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Are the Patriots still rebuilding?


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Can the Pats afford to re-sign Welker...BJGE and also sign Brandon Lloyd ?

Draft a DB and OLB :rocker:

BJGE is affordable- he isn't a pro-bowler. Welker is another question, a very big question. Frankly, with the stats he's putting up, he deserves a monster contract.
 
1) We are always re-tooling.

2) 14-2 and 13-3 is truly extraordinary. To think that we have had these records in years when the defense has been considered by so may to be a bunch of scrubs is truly remarkable.

3) While we are always re-tooling, replacing the ENTIRE defense except one player is a bit more than re-tooling. We have had a complete makeover. I am not sure why we think that the job will be completed in this coming off-season. There are lots of holes, some of which may be filled by re-signing Carter, Anderson and Warren.

I have looked at the past 2 years as rebuilding years for the Patriots. The fact that they went 14-2 last year and 13-3 and in the Super bowl is remarkable, IMO.

Think about the Patriots roster in 2007. The only defensive player that played on the 18-1 team is Big Vince. all other players are new to the team. Think about about the players that were on the D in the 2007 season, Rodney, Tedy, Seymour, Warren, Zant, Vrable, and several more that have either retired or are now with other teams,or just out of football.

Yet here they are in The Super Bowl with a 50-50 chance to win going in. This is why I have really enjoyed the past 2 years. Yes, I will be very disappointed if they lose in the SB, and elated if they win.

This next off season I expect the rebuilding on D to be finished with the signing of solid FA's on the D, don't have to be the big names, and getting one or 2 younger players in the draft. With TFB having 3 more years of playing at high level and all the good young players now on the roster on offense, we have noting but good times to look forward to for the foreseeable future.

Agree? Disagree?
 
I think we're close to being REALLY good again and I expect an interesting offseason, I could see another Colvin type signing if someone is willing to take a little less for some hate and T-Shirts. Of course Mario Williams would be the perfect guy but 31 other teams probably feel the same way.

dude.png
 
The team has several problem areas on the defensive side of the ball that need to be addressed, and they need to deal with the WR and C positions on offense (and possibly RG, depending upon Cannon's situation).

Whether you call that rebuilding, retooling or tweaking is up to you.
 
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In my opinion we are in the last year of a three year rebuilding period which has been more successfull in terms of wins than any program can boast of. the locker room had to be rebuilt both in terms of talent and age but most imporntly in terms of attitude. A cancer had set in and BB was swift and decicive about cutting it out and still remained competitive while doing so. Many may feel large scale changes are still needed but I see few, and not much more than this upcoming draft can finish. My upcomeing wish list:

27) WR, Mohamed Sanu
32) DE, Billy Winn
48) CB, Chase Minnifield
64) FS/SS, Markelle Martin
96) C, Michael Brewster
127) DE/OLB Jake Bequette

And possibly a Vet. FA OLB to wrap the package.
We still have potential returning from the IR list.
 
Need I remind some here that Gronk was considered "injury prone". Ras I could be a fit for the next 10 years after this year, no one knows. None of his injuries have been the same- just bad luck.

People should stop whining and get some info before you post this stuff. He's really "sticking it to us", another Super Bowl trip. Jets fans would kill to have it stuck to them like BB has to us.:eek:
You really have high hopes for Ras IR Dowling. I hope he satisfies you.
 
The Patriots defensive backfield and OLB position is still a disaster, .

Way too harsh. It needs improvement but it is not a disaster. Chung was out 1/2 the year. DMc has a soph slump but Arrington led the league in INTs, DMc is was a pro bowler last year who has the talent to be either a CB or FS and Chung is fine when he played. I would agree that a high pick should be spent on another safety who can make plays. Keep in mind Father Dowling is playing next year and Moore looks like the future at nickel. Their pass defense numbers were poor but they were 2nd in the league in INTs. Not too shabby.


they have made it to the superbowl because of an excellent offense headed by a HOF QB and great coaching. Do not be fooled, the Patriots defense is not that good and the Patriots offense still is in need of a physical WR that can get down the field..

My god. The team averaged 32ppg and 36 in their last 11 games.

If you remove Brady and BB and replace them with mediocrity or even "good" the Patriots are probably a little better than the 2011 Colts.

What is your point Mr. Negative?
 
The team has several problem areas on the defensive side of the ball that need to be addressed, and they need to deal with the WR and C positions on offense (and possibly RG, depending upon Cannon's situation).

Whether you call that rebuilding, retooling or tweaking is up to you.

Upgrading and reloading.
 
So its all Bill and Brady?

Team went 11-5 under Cassel? It think its scheme, culture, ownership, coaching....everything. Its not as if Brady is throwing to Caldwell and Gaffney not. He is throwing to awesome TEs and one of the best slot receivers in the NFL.

The D only has Vince back but it was awful for 90% of the season as well. Its a huge work in process but I think its much better with Chung and Spikes back and will be even better next year if the big corner Dowling can stay healthy. I like the additions of Anderson and Carter too and Ninko has really stepped up huge!!!

Pats played both western divisions that year- it was an extraordinarily easy schedule, and when they played good teams they typically lost. If Brady had been healthy in 2008, I honestly think there's about a 50% chance that they would have gone 16-0 again.
 
BJGE is affordable- he isn't a pro-bowler. Welker is another question, a very big question. Frankly, with the stats he's putting up, he deserves a monster contract.

I believe that it was noted on another thread that Wes and his fiancee' had settled in the Foxboro area. I hope that means they have the framework for an agreement worked out and they just have to work out details to re-sign him for 4 or 5 more years :rocker:

If they can get BJGE at a reasonable price, it would be nice.

Anyone know what Lloyd's price might be? Would be nice to grab someone like him if Josh thinks he'd fit in.
 
You never need to rebuild with a HOF QB... not rebuilding in the normal sense anyway.
 
One open question is whether the term "rebuilding" must be about the team, or whether the term can be used for the offense or for the defense.

Taking a defense and replacing all but one is certainly "rebuilding a defense".


You never need to rebuild with a HOF QB... not rebuilding in the normal sense anyway.
 
Let's put McCourty somewhere. Let's try FS as you suggest. IF we decide to bring back Carter and Anderson, then we have this year's defense with a year's more experience.


2012 3-4 Defense

Starting DEs: Deaderick, ?????
Starting NT: Wilfork
Starting OLBs: Ninkovich, ?????
Starting ILBs: Mayo, Spikes
Starting CBs: Any of Mccourty, Arrington, Dowling, or Moore
Starting SS: Chung
Starting FS:?????-Mccourty-?????


Yeah, the defense is still rebuilding. Going into 2012 we really don't know who the starting CBs will be, a starting DE is needed, a starting OLB, and who the hell will play FS.

I also don't know where Carter or Anderson could fit in the 3-4.
 
The culture of the team, Brady, and BB make it really hard to apply "rebuilding year" in the normal sense. I think we pat ourselves on the back, in a way, talking about rebuilding years. The usual understanding is something like what you do after a really really crap year. Whatever we think on the message board, losing in the first round of the playoffs is not a crap year. 4-12 is a crap year. 6-10 is a crap year. Not "OMG we lost in the first round."

So since about 2001, we've been crap-year proof - and that's a BB/Brady thing, and in the BB part I include the constant auditioning, adding, and mercilessly pruning the individual parts that each year must make up the team.

Now, turning over the entire defense in 4 years without missing the playoffs is pretty amazing, I will accept that. But you've got this "floor" established that keeps you away from the "rebuilding year" reality.

I think the D is better than its detractors say, and not as good as we feel it is after the Ravens game. Same level of effort and performance, against a high-octane offense like NO and GB? Very, very different feeling about how good they are (in season or post-season.) But we'll probably be toasting them as this beastly defense after the Gintz game, if all goes well (especially if the O handles their business.)

But to the original point, they're a good enough D to win, given our offense at even a decent level of efficiency. A lot of youth, a lot of upside, a lot of guys that I think will be there for a few years to come. I think we've gone from "um who do we even have anymore?" to the "household names" at many positions, pretty quickly (and not just out of repetition - guys like Ninko are earning their recognition.)

Rebuilding year? Eh, kinda sorta. But you don't say that about 3 straight years. You say it about one "wasted" season, when you go 6-10, but "it's okay." We've been rebuilding the D, but that's a different statement... it's more in line with what others here have said about the constant turnover in the league now.
 
The team has several problem areas on the defensive side of the ball that need to be addressed, and they need to deal with the WR and C positions on offense (and possibly RG, depending upon Cannon's situation).

Whether you call that rebuilding, retooling or tweaking is up to you.



Your post is as correct today as it would have been 1 year ago…hopefully, we won't be saying the same thing 1 year FROM now.
 
Unlike the Cassandra fans and of course the mediots have to produce copy every day, I like to try to step back and have some perspective. The Patriots started to rebuild in earnest, midway through the 2008 season. Prior to that, I think Belichick was patching, to try and eke out another year from his basic SB roster. Witness the trades for Welker, Moss and Adalius and the unseen of idea of using a First Round pick on a short term player like a RB.

But when Brady went down and the oldsters continued to slow, I think he decided he would have to strip the roster down, and start essentially afresh. The Defense was older, so he began there. He even got a nice retirement package for a favorite, Mike Vrable, extracting a promise from Pioli to pay him, and included him in the Cassel trade.

I think he had to choose between youngsters Wilfork and Mankins versus future HOF d-lineman Richard Seymour and let Seymour go, kind of implicitely acknowledging that Richard would not be Richard, or even in the League perhaps, when the Pats were next in the Super bowl competition.

Some have criticized Belichick for drafting players high and then apparently inexplicably giving up on them before they had an opportunity to mature. But Bill can tell the difference between talent, and talent with true grit, and will choose the lesser talented but with grit, every time.

Occasionally he spent on Offensive players, Vollmer, Tate, Price, Vareen Riddley but mostly drafted Defense, until he thought he had found the proper foundation. As you scan the defensive roster you find names like Deaderick, Love, Wright, Pryor, Ninkovitch, Fletcher, Guyton, Arrington, Sanders, Slater, Moore, Brown, that accompany the higher drafted people like McCourty, Chung, Cunningham, Spikes, Meriwether, Wheately, Butler.

Some were discarded even though they can play and are active in the league elsewhere, like Wheatley, Willhite, Butler, Sanders and Meriwether, for perhaps lesser talents but with poise and grit.

There have been fans and critics that were undermining Belichick with the same snide comments that ultimately destroyed both Paul Brown and Don Shula. "...the game has passed him by", or he has "lost it". Or he is "poor as a GM" and should step down, even though he ends up with in effect double drafts every year. He and his teams have made the playoffs for three seasons now; but never really had a Super bowl-winner, quality club. BB may even be a season premature, even now. But here he is. I expect this club will win a Lombardi, with an unexpected lopsided victory.

Belichick is at the height of his genius. Who else could "rebuild" while winning 11, 12, 13 or 14 games a season, fashioning the best or second best record in the league? Most would accept a few 5-11 seasons, but not Bill Belichick.

You haven't seen anything yet. NFL Beware. Wait 'till NEXT year.

Nice commentary; I'll add a couple of thoughts.

1. I have heard Belichick talk about evaluating a player, working with him, and after a while getting a better feel for what his ceiling is. That ceiling is difficult to determine prior to the draft; you know better after that first summer; after one full season you know even more; and after two full years you have a pretty solid foundation on what that ceiling is. It's not absolute by any means, but the point is that the further you go along the better an idea a coach has of how good that player can be.

2. With that additional information based on the additional (post college career) evaluation, BB does something as well if not better than any other NFL coach: he is able to disregard that college pedigree and focus on who gives his team the best chance to win better than probably any other NFL coach. He's not the least bit interested in when Darius Butler was drafted in comparison to Kyle Arrington or Sterling Moore's practice squad history compared to the number of starts Brandon Meriweather or James Sanders have on their resume.

3. Once he has that information that does not mean Belichick gives up on a player. Julian Edelman, this is your ceiling as a wide receiver? Okay, why don't we take your positive talents and put them to good use on the other side of the ball?

4. Belichick may care about his place in history, but he could not care less about whether or not the media approves of specific individual decisions. That gives him a competitive advantage; I am quite sure that many NFL coaches make decisions with second-guessing in the back of their minds, whether it be by their fans, media or owner. How many coaches would have had the balls to make Troy Brown a defensive back, or throw passes to a linebacker on the goal line?
 
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BB thinks outside the box more than your average HC.....guaranteed :cool:
 
Your post is as correct today as it would have been 1 year ago…hopefully, we won't be saying the same thing 1 year FROM now.
We should not be saying that 1 year from now, IMO. This coming off season is when I expect the finishing touches to the defense to be made. It is not going to take a lot, 2 or 3 quality (not the big names) FA's and a couple of good draft choices should complete the rebuilding.

The CAP space is there and the draft pick are there to complete the job.
 
What will be the salary cap for 2012, and approx. how much $ will the FO have avail. to spend on re-signings & FA signings after the allotment for the draft picks has been considered?
 
We should not be saying that 1 year from now, IMO. This coming off season is when I expect the finishing touches to the defense to be made. It is not going to take a lot, 2 or 3 quality (not the big names) FA's and a couple of good draft choices should complete the rebuilding.

The CAP space is there and the draft pick are there to complete the job.

This is how I see it as well. They have some needs but the cap space and picks to easily address them. I want Belichik to take the same approach to their defense that he did to WR after the 2006 season.

Re-sign Carter and Anderson. Sign Welker to a new deal and try to bring B. Lloyd in. then add a WR in the draft. Use the draft to address all 3 levels of the defense.
 
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