Bill Belichick's problems

[Michigan Dave]

You say there aren't teams the Pats can't beat that are going to be in the playoffs. I think you're overlooking the one team that has caused the Pats the most pain and suffering this year...Themselves. That's the team who beat them in Denver last year, not the Broncos. Due to all the fumbles, penalties and lack of identity or vision this year, it will likely be the Pats that knock themselves out of the playoffs and not Indy, Baltimore, San Diego, et al.

No, that's exactly what I'm saying. We are capable of winning games against every team in this league. However, we are also capable of losing those games. If we go out and play our best game, I don't think this team can be beat. However, that seems to be a tall task of late. You are correct- mistakes and atypical mental errors have been plaguing this team lately. They have 3 games to get it together before it can really hurt.

 

[Fogbuster]

As great as BB is -- and I rate him up there among the top five that I've seen over the past 30+ years -- he has now revealed his one blind spot: when he lost Charlie Weis he thought he could do it alone (last year), and when that didn't work, he thought he could do it with a kid (Daniels) and that has been a pitiful mistake.

He's got basically the same mix of talent pool as he had in 2001 and the other SB runs -- some might even argue today's talent is even better -- but the fire of innovation and depth of understanding of the offense is flashing red flags of dire emergency and screaming like a fire truck.

Daniels may be a very decent young guy -- probably great as a backs and wide-outs and/or qb coach -- but as an OC I have to agree: he is in way over his head. Oh, for a Mike Marz or the like right now!

BB knows defense. He's the best there is at it, imo. He can take guys off the street and still create a stopper defense that can win Superbowls. But his head just does not work as creatively on the offensive side of the ball, and for that he needs world-class help.

By not seeing his own short-coming for now going on two solid years, the Patriots will only suffer more needless embarrassment. Such a pity. The Pats have the goods to go all the way -- as much as they had in the three previous runs -- but without an innovative, savvy, fast-to-adjust guy at the helm of the offense, teams like Denver, Miami, and now even the Jets and Indianapolis, are making life unnecessarily miserable for the Pats.

Ah-h, what could have been this year ...

 

[PATSNUTme]

No, that's exactly what I'm saying. We are capable of winning games against every team in this league. However, we are also capable of losing those games. If we go out and play our best game, I don't think this team can be beat. However, that seems to be a tall task of late. You are correct- mistakes and atypical mental errors have been plaguing this team lately. They have 3 games to get it together before it can really hurt.

Sometimes teams get into a rut and never get out of it no mattter how hard they work and no matter if they recongnize the problems.

Sometime a team who works at it can snap out of that rut quickly and play better than they have ever played before. I've seen it and I'm sure you and others have. It's just one of those things that happen in sports, not just football.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

No, that's exactly what I'm saying. We are capable of winning games against every team in this league. However, we are also capable of losing those games. If we go out and play our best game, I don't think this team can be beat.

With the wide receivers we have? Very tall order. As I watched other games this weekend, I was reminded of what good, experienced WRs look like. They run good routes and get open, they come back to the QB when he's in trouble, they go after and catch the ball aggressively. Some have great speed, or great hands, or both. Maybe the Patriots really expected Branch to be back, but once he was gone, they acted as though WR is not a skill position and got/kept a bunch of placeholders.

 

[RayClay]

, "He who's not busy being born is busy dying." I think right now, BB's approach has several limitations:

Injuries. It's no secret that his approach to football always leaves the Pats with more injuries than other teams. After 5 years, it's more than coincidence that we suffer so many injuries. Perhaps we need a little more finesse and a little less hard hitting so that we can field more talent in any given game.

How's that Finesse approach working for the Colts? This is football. Period.

Nice Dylan quote. Too bad you don't understand what it means. Hold on to McGinest and Vinitraitor for sentiment, overpay Givens and cave in to Branch's extortion and you have the same team.

Are you being born? No, your dying. We're competitive and have a few problems. If we don't win this year, (We have enough players IMO, but lack crispness and direction), we have double picks in almost every round and can fix any problem we perceive. Not many teams can say that.

Being born is painful. Staying pat or panic contracts out of fear=dying.

Hard to see how we can have continuity at OC, when everybody is poaching our coaches. The one coach who was thought to be loyal was a backstabber. I wanted a more experienced OC, but I think he doesn't want to change OC's every few years as they leave. Tough problem, I might bring someone in and make Skippy QB coach or something while he learns.

Remember, just because tour paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.

I have a different Zimmerman theory.

Pump don't work cause the Vandal's took the handle.

 

[BruschiOnTap]

I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to say that Michigan Dave is one of my favorite reads on this site.

Not a big fan of the McDaniels playcalling overall, but... hear hear!

 

[Michigan Dave]

Sometimes teams get into a rut and never get out of it no mattter how hard they work and no matter if they recongnize the problems.

Sometime a team who works at it can snap out of that rut quickly and play better than they have ever played before. I've seen it and I'm sure you and others have. It's just one of those things that happen in sports, not just football.

You're right. It's hit and miss. I tend to err on the side of personnel in these times- and I trust Tommy to keep at it until they work through this. They may never achieve "perfection", but we just need "decent" at this point. The team just looks like they are going through the motions offensively. I'm not certain what to attribute that to. We've seen what they can do (Minnesota/Cincinnati), and I think it's not a stretch to expect a level of play close to that as the season winds down. We're not asking for them to go out and score 40 points a game. Hell, I think even 21 would do it.

We'll see what happens this weekend. I'm interested in the way they attack this game.

 

[Michigan Dave]

With the wide receivers we have? Very tall order. As I watched other games this weekend, I was reminded of what good, experienced WRs look like. They run good routes and get open, they come back to the QB when he's in trouble, they go after and catch the ball aggressively. Some have great speed, or great hands, or both. Maybe the Patriots really expected Branch to be back, but once he was gone, they acted as though WR is not a skill position and got/kept a bunch of placeholders.

Yes. I think WR is a very overrated position. You don't need a guy to be running all alone down the sidelines to make a good play. What our problem seems to be (and again, I haven't had the benefit of seeing all of the routes downfield) is that our passing tree is running guys into coverage. Say we're running the bunch right formation (which we run pretty often- 3 WR/TE on the right, up close). In a formation like that, you'd want to use misdirection to get at least one guy pretty open, preferably in the flat, or with a TE coming across 10 yards down the field. Our routes tend to bunch together, or run into the coverage in this situation. On our longer, "timing" routes, Brady seems to have to throw off his back foot, or roll out cutting off 1/2 the field. What I would do is split guys out wider (Watson included), and still run our offense, but allow for a little more athleticism from our wideouts.

Granted, this would require playing Gabriel, which we all know is a huge question mark. I think we have enough talent to win with, I think we just don't have 1 guy Tommy feels comfortable tossing to in coverage and trusting to make a play. Just my $.02

 

[Fanfrom1960]

Yes. I think WR is a very overrated position. You don't need a guy to be running all alone down the sidelines to make a good play. What our problem seems to be (and again, I haven't had the benefit of seeing all of the routes downfield) is that our passing tree is running guys into coverage. Say we're running the bunch right formation (which we run pretty often- 3 WR/TE on the right, up close). In a formation like that, you'd want to use misdirection to get at least one guy pretty open, preferably in the flat, or with a TE coming across 10 yards down the field. Our routes tend to bunch together, or run into the coverage in this situation. On our longer, "timing" routes, Brady seems to have to throw off his back foot, or roll out cutting off 1/2 the field. What I would do is split guys out wider (Watson included), and still run our offense, but allow for a little more athleticism from our wideouts.

Granted, this would require playing Gabriel, which we all know is a huge question mark. I think we have enough talent to win with, I think we just don't have 1 guy Tommy feels comfortable tossing to in coverage and trusting to make a play. Just my $.02

You make good points, but if WR is a very overrated position, why all the fuss over Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison? Backing your argument for a bit, Joe Montana had already won two super bowls before Jerry Rice and John Taylor showed up. But, he had Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon and the Patriots don't have anyone near their ability either. I think WRs are very key, and the Patriots don't seem to have any good ones.

 

[Patters]

So what is the solution you suggest ? He should re adjust,get fiery and emotional and light a fire ?Get friendly with mangini ? not hold secrets anymore ? open all the injury reports ?Will that help the team and we block better against taylor ?

Thats not his style.He is having a bad season just like everyone else.He deserves blame sure for some stuff but to ask him change after winning 3 SB that too this recently is a bit overreacting. He assembled a good coaching staff in cleveland(regardless of their results then) and he will now ..if he finds someone/something will help he will introduce it to his team/system.
All coaches know their team's limitations and iam sure BB knows, just because he doesnt come out and say it doesnt mean he is clueless.He has to act like this in face of adversity and injury because his actions reflect on the team.Imagine him running like nuts on the sideline like tom coughlin ...?

There's not much he can do this season, but next season he needs to bring in some outside talent. Imagine if we had a Mike Martz as our OC. I'm not saying Martz is great, but his approach to the game would challenge BB's thinking. He also needs to rethink our hard-hitting style. Teams are starting to respond in kind and we're getting too many injuries. I've been concerned about that for at least a couple years.

This year, there may be a few things he can do. It's clear the team is not responding well to all his efforts. Despite his announced plan of focusing on basics and reducing mistakes, the team still makes too many mistakes. So, he has to try a different approach, and I'm sure he will.

At this point, my guess is that he's doing what he can to field a healthy team for the playoffs. He knows we realistically only need to win one game to get into the postseason, so he's probably willing to risk another loss if it means giving a player like Maroney an extra week or two to recover. I have no doubt that BB will do what he can to prepare this team for the postseason, but in the long run, I think he needs to build a brain trust and I think he needs to revisit his system to find a way to reduce injuries.

 

[Michigan Dave]

You make good points, but if WR is a very overrated position, why all the fuss over Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison? Backing your argument for a bit, Joe Montana had already won two super bowls before Jerry Rice and John Taylor showed up. But, he had Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon and the Patriots don't have anyone near their ability either. I think WRs are very key, and the Patriots don't seem to have any good ones.

Why the fuss? Because WR is a glamour position, plain and simple. It's a luxury to have a stable of good WRs, that's certain. However, OL, QB, and RB are much more important to an offense, and you can make do without a top-notch WR. I think a good system will make an average WR great, but a great WR cannot make a average system look good. The bottom line is that if you run the ball well, and block up front, any professional receiver will make plays. That is why we are struggling. We can't block, giving our QB little to no time, and our running game is inconsistent, and misused. If we fix those, I guarantee we won't be complaining about our receivers.

 

[Patters]

How's that Finesse approach working for the Colts? This is football. Period.

The Colts appear to be doing better than we are the last two years. I don't think we should change the whole personality of the team, but maybe a little finesse can prevent an injury or two.

Nice Dylan quote. Too bad you don't understand what it means. Hold on to McGinest and Vinitraitor for sentiment, overpay Givens and cave in to Branch's extortion and you have the same team.

McGinest, as much as I like him, was ready to go, but you can't say the same about Viniateri and Branch. Both of those players even now would be assets to our team.

Are you being born? No, your dying. We're competitive and have a few problems. If we don't win this year, (We have enough players IMO, but lack crispness and direction), we have double picks in almost every round and can fix any problem we perceive. Not many teams can say that.

I never said BB is doing nothing right, but the league is extremely competitive and for the last 5 years, teams have been very focused on either mimicking BB or defeating his method. They've made some progress, and we need to change. Just because something worked 5 years ago, doesn't mean it still works as well today. Yes, we are very well positioned for the post season, but obviously we don't always do such a hot job.

Being born is painful. Staying pat or panic contracts out of fear=dying. Hard to see how we can have continuity at OC, when everybody is poaching our coaches. The one coach who was thought to be loyal was a backstabber. I wanted a more experienced OC, but I think he doesn't want to change OC's every few years as they leave. Tough problem, I might bring someone in and make Skippy QB coach or something while he learns.

I think the most important thing is that he brings in people to challenge his thinking, propose new ideas not only to play calling but preparation, training, and conditioning, too.

Pump don't work cause the Vandal's took the handle.

Well, maybe BB should be in the basement mixing up the medicine.

 

[carolinatony]

We have been a changing team the last few seasons losing a lot of coaches and players that helped us win multiple SB's yet we are still winning.
Name me another coach who could do this?

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

We have been a changing team the last few seasons losing a lot of coaches and players that helped us win multiple SB's yet we are still winning.
Name me another coach who could do this?

Bill Walsh???

 

[Mike the Brit]

Patters:

I'm not allergic to "psychobabble" like some. On the contrary, I think that, given how much talent there is on NFL teams, coaching and the psychology of the team can make a huge difference and it's something I look for insight into on this board.

What's more, I think that you make a valid point about BB's preferences for promoting from within. But there are some points in the other direction. First, BB has been excellent at going outside the organisation for new ideas. Think of the brains-picking he used to do with Saban and now, more recently, with Urban Meyer. I bet that there are other discussion partners that we don't know about too. Nor should we assume from the fact that Belichick is surrounded by younger guys that he just wants "yes-men". The Perfidious Penguin was very young but he's on record for having stood up to Belichick quite forcefully -- and, we have to admit, he's doing a good job for the Jets.

Going outside the organisation isn't all that easy either, by the way -- how is it working out for Gibbs, Saunders and Williams?

I don't know if Belichick is coaching as well as he can this season; I don't know if he has become distracted by personal matters. Perhaps he has. But I'm not yet convinced by your argument.

 

[Patters]

Mike the Brit, for five years teams have been committed to defeating the Pats. A victory over the Pats is still a good consolation prize even for a team that's not playoff bound. With all that study put into BB's system, it's likely that teams have found ways to build a team that can defeat the Pats or have identified weaknesses that can be exploited. I think one weakness that has been identified is that the Pats can be out-hustled. That's a problem of motivation to some degree.

BB has done more than anyone in my opinion to turn football into a cerebral game more like chess. I think he's not as good as predicting what moves our opponents will make as he once was (because they are getting better at playing his game), and the only cure for that is to bring in outside people who have experience in different systems. You are right, though, perhaps he is doing that.

At any rate, BB's system I think needs a really good brain trust. I also think that the ideal combination was BB's intellect, Brady's charisma, and Weis enthusiasm. Brady seems a little less charismatic this year and their is noone like Weis. I think motivational speeches are like flattery. Of course, people see through them, but it still works. Sometimes I think playing football for BB is like a day at the office, which is probably not best.

 

[psychoPat]

You say there aren't teams the Pats can't beat that are going to be in the playoffs. I think you're overlooking the one team that has caused the Pats the most pain and suffering this year...Themselves. That's the team who beat them in Denver last year, not the Broncos. Due to all the fumbles, penalties and lack of identity or vision this year, it will likely be the Pats that knock themselves out of the playoffs and not Indy, Baltimore, San Diego, et al.

What a luminous thread !

I happen to think what oldskool says, here, is irrebutable.
Were it not for our own procedure penalties ... phantom PI and roughing penalties ...
the absence of comparable calls against the opponent ... and our own blinkin' turnovers!
would we even be having this deep, studied discussion?

We lose - when we DO lose - because of self-mutilating failures to execute ...
not because of the HC's psychological shortcomings.

 

[SVN]

I think motivational speeches are like flattery. Of course, people see through them, but it still works. Sometimes I think playing football for BB is like a day at the office, which is probably not best.

on the contrary in past SB teams i have heard and read many players say that BB gave a reallly good speech to fire them up like the game @pitt.. Just because his public personality doesnt reflect it ..doesnt mean he doesnt do it...the whole no respect card was BB's invention which has been carried on by lawyer milloy to bruschi to rodney...BB's public image is nothing to go by....he is dull because he knows the media asks the same stuff...ask him a good football related topic you can get him fiery... he knows when to push the buttons and when to lay off

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

As great as BB is -- and I rate him up there among the top five that I've seen over the past 30+ years -- he has now revealed his one blind spot: when he lost Charlie Weis he thought he could do it alone (last year), and when that didn't work, he thought he could do it with a kid (Daniels) and that has been a pitiful mistake.

He's got basically the same mix of talent pool as he had in 2001 and the other SB runs -- some might even argue today's talent is even better -- but the fire of innovation and depth of understanding of the offense is flashing red flags of dire emergency and screaming like a fire truck.

Daniels may be a very decent young guy -- probably great as a backs and wide-outs and/or qb coach -- but as an OC I have to agree: he is in way over his head. Oh, for a Mike Marz or the like right now!

BB knows defense. He's the best there is at it, imo. He can take guys off the street and still create a stopper defense that can win Superbowls. But his head just does not work as creatively on the offensive side of the ball, and for that he needs world-class help.

By not seeing his own short-coming for now going on two solid years, the Patriots will only suffer more needless embarrassment. Such a pity. The Pats have the goods to go all the way -- as much as they had in the three previous runs -- but without an innovative, savvy, fast-to-adjust guy at the helm of the offense, teams like Denver, Miami, and now even the Jets and Indianapolis, are making life unnecessarily miserable for the Pats.

Ah-h, what could have been this year ...

Let's assume McDaniels was OC in spirit last season before becoming OC in name this year, that makes him a second year man. At what point do you pull the plug on a new project? Based on performance to date, his work has been part of getting a team with numerous injuries and high profile defections into the playoffs both seasons. That isn't too shabby.

Learning to be as unpredictable as Charlie Weis probably isn't an overnight evolution. Charlie spent years with Parcells who likes to call his own plays, keeping his OC as insurance. Josh had a couple season with Charlie, I'd say this isn't the same as a graduate course under Parcells.

BB is developing a new talent, the same way he developed Tommy who is doing more each year, I choose to trust him with this - Mangini wasn't any Romeo last season, but he isn't too shabby as a HC, seems BB did know there was talent to be developed, if in that case to his chagrin.

Josh is being evaluated by a better football teacher and supervisor then any on this board, I'll leave that to him.

 

[Pats726]

Injuries. It's no secret that his approach to football always leaves the Pats with more injuries than other teams. After 5 years, it's more than coincidence that we suffer so many injuries. Perhaps we need a little more finesse and a little less hard hitting so that we can field more talent in any given game.

OK..th einjuries ARE growing...but are the injuries this year as vad as 04 or 05?? I am noy sure....last year WAS the worst..this yearI don't think they were as bad as last year...maybe more between 03 and 04... But what about 02? THAT was a year with feew injuries...