Brady, the OL and the OC

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The deterioration of Deus as a poster is sad to watch.

Brady had NO ONE else to throw to except for 2 WRS. You want him to force it to Aiken to please your desire to see the ball spread out? He was forced to throw it to other receivers against the Ravens, and LOOK what happened. INTs and turnovers galore.

And I just love you picking and choosing one play to 'prove' your hypothesis on an entire season's worth of play. Deus, please come back!

The Suggs is a great example of what he's talking about though. Suggs got around Light but Brady had poor awareness when he could've stepped up and avoided Suggs. That's the type of play Brady always made in the past to make up for protection deficiencies and that's part of what made him an elite QB. This year he didn't have it quite yet. The OL gets a bad rap here, especially Matt Light, but to be honest THIS YEAR Brady was just as big a problem as the OL. Hopefully a year back will change that.

Not saying we don't need any help on the interior line, but that's just how I see it. If you watched the games this weekend you'd see Manning, Favre, and even Rivers made a couple of great throws under pressure. Just haven't seen the same out of Brady this year.

 

[Deus Irae]

This comment deserves another whole thread. But you have indeed hit an important point. TOM BRADY deserves a lot of the congrats and blame for offensive schemes and playcalling, perhaps more than Obrien, his lapdog that we criticize because we don't have the cajones to consider any fault on Brady's part.

1.) I have the "cajones" to consider fault with any, and every, person involved with the team. If others don't have that same willingness, that's on them.

2.) The "lapdog" term is, of course, just ridiculous, because you have no idea about the interplay between Brady and O'Brien.

 

[mgteich]

No RB should be playing other than on short yardage unless they are a legitimate receiving threat. If you are saying that maroney can't catch, then we have three other rb's who should be playing in fromt of him. Watson is certainly a receiving threat.

What this boild down to is playcalling by Brady and who Brady had as his 5th reveiving option. In various situations that was Aiken, Edelman, Stanback or Baker. Our acting OC, whose expertise is WR coach couldn't coach up Lewis or galloway or use any of these players as our FIFTH receiving threat.

Of course the reality is that Watson and the running backs were all but ignored as Brady focused on Moss and Welker.

Manning runs timing patterns and throws the football to 5 legitimate receivers on any and all downs (3 WRS, a TE and a RB).

Brady runs read routes, and chooses to focus on just 2 receivers, except on 3rd down where he focuses on 3 receviers (2 WRs and a RB). There's no question that the Patriots were very weak at WR this season. The schemes and OL, however, were not the problem.

Also, Brady wasn't Brady this season, with regards to his work in the pocket, as the Suggs strip sack in the Baltimore playoff game demonstrated.

 

[emoney_33]

The Suggs is a great example of what he's talking about though. Suggs got around Light but Brady had poor awareness when he could've stepped up and avoided Suggs. That's the type of play Brady always made in the past to make up for protection deficiencies and that's part of what made him an elite QB. This year he didn't have it quite yet. The OL gets a bad rap here, especially Matt Light, but to be honest THIS YEAR Brady was just as big a problem as the OL. Hopefully a year back will change that.

I'm not saying Brady was on his A+ game and had no flaws this year, but The Suggs play was not indicative of any longstanding problem throughout the year. Brady has in effect been strip sacked in the past. He definitely was a bit rusty coming off of the rehab year, but it wasn't an issue, he still played very well considering. If his awareness were actually a terrible problem, he wouldn't have had the lowest sack total of his career while posting the 2nd highest comp % of his career.

Not saying we don't need any help on the interior line, but that's just how I see it. If you watched the games this weekend you'd see Manning, Favre, and even Rivers made a couple of great throws under pressure. Just haven't seen the same out of Brady this year.

I think it's a little bit of rust and a lot of lack of options to throw to. Moss isn't a quick-strike receiver so you don't rely on that as a quick option under pressure. Aside from that really Welker is all he had to go to this season, Aiken can't beat a single one-on-one. I mean his best play of the year was a fluke circus catch while perfectly covered.

 

[emoney_33]

After the first half, what circumstances are you talking about?

The shakiness of the OL, lack of WR depth, inexperienced coordinator, missing last year with the ACL injury, extremely difficult pass defense schedule...

All things considering, the offense played pretty well.

 

[Deus Irae]

No RB should be playing other than on short yardage unless they are a legitimate receiving threat. If you are saying that maroney can't catch, then we have three other rb's who should be playing in fromt of him. Watson is certainly a receiving threat.

What this boild down to is playcalling by Brady and who Brady had as his 5th reveiving option. In various situations that was Aiken, Edelman, Stanback or Baker. Our acting OC, whose expertise is WR coach couldn't coach up Lewis or galloway or use any of these players as our FIFTH receiving threat.

Of course the reality is that Watson and the running backs were all but ignored as Brady focused on Moss and Welker.

I'm not saying that Maroney can't catch. I'm not saying that Watson can't catch. I'm not saying that Baker can't catch (although I think his days as a receiving threat away from the goal line are behind him). I'm not saying that Morris can't catch. I'm not saying that Taylor can't catch.

I am saying that Brady didn't generally look to those players as anything more than last choice outlets. You can question how much of that was on Brady, how much was on talent and how much was on scheme, and we'll only learn the answer to that when a history of the recent years is made public. However, the reality is that, regardless of the reasons behind the actions, Brady's not been focusing on his running backs not named Faulk since at least 2006, and he's not been focusing on Watson since that same season.

 

[mgteich]

What you seem to saying is that Brady and Josh got Moss and Welker, we had a great 2007 season and haven't recovered from the change in offensive philosophy.

I'm not saying that Maroney can't catch. I'm not saying that Watson can't catch. I'm not saying that Baker can't catch (although I think his days as a receiving threat away from the goal line are behind him). I'm not saying that Morris can't catch. I'm not saying that Taylor can't catch.

I am saying that Brady didn't generally look to those players as anything more than last choice outlets. You can question how much of that was on Brady, how much was on talent and how much was on scheme, and we'll only learn the answer to that when a history of the recent years is made public. However, the reality is that, regardless of the reasons behind the actions, Brady's not been focusing on his running backs not named Faulk since at least 2006, and he's not been focusing on Watson since that same season.

 

[Deus Irae]

What you seem to saying is that Brady and Josh got Moss and Welker, we had a great 2007 season and haven't recovered from the change in offensive philosophy.

That's not what I'm saying at all. That 2007 offense was the greatest in the history of the NFL. The 2008 offense is irrelevant, because it was with a different QB. Fair comparisons can only be made about 2 seasons, and anyone who talks about "haven't recovered" given all the circumstantial changes from 2007 to 2009 is just looking for a scapegoat rather than really looking for answers.

 

[BradyManny]

Manning runs timing patterns and throws the football to 5 legitimate receivers on any and all downs (3 WRS, a TE and a RB).

Brady runs read routes, and chooses to focus on just 2 receivers, except on 3rd down where he focuses on 3 receviers (2 WRs and a RB). There's no question that the Patriots were very weak at WR this season. The schemes and OL, however, were not the problem.

Also, Brady wasn't Brady this season, with regards to his work in the pocket, as the Suggs strip sack in the Baltimore playoff game demonstrated.

Brady should have stepped up on that play - but it wasn't like Light was in control and letting Suggs up field to create the pocket, he got beat from the snap and never recovered. Even if Brady steps up, Suggs is still going to catch him, since he beat Light. Which goes to the point about the OL.

As for Brady not being Brady...his numbers were the second best of his career, and defense-adjusted, they were the best in the league. Aside from the Ravens game specifically, I'm not sure how much blame I put on Brady.

As for Brady focusing on 2 receivers. Why wouldn't he with the weapons we have? His #s when throwing to someone not named Welker or Moss were poor, and only had completions about 50% of the time. Do you think that has to do with Brady, or the other skill players? I'm leaning towards the latter. Sam Aiken is not a suitable #3. Ben Watson is a talented, albeit limited Tight End. Chris Baker was needed more in pass protection. Edelman was the lone bright spot, but he was battling through an arm injury all year.

If the Patriots surround Brady with legitimate offensive weapons - and I'm not talking Moss or Welker here, I think guys like Branch, Givens, Patten, Brown are more than good enough - than this offense will be fine. Just look at the Saints and Colts, they kill you because they have multiple options. If you're #2 outside receiver cannot get any separation whatsoever, ie, Sam Aiken, no QB is going to throw at him or look his way.

 

[emoney_33]

If you're #2 outside receiver cannot get any separation whatsoever, ie, Sam Aiken, no QB is going to throw at him or look his way.

It really is as -simple- as that. Get this team some WR depth (specifically a #2 wideout) and stop having to rely on only 2 options. They really need to hit on WRs this offseason.

 

[BradyManny]

It really is as -simple- as that. Get this team some WR depth (specifically a #2 wideout) and stop having to rely on only 2 options. They really need to hit on WRs this offseason.

Agreed - they need immediate impact offensive weapons, whether via free agency or the draft. I agree free agency is important, but I'd also like to see the Pats hit on at least one offensive guy in the mold of Harvin, Chris Johnson, Ray Rice type player - a speedy game breaker and/or a receiver in the likes of Eddie Royal, Donnie Avery.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brady should have stepped up on that play - but it wasn't like Light was in control and letting Suggs up field to create the pocket, he got beat from the snap and never recovered. Even if Brady steps up, Suggs is still going to catch him, since he beat Light. Which goes to the point about the OL.

If Brady steps up, Suggs gets ridden out of the play. It happens all the time in the NFL.

As for Brady not being Brady...his numbers were the second best of his career, and defense-adjusted, they were the best in the league. Aside from the Ravens game specifically, I'm not sure how much blame I put on Brady.

Numbers are deceiving and the "defense-adjusted" is a crock.

As for Brady focusing on 2 receivers. Why wouldn't he with the weapons we have? His #s when throwing to someone not named Welker or Moss were poor, and only had completions about 50% of the time. Do you think that has to do with Brady, or the other skill players? I'm leaning towards the latter. Sam Aiken is not a suitable #3. Ben Watson is a talented, albeit limited Tight End. Chris Baker was needed more in pass protection. Edelman was the lone bright spot, but he was battling through an arm injury all year.

His avoidance of the running backs not named Faulk was criminal. His lack of throws to tight ends was partly due to the tight ends not going out in patterns, partly due to the tight ends not always getting open, and partly due to his development of tunnel vision. I agree that the failure of the front office with regards to a #3 receiver was an enormous part of the problem for the offense.

If the Patriots surround Brady with legitimate offensive weapons - and I'm not talking Moss or Welker here, I think guys like Branch, Givens, Patten, Brown are more than good enough - than this offense will be fine. Just look at the Saints and Colts, they kill you because they have multiple options. If you're #2 outside receiver cannot get any separation whatsoever, ie, Sam Aiken, no QB is going to throw at him or look his way.

Brady was surrounded with sufficient weapons for you to post "his numbers were the second best of his career, and defense-adjusted, they were the best in the league". You're trying to have it both ways and that simply doesn't wash. Either the numbers are all that matter and there were no problems with the receiving corps, or there were issues regardless of the numbers, and Brady was part of the problem.

 

[emoney_33]

Agreed - they need immediate impact offensive weapons, whether via free agency or the draft. I agree free agency is important, but I'd also like to see the Pats hit on at least one offensive guy in the mold of Harvin, Chris Johnson, Ray Rice type player - a speedy game breaker and/or a receiver in the likes of Eddie Royal, Donnie Avery.

I would love that, and it's been a real question mark for this team drafting offensive players. Their only hit for offensive skill position since Branch/Givens has been Maroney, and that isn't a superstar hit. If only we could have given Chad Jackson a brain :\

 

[BradyManny]

If Brady steps up, Suggs gets ridden out of the play. It happens all the time in the NFL.

Suggs wasn't getting ridden out of any play, Matt Light was - at best - going to have to commit a hold, or at worst - commit manslaughter - to have any attempt of controlling Suggs on that play. Watch it again.

Numbers are deceiving and the "defense-adjusted" is a crock.

Why is defense-adjusted a crock? Drew Brees never got above an 80 rating against the AFCE teams [73, 79 & 59] (except us) and he destroyed the rest of the NFL. Manning has been pretty ordinary against said teams. Phillip Rivers couldn't put points on the board against the Jets. It's been a brutal schedule.

His avoidance of the running backs not named Faulk was criminal. His lack of throws to tight ends was partly due to the tight ends not going out in patterns, partly due to the tight ends not always getting open, and partly due to his development of tunnel vision. I agree that the failure of the front office with regards to a #3 receiver was an enormous part of the problem for the offense.

Are you seeing downfield? Do you know what the progression of his reads is designed to be on a given play? We don't have this information, I can only go by what I see.

Brady was surrounded with sufficient weapons for you to post "his numbers were the second best of his career, and defense-adjusted, they were the best in the league". You're trying to have it both ways and that simply doesn't wash. Either the numbers are all that matter and there were no problems with the receiving corps, or there were issues regardless of the numbers, and Brady was part of the problem.

Yes, his #s were the second best of his career and defense-adjusted, they were best in the league.

But they were still blown away by 2007, a season in which he had a plethora of offensive options. He still has two explosive players in Moss & Welker, and he accrued good #s by looking to those players. Anytime he looked elsewhere, his success was limited.

I don't see the contradiction from my posts. The Patriots are a good offense who faced a tough schedule. They should be a great offense that beats any defense, as they were in 2007 (with the one obvious exception...). All it would take would be one or two more professional wide receivers who can gain separation. You yourself have said as much in other threads.

Let's not make this any more complicated than it has to be - the main problem with this offense is not Brady or Moss, or probably even the much maligned Bill O Brien - if it had an actual NFL wide receiver lining up across from Moss, defenses would play it differently, everyone would get open more easily, and the offensive line would be less of an issue. I'm not denying this offense has flaws - but one simple move, getting a good 3rd wideout - solves so many issues.

 

[emoney_33]

His avoidance of the running backs not named Faulk was criminal.

I agree that the failure of the front office with regards to a #3 receiver was an enormous part of the problem for the offense.

So many "enormous" parts of the problems. You act as if this offense was 2006-anemic.

Brady was surrounded with sufficient weapons for you to post "his numbers were the second best of his career, and defense-adjusted, they were the best in the league". You're trying to have it both ways and that simply doesn't wash. Either the numbers are all that matter and there were no problems with the receiving corps, or there were issues regardless of the numbers, and Brady was part of the problem.

This makes no sense. The fact is he lacked any weapons outside of Moss/Welker, and even with that limitation put up good numbers. You claim he developed "tunnel vision" which hurt the team, and you also claim that he held on to the ball too long all year and wasn't pocket aware. Yet he had the 2nd highest comp % of his career, with the LOWEST sack total of his career. Even if you discount the FACT that he had a very difficult pass-defense schedule, that does nothing to take away from the fact that you're analysis is flawed.

But since you are ignoring me you will never see the real facts, ignorance is bliss, someone set him straight.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

you have to blame scarnecchia and belichick for the oline. they simply did not want to upgrade after that $$$ kicking by the giants a few years ago. either these two think that they can solve the oline problems by themselves without acquiring more talent or they are just stupid and stubborn.

 

[emoney_33]

you have to blame scarnecchia and belichick for the oline. they simply did not want to upgrade after that $$$ kicking by the giants a few years ago. either these two think that they can solve the oline problems by themselves without acquiring more talent or they are just stupid and stubborn.

1 game out of 19 means you overhaul the OL? I am so glad that this knee-jerk stuff is relegated to forums and not the front office of the team I root for.

 

[Deus Irae]

Suggs wasn't getting ridden out of any play, Matt Light was - at best - going to have to commit a hold, or at worst - commit manslaughter - to have any attempt of controlling Suggs on that play. Watch it again.

I watched it several times. Suggs was going to end up going right by if Brady had stepped up, and Light would have been able to finish Suggs off at that point. The irony here is that Light, for all the complaints this year, was matched up 1-on-1 against the best pass rusher for the Ravens, which means that the team was either helping Vollmer or had the tight end out in the pattern (I never bothered looking at the right side of the line on that play, since it was irrelevant in the replays for determining what happened regarding Light/Brady on the sack), which is 2 things that make for other very interesting threads.

Why is defense-adjusted a crock? Drew Brees never got above an 80 rating against the AFCE teams [73, 79 & 59] (except us) and he destroyed the rest of the NFL. Manning has been pretty ordinary against said teams. Phillip Rivers couldn't put points on the board against the Jets. It's been a brutal schedule.

Well, for one thing, the Patriots didn't face a brutal schedule at all. I'll leave it at that.

Are you seeing downfield? Do you know what the progression of his reads is designed to be on a given play? We don't have this information, I can only go by what I see.

How far downfield do you think I have to see in order to discover that Maroney/Morris/Taylor is wide open? As for his progressions, that's about his focus, isn't it?

He still has two explosive players in Moss & Welker, and he accrued good #s by looking to those players. Anytime he looked elsewhere, his success was limited.

Watson had a catch rate of right around 70%. Moss wishes for that sort of success.

I don't see the contradiction from my posts. The Patriots are a good offense who faced a tough schedule. They should be a great offense that beats any defense, as they were in 2007 (with the one obvious exception...). All it would take would be one or two more professional wide receivers who can gain separation. You yourself have said as much in other threads.

Let's not make this any more complicated than it has to be - the main problem with this offense is not Brady or Moss, or probably even the much maligned Bill O Brien - if it had an actual NFL wide receiver lining up across from Moss, defenses would play it differently, everyone would get open more easily, and the offensive line would be less of an issue. I'm not denying this offense has flaws - but one simple move, getting a good 3rd wideout - solves so many issues.

I agree on the receiver which, as you've noted, I've stated many times. However, blaming the line and the scheme while giving a pass to Brady is simply not correct. Brady was a significant part of the problem this year, with his numbers masking the problem in the eyes of the people who aren't looking deeper than that. The Baltimore game was a perfect example of that, with poor throws, poor pocket play, a refusal to run when the opportunity was there, etc....

 

[SHOWTIME15]

1 game out of 19 means you overhaul the OL? I am so glad that this knee-jerk stuff is relegated to forums and not the front office of the team I root for.

did you see how dominant the jets oline was yesterday? that's the kind of oline you need to win, not this country boy oline bs that the pats have. there is a reason why our running game sucks. and part of the reason why brady struggled this year is because he's not getting time. he is being rushed into making bad decisions. we simply cannot continue to have the same oline year after year.

light- he's been with the team since 2001. he played well but his time has come. maybe another year but major upgrade needed here.

koppen- still only 30 but not that athletic

kaczur - lol

neal - could be gone after this year.

mankins- only 27. should keep around.

vollmer - keep

replacements should be made at center, LT, and guard (neal's spot). they just need to have nastier players up front. the line has no attitude anymore.

 

[emoney_33]

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010011001/2009/POST18/ravens@patriots/recap/full-story#tab:watch

starting at 0:36... ahh it's all Brady's fault, that bum!