you do not like me, it is not my fault that you lack the ability to separate the two. You do not like the fact that I do not rely on my eye test for everything, and I have not been a fan of the NFL since Lombardi was coaching.

You realize this entire discussion is based on what I see value in from a scouting and projection perspective. We are not arguing over a player, or a scheme, we are arguing because I like to look at workout numbers and posters do not think I should like to do that. But sure I am the unreasonable one.

 

[mgteich]

No, that is when YOU rely on workout numbers. On the other hand, the team relies on practices, off-season and during the season, on preseason games, on team meetings, and on individual workouts and opinions of the positional coaches. And sometimes, they even get guidance from one of the player's college coaches.

Many fans see a player play in 15% of the reps. They go back to what they think of as facts, combine numbers. The teams have much better information than that.

That is when you rely on workout numbers when you see very little of a player, which is the case for a player like Boyce who play less than 15% of the teams offensive snaps as a rookie.

 

[Brady6]

Look, you've seen me post. I'm the last guy here to tell you that you shouldn't stick to your guns in the face of the homer brigade. However, that's not what this is. This is about your over-reliance on nearly useless metrics. Combine numbers are fine, in context, but they are even more limited than statistical analysis of basic football statistical data (INT totals, etc...). Boyce has now been in the league for a full season. It no longer matters whether or not he registered a faster 3 cone than other players. That stopped mattering on the first day the guy hit the field in training camp. Now, what matters, is whether he can get open quickly on the field.

Boyce played 179 snaps, and was targeted 19 times, that is a very small sample size, my referencing the combine numbers was to add more data to what was a very small amount. Would I reference combine metrics for a 16 game starter no, but if someone is basically 179 snaps past being a rookie I think it is worthy of looking at.

 

[Brady6]

No, that is when YOU rely on workout numbers. On the other hand, the team relies on practices, off-season and during the season, on preseason games, on team meetings, and on individual workouts and opinions of the positional coaches. And sometimes, they even get guidance from one of the player's college coaches.

Many fans see a player play in 15% of the reps. They go back to what they think of as facts, combine numbers. The teams have much better information than that.

That is great, and if I worked for the team I am sure I would have a different view and not have to look back at combine numbers. I do not work for the team, do you?

You are correct, that is when I rely on combine numbers, which is my personal preference, I do not see the issue, if you do not see the value in them do not read them, I am not forcing you to read my posts, if you see combine numbers scroll the F by.

 

[Deus Irae]

Boyce played 179 snaps, and was targeted 19 times, that is a very small sample size, my referencing the combine numbers was to add more data to what was a very small amount. Would I reference combine metrics for a 16 game starter no, but if someone is basically 179 snaps past being a rookie I think it is worthy of looking at.

The sample size is irrelevant, because he's been drafted and has already seen the field. The combine numbers are useless. Accept the reality. Deal with life as it is, not as if it were all pretty little boxes to be checked off. Wes Welker is the greatest slot receiver in NFL history, not because combine numbers matter, but because they don't.

 

[Brady6]

The sample size is irrelevant, because he's been drafted and has already seen the field. The combine numbers are useless. Accept the reality. Deal with life as it is, not as if it were all pretty little boxes to be checked off. Wes Welker is the greatest slot receiver in NFL history, not because combine numbers matter, but because they don't.

Personally, I like to look at their workout numbers, I like seeing young explosive talents, and gauging if they ever reach the level that their athletic ability offers for potential. That is one of my favorite aspects of being a NFL fan, if I enjoy something and enjoy talking about it I do not really see the issue, posters who do not see value in the numbers or discussing them can scroll right by, but it is what I like to do, I enjoy it.

 

[RayClay]

There is an extremely fine line between "skill" and "abilities" often times they work in conjunction with one another.

There are lots of words that can have similar shades of meaning. That's why people learn to use and distinguish between them.

To be skillful is not to be fast. If it was, only track stars would be in sports, as an example. You learn and practice skills.

 

[Deus Irae]

Personally, I like to look at their workout numbers, I like seeing young explosive talents, and gauging if they ever reach the level that their athletic ability offers for potential. That is one of my favorite aspects of being a NFL fan, if I enjoy something and enjoy talking about it I do not really see the issue, posters who do not see value in the numbers or discussing them can scroll right by, but it is what I like to do, I enjoy it.

Because it's meaningless. Do you know why people don't bring up Brady's combine numbers in every damned Brady conversation? It's because they are almost always meaningless. Do you know why so many people here tell you that they are meaningless? Because Chad Jackson, among others, demonstrated their lack of worth beyond any doubt.

When you've got guys who've never stepped on the field, and all you have is the underwear numbers, it makes sense to point to his underwear numbers. When you've got a guy who got on the field and played, essentially nobody gives a damn about his bench press. Just ask Vernon Gholston.

 

[Brady6]

Do you have a mental illness? Actually its a rhetorical question.

Yeah actually, I have an anxiety panic disorder and OCD that I have been in treatment for since I was 15, it was compounded with some PTSD after 12 years in the Air Force in 4 tours oversea. I am not ashamed of it, and I do not think anyone who suffers from a mental illness should be, I also do not think you should make comments about not taking meds it is insensitive, you do not know what people are going through that read this board.

 

[RayClay]

I really do not understand your fascination with Danny Amendola being a good wide receiver.

As opposed to your obsession/crusade/borderline OCD about him?

 

[Brady6]

Because it's meaningless. Do you know why people don't bring up Brady's combine numbers in every damned Brady conversation? It's because they are almost always meaningless. Do you know why so many people here tell you that they are meaningless? Because Chad Jackson, among others, demonstrated their lack of worth beyond any doubt.

When you've got guys who've never stepped on the field, and all you have is the underwear numbers, it makes sense to point to his underwear numbers. When you've got a guy who got on the field and played, essentially nobody gives a damn about his bench press. Just ask Vernon Gholston.

It is interesting to me, you take the good and the bad of the interest, sometimes you see a player rise up to his athletic ability, other times you see a player who has everything on paper fail. I look at Josh Boyce’s workout numbers, I determine this is a player who has the talent to do what TY Hilton or Randall Cobb do, then I watch the games and I see if that actually transpires.