Camp Battle at WR - Kenbrell Thompkins vs Josh Boyce

[Bruins29]

Is there a wide receiver on the Patriots you would take over Percy Harvin?

Well, I would rather have JE and DA (healthy) and we have them both for less than what Harvin makes.

 

[Brady6]

I think it was hyperbole re "never gonna happen" Yes, when 18 cant do it anymore or they find someone that can do it as well or better for less money - like every other player who has played here, he wont be here anymore either.

He is entering his 7th season; very few players have decade long careers as a special team’s coverage player. I think it is a real possibility that 2014 is Slater’s last season with the team, his contract is up after this season, and I am not sure Belichick is going to commit to a 30-year-old special teams player.

 

[mayoclinic]

Is there a wide receiver on the Patriots you would take over Percy Harvin?

Percy Harvin has never had a 1000 yard season, has never scored more than 6 TDs in a season, has averaged between 10.9 and 13.2 YPR in his 4 seasons, and has only 1 season with over 71 receptions. Is he really a clear "#1 WR"?

 

[Bruins29]

He is entering his 7th season; very few players have decade long careers as a special team’s coverage player. I think it is a real possibility that 2014 is Slater’s last season with the team, his contract is up after this season, and I am not sure Belichick is going to commit to a 30-year-old special teams player.

Possible but for now let us appreciate his all-pro talent and leadership.

 

[Brady6]

Well, I would rather have JE and DA (healthy) and we have them both for less than what Harvin makes.

I really do not understand your fascination with Danny Amendola being a good wide receiver. He is an average slot receiver and that is being generous. He entered the NFL in 2008, he is soon to be 29 years old, and in his career he has 2359 yards and 9 touchdowns, not to mention a yards per receptions average of under 10 yards at 9.4.

I can justify Edelman over Harvin because of Edelman’s production last season, but Amendola, a player who has an average NFL season of 50 receptions, 472 yards, and 1.8 touchdowns a season, over Percy Harvin I cannot wrap my brain around that.

I know you and others think I just dislike Amendola, and you will chalk this response up to that, but the truth is I was very excited about Amendola when he signed here, was optimistic that he could replace Welker. In fact if you look at my posting history I did not say anything negative about him until after week 6 of 2013. That is when I came to the realization that Amendola is not that good, his hype was built on the fundamental belief that the Patriots would catch lightening in a bottle 2 times in a row, interestingly they actually did, but it was not Welker/Amendola it was Welker/Edelman. Now you can take issue with what I am saying here, I am sure you will at the very least get a “winner” rating for your post from my stalker Joker, but at the end of the day unless Amendola goes out and has a 100+ catches, 1000+ yards, and 5+ touchdowns the evidence of his 6 year career supports my position that he is not that good. If he goes out this season and proves me wrong I will gladly eat my crow but until then my opinion will remain that Amendola is an average NFL receiver and we made a poor decision giving him $28.5M over 5 seasons.

 

[Brady6]

Percy Harvin has never had a 1000 yard season, has never scored more than 6 TDs in a season, has averaged between 10.9 and 13.2 YPR in his 4 seasons, and has only 1 season with over 71 receptions. Is he really a clear "#1 WR"?

No, he is not a #1 wide receiver, he is a very good all-purpose player, and outside of maybe Edelman, I would favor him over any of our wide receivers (if cost were not involved).

 

[mayoclinic]

No, he is not a #1 wide receiver, he is a very good all-purpose player, and outside of maybe Edelman, I would favor him over any of our wide receivers (if cost were not involved).

But cost is involved. Harvin has a cap # of $13.4M this year. Josh Boyce offers very similar athleticism and versatility to Harvin, and while he obviously hasn't produced much yet, he is apparently looking much more comfortable in the offense, and has a cap cost 1/20th of what Harvin does. It wouldn't shock me to see Boyce had a season comparable to Harvin's rookie year (60 receptions for 790 yards and 6 TDs plus 135 yards rushing on 15 attempts).

I personally think that we will see some very creative things using Boyce along with 2 RB sets combining White and Vereen, similar to what Chip Kelly does. Motioning WRs into the backfield, motioning a back out, and using them to create extra gaps and to get the opposing defense to declare their coverage scheme. Mike Reiss has already suggested that we may see the 2 RB combination more this year:

2. With two solid pass-catching running backs in Shane Vereen and fourth-round draft choice James White, one consideration for the Patriots is putting them on the field together. We know this much: The two-running back package is part of the team’s deep playbook as evidenced by one play in last year’s AFC divisional round playoff win over the Colts. It was the only time all season the Patriots used the two-RB grouping – with Vereen andBrandon Bolden – and it produced a 25-yard catch-and-run reception over the middle by receiver Julian Edelman. The Patriots like to manipulate matchups with various personnel groupings and that play against the Colts provided a snapshot of how a two-RB package (with 2 WRs and 1 TE) can put stress on a defense. The Colts matched in their base defense, the Patriots sent both RBs into pass routes (Bolden to the left flat, Vereen up the right sideline), and there seemed to be just enough confusion between the linebackers and defensive backs on how to handle it that it opened things up for Edelman underneath.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england...63810/quick-hit-thoughts-around-nfl-pats-183

 

[Deus Irae]

Well I guess I don't have a cursory knowledge of the game. I mean, if having a true number 1 was a "big difference" then the Texans, Falcons, Cowboys, Cardinals, Lions, Bears, Titans, Dolphins, Steelers, etc ALL would have been in the playoffs last January instead of on the Golf course. I mean they ALL have #1 WRs.

That's two ridiculous arguments in one paragraph.

First, I didn't claim you had no football knowledge, so "I guess I don't" is an extremely petty passive aggressive argument. Second, making a difference is not the same as guaranteeing a playoff spot.

If having a #1 WR was as important as YOU think they are, why was it that ONLY 2 of the 12 playoff teams that had "true #1" WR's (Bengals and Broncos). There is absolutely NO correlation between having a #1 WR and winning football games. In fact the overwhelming evidence suggests the exact OPPOSITE.

Every team in the NFL has someone that they consider their WR1, so saying that there's no correlation is completely false. The difference is that some teams have players who are actually good enough to deserve the moniker. Those teams are helped by having such players.

But if you were as smart as you think you are,you'd know that. Instead you'd rather make inaccurate snarky responses, that are designed only to inflate your well known ego even further.

Irony. So much irony.

BTW- Personally I'd love to HAVE a #1 WR, but its a luxury, NOT a necessity. Given the choice, I'd much rather have an elite OL, DL, QB, LB, DB, or TE than an elite WR. Everyone one of those positions would have a bigger impact on winning than ANY WR. Yet WR's get infinitely more attention by both the media and the fans....which often frustrates the sh!t out of me.

I never claimed that they were a necessity. There are many ways to win in the NFL, so nothing is actually a 'necessity'. However, why would you love to have one if they don't make any difference?

There is no question that you DO need good skilled WR's to have a successful offense, but you DON'T need to expend huge resources in FA and in the draft to find them. They are EVERYWHERE, as we have seen ourselves

1.) I never said you needed to spend huge resources, though it's clear that the Patriots need to do a better job of bringing in WR talent.

2.) They are not, in fact, everywhere, as we have seen ourselves.

I'll leave it at that.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

He is entering his 7th season; very few players have decade long careers as a special team’s coverage player. I think it is a real possibility that 2014 is Slater’s last season with the team, his contract is up after this season, and I am not sure Belichick is going to commit to a 30-year-old special teams player.

Larry Izzo stuck around until he was 33 or 34. He was of course earning less than Slater.

 

[mgteich]

Larry Izzo stuck around until he was 33 or 34. He was of course earning less than Slater.

and Whigham and Davis and lots of others

 

[Bruins29]

Tasker - 35

 

[Brady6]

Larry Izzo stuck around until he was 33 or 34. He was of course earning less than Slater.

Izzo was not a gunner he was a LB, his game did not rely as heavily on speed as Slater’s does. Izzo also declined significantly in the final 3 seasons here.

and Whigham and Davis and lots of others

Whigham played 6 seasons for the Patriots, his final season with the team he was 28 years old. Davis was not a gunner he was a linebacker so his speed was not as big a factor.

 

[Brady6]

But cost is involved. Harvin has a cap # of $13.4M this year. Josh Boyce offers very similar athleticism and versatility to Harvin, and while he obviously hasn't produced much yet, he is apparently looking much more comfortable in the offense, and has a cap cost 1/20th of what Harvin does. It wouldn't shock me to see Boyce had a season comparable to Harvin's rookie year (60 receptions for 790 yards and 6 TDs plus 135 yards rushing on 15 attempts).

I personally think that we will see some very creative things using Boyce along with 2 RB sets combining White and Vereen, similar to what Chip Kelly does. Motioning WRs into the backfield, motioning a back out, and using them to create extra gaps and to get the opposing defense to declare their coverage scheme. Mike Reiss has already suggested that we may see the 2 RB combination more this year:



http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4763810/quick-hit-thoughts-around-nfl-pats-183

I agree on Josh Boyce, I am extremely high on him as a player, I think he offers from a raw talent perspective the same thing to the offense that Jamie Collins offers to the defense.

Percy Harvin
Height: 5111
Weight: 192
40 Yrd Dash: 4.39
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.47
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 20
Vertical Jump: 37 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle: N/A
3-Cone Drill: N/A

Josh Boyce
Height: 5111
Weight: 206
40 Yrd Dash: 4.34
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.54
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 34
Broad Jump: 10'11"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.10
3-Cone Drill: 6.68

Harvin athletically was only better than Boyce in the 10 yard split and vertical jump. Boyce is bigger, stronger, and faster in the 40.

 

[patfanken]

Is there a wide receiver on the Patriots you would take over Percy Harvin?

That's not the right question, B6. There are lots of WR's I'd take over the guys we have. You've missed my point completely. The issue here here is NEED, not talent. Its would be great to have a guy who is as good as Larry Fitzgerald or Julio Jones. But its NOT NECESSARY to have a guy like this to be a successful offense. If Dobson, Boyce or any of the other WR's turn into an elite WR, it would be great. BUT it doesn't have to happen for this offense to be effective. I would love if we somehow traded for Andre Johnson. He is one of favorite players in the league. A guy who combines elite skills with the utmost professionalism. BUT it isn't necessary for this offense to be successful.

I don't know how many time I have to say it, or how many ways. EVERY single historical piece of evidence CONFIRMS that having a "true #1 WR and winning DOSEN'T correlate. Having good competent and dependable WR and winning DOES correlate.

As for Percy Harvin. I'd love the athlete,on my team, but his that his cap numner and lack of dependability would make me think twice before I'd pick him up

 

[Brady6]

That's not the right question, B6. There are lots of WR's I'd take over the guys we have. You've missed my point completely. The issue here here is NEED, not talent. Its would be great to have a guy who is as good as Larry Fitzgerald or Julio Jones. But its NOT NECESSARY to have a guy like this to be a successful offense. If Dobson, Boyce or any of the other WR's turn into an elite WR, it would be great. BUT it doesn't have to happen for this offense to be effective. I would love if we somehow traded for Andre Johnson. He is one of favorite players in the league. A guy who combines elite skills with the utmost professionalism. BUT it isn't necessary for this offense to be successful.

I don't know how many time I have to say it, or how many ways. EVERY single historical piece of evidence CONFIRMS that having a "true #1 WR and winning DOSEN'T correlate. Having good competent and dependable WR and winning DOES correlate.

As for Percy Harvin. I'd love the athlete,on my team, but his that his cap numner and lack of dependability would make me think twice before I'd pick him up

I did not miss your point, I agree that a true #1 WR does not make for a winning team. The most important player to a franchise is the QB, but we have Brady so if you gave Brady a true #1 WR I think it would be extremely impactful.

Is it necessary for an offense to be successful, no absolutely not as you said, but it would only serve to benefit Brady and the Patriots if we did have one. Hopefully Dobson can be that player, or maybe even LaFell a player who has been on a running team playing second fiddle to Steve Smith for the first four years of his career, who knows what he can give us with opportunity.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree on Josh Boyce, I am extremely high on him as a player, I think he offers from a raw talent perspective the same thing to the offense that Jamie Collins offers to the defense.

Percy Harvin
Height: 5111
Weight: 192
40 Yrd Dash: 4.39
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.47
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 20
Vertical Jump: 37 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'01"
20 Yrd Shuttle: N/A
3-Cone Drill: N/A

Josh Boyce
Height: 5111
Weight: 206
40 Yrd Dash: 4.34
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.54
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 34
Broad Jump: 10'11"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.10
3-Cone Drill: 6.68

Harvin athletically was only better than Boyce in the 10 yard split and vertical jump. Boyce is bigger, stronger, and faster in the 40.

You really need to stop relying on these numbers. Once you see a player play at the top levels, the numbers become almost less than meaningless.

 

[Mack Herron]

Harvin athletically was only better than Boyce in the 10 yard split and vertical jump. Boyce is bigger, stronger, and faster in the 40.

Josh Boyce
Height: 5111
Weight: 206
40 Yrd Dash: 4.34
20 Yrd Dash: 2.51
10 Yrd Dash: 1.54
225 Lb. Bench Reps: 22
Vertical Jump: 34
Broad Jump: 10'11"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.10
3-Cone Drill: 6.68

Rookie production:
9/121/0

Chad Jackson
Height: 6007
Weight: 213
40 Yrd Dash: 4.32
20 Yrd Dash: 2.56
10 Yrd Dash: 1.51
225 Lb. Bench Reps:
Vertical Jump: 38 1/2
Broad Jump: 10'02"
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.03
3-Cone Drill: 6.74

Rookie production:
13/152/3

Boyce could be a star or a dud. Lots of in-between.

 

[Brady6]

You really need to stop relying on these numbers. Once you see a player play at the top levels, the numbers become almost less than meaningless.

All due respect DI but I cannot wrap my head around athletic metrics every being meaningless to a professional athlete. It shows capabilities, if that is every reached is determined in play but when you have a player like Boyce with a 4.34 forty yard dash you have to feel more optimistic about him than you do a player like TJ Moe.

 

[Deus Irae]

All due respect DI but I cannot wrap my head around athletic metrics every being meaningless to a professional athlete. It shows capabilities, if that is every reached is determined in play but when you have a player like Boyce with a 4.34 forty yard dash you have to feel more optimistic about him than you do a player like TJ Moe.

It doesn't show game capabilities. That's one of the misleading things about it. It shows what a guy can do in his underwear, in a 'sterile' environment, with little to no other action going on at the same time. The NFL isn't played that way. What you're doing with the numbers is an even more premature version of looking at OTAs and deciding that rookies are sure-fire HOFers.

 

[Brady6]

It doesn't show game capabilities. That's one of the misleading things about it. It shows what a guy can do in his underwear, in a 'sterile' environment, with little to no other action going on at the same time. The NFL isn't played that way. What you're doing with the numbers is an even more premature version of looking at OTAs and deciding that rookies are sure-fire HOFers.

I do not disagree with what you are saying, but Mayoclinic and I were talking about Harvin and Boyce offering similar skillsets, my post was in the context of that.