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Are Pats fans worried about the Jets? Plus more questions from a Jets fan.

Discussion in 'NFL Football Forum' started by eifmp, Jul 28, 2011.

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  1. eifmp

    eifmp Rookie

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    Beisdes the question in the thread title, I do have some inquiries as a Jets fan...if you'll indulge me:

    1) Even with all the bluster, ego, trash talking, and the high amount of hubris Do Pats fans actually respect the coaching ability & defensive mind of Rex Ryan?

    2) Another Rex Ryan question: The Superbowl guarantees he makes every year: Good or bad for the NFL and the Jets?

    3) Mark Sanchez seems to be a quarterback who plays between the range of poor and average during the regular season but then plays between good and very good during the playoffs. He is the opposite of Joe Flacco, who plays between the range of good - very good in the regular season and then plays poor in the post season. But this is just a Jets fan's opinion. Going into his third season, what is your frank opinion on Mark Sanchez and his future as an NFL quarterback?

    4) Was the 28-21 Jets win over the Patriots in the playoffs last season a case of 'the better team won' or was it more a case of 'any given Sunday?'

    5) From the outside looking in The Patriots could do with a pass rusher, especially seeing how they were unable to get to Sanchez in the playoff game? Then they released Tully Banta-Cain, who to me was more of a scheme sack guy than a natural pass rusher. How do you feel about the Patriots not adding a proven a pass rusher yet?
  2. strngplyr

    strngplyr Rookie

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    Topic: Sure. They're a very good team. I also worry about the Colt's, Steeler's, etc.

    1.) Respect, yes, like, no.

    2.) Not really good or bad, it's his style. But when he promises it every season and keeps coming up short (close doesn't cut it, don't care how far you made it) he looks dumb.

    3.) If Sanchez stops putting his team in terrible positions in some regular season games he has potential. Right now I wouldn't want him being anything more than a game manager. The Jets' don't need to score a lot of points when their defense plays as advertised.

    4.) The Jets' played better in that game, sure. I don't know which team truly is better, I'd love to say the Pat's because I'm a fan, but they play completely opposite styles of football. Jets focus on defense, and more recently the Pat's focus on offense. Week 2 the defense won. Week (13?14?) the offense dominated. Playoffs, the defense won again.

    5.) Remains to be seen. BB obviously thinks it isn't an issue or that he can do something with what is already on the roster. Personally, I would like to see Kiwanuka or Babin but any big name is really unlikely I'd say given this teams usual off season business.
  3. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    1) Respect Rex Ryan's coaching ability.

    2) Stupid (for obvious reasons).

    3) Average QB with potential to be slightly above average if his accuracy improves.

    4) Poor execution on the Patriots behalf and a well coached, well executed game plan by the Jets.

    5) There's plenty of in-house additions that should improve the Patriots pass rush. That said I would prefer someone who can do it to a consistently high level opposite Cunningham was brought in.
  4. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I think a lot of us do respect the rivalry, and when it comes down to it we respect the coaching ability of Rex Ryan--just the same way that a lot of NYJ fans actually respect BB (behind closed doors). I think that's an honest and fair assessment.

    I don't think that Rex is winning any fans over in regards to his big mouthed antics, but there does seem to be some sort of crazy method to it--we've all heard about the 'swag,' and there is some truth to that. In the meantime, his guarantees are getting old, so he'd better come through soon--for his sake.

    Sanchez is not that great of a QB..but he is an average enough 'game manager' that he is able to keep them in the game in a competitive fashion. I do not think that many of us pats fans are worried about Sanchez--as a whole, but as he continues to gain experience etc, he does the have the potential to do better. After the NEP defense made him look like the 2nd coming of Marino last January, he has probably earned some respect. However, his 54% completion rate is sub-par, and he has shown a tendency to make some bad judgment errors and turnovers, even more that were flat out dropped last yr. I believe that he is at a 'crossroads' of sorts..he could improve and gain some 'earned' respect, or he could also be exposed for what many feel that he is.

    While the playoff win over the NEP last yr was deserved in many ways due to the great schematic defensive formations of the NYJ etc, there were also many poor execution examples from the Pats too---one of the biggest ones that comes to mind is the botched punt-fake right before the half. That turned a 7-3 close and even game into a momentum shifting 14-3 halftime lead, with a stunning blow right before the half. When it came down to it, the Pats seconday/defense was the biggest culprit, as they allowed Sanchez to look like an all-pro QB out there, so I will give the NYJ their due credit, but a lot of it was also poor execution on the NEP part too. So even though the series between BB and RR was tied at 2-2 before this game, you have to give RR and the NYJ credit, as they have now won 3 of 5. I think this question may not be able to be fully answered, due to the smaller sample size, but I do know that many here did not respect or worry about the NYJ at all prior to the 2009 yr. I think that the rivalry has grown a lot closer, and has intensified. I also credit the team itself getting extremely pumped up the night before, and a great pre-game speech by the guy who 'just wanted the chance to play one more game.' To be honest, I had a bad feeling after hearing so many NYJ players talk about how they'd never been so pumped up for a game before. While some of it was 'any given Sunday,' some is also the resurgence and improvement by the team from NY. Just being honest.

    The 'pass rush' problem that we currently have is somewhat overrated. If you look at the number of sacks from last yr, it was not that much lower that some of our SB years. The defense was likely the youngest in the entire NFL last yr, so the return of 2 key guys on IR + the improvement of 2nd/3rd yr players will combine with some recently great drafting to put the defense in a better position. NONE of us are worried about Tully Banta-Cain, as we all expected him to either be cut at the end of camp, or contribute very little as a backup role player this yr. The thing is, BB doesn't believe that too many can pick up AND exceed his complicated system as a DE/OLB conversion project, as proven by his lack of drafting the position in round one. He takes a different approach of improving the secondary (which he has done), and allowing a learning curve for some of the younger guys at OLB (Ninkovich, Cunningham, and even Moore). He has also preferred to go out and grab a more experienced NFL vet who knows the assignments and nuances better than taking a chance at the risk of wasting a pick on younger guys. That's his system. There is also the infamous thinking that he believes that all 3 levels of the defense compliment each other, so in other words...the pass rush will/should be improved by the front line and back line doing their jobs better and executing properly. That will add to more pressure, and show better results.
  5. TommyD4207

    TommyD4207 Rookie

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    I do not speak for all Patriots fans.

    That's sort of a loaded question. I think Rex Ryan is a tremendous Defensive Coordinator. He's got a good attitude for it, his players like him and they buy into his defense, which is good.

    What I don't think is that he's a good head coach. He's not. He does bonehead things and makes bonehead decisions throughout the course of games. Off the field, setting the creepy foot fetish stuff aside - he's good because he's got the media eating out of his hand. Truly like no one since Parcells that I've seen. However, the constant not only bragging but the disrespect for other opponents will be his undoing.

    He also has a nasty habit of doing things "his way" and not adjusting the way the Jets do things. That makes them predictable.

    You should ask this again at the end of the Jets season after another failure. Once is cute, Second is "well at least we did this!"...after this year, the NY Metro media is going to turn on him. I imagine ESPN will be first.

    It's fine for the NFL because it gets exposure. Whatever.

    It's bad long-term for the Jets, because twice now he's guaranteed SB wins, and twice the Jets have failed. Not "Wow, 2 AFCCGs in a row!" But no Super Bowl = Failure. Again, after this year, it won't be received quite as well as the novelty wears off.

    I think Mark Sanchez could be the worst starting QB in the NFL right now.

    The numbers don't lie. If you take Sanchez' stats from last year, and then line-up the potential starting 32 QBs and compare their numbers from last year - Sanchez would finish dead last in QB Rating, dead last in Completion Percentage, and near the bottom in attempts, completions, yards, TDs, INTs and TD-INT ratio.

    That's pretty much every stat in which you can measure a QB. There are others, but you don't rank this low across all these basic categories if you're not pretty bad.

    His playoff "performance" can be directly associated with the Jets stronger commitment to the run in the playoffs, and far, FAR fewer pass attempts by Sanchez than in the regular season. That's a coach that doesn't trust his QB.

    I think Sanchez has good instincts, he's an athletic kid; but he's immature at best, and dumb as a box o' rocks at worst. He's not smart enough to play the position at an acceptable Pro Level. He's fine as a caretaker QB. Well, sort of fine, he still isn't good enough to leave it at quite that. But were you really worse off with Kellen Clemens? Is there THAT drastic a difference? It's certainly not worth trading what they did to get him. "Mark Sanchez" will be in the opening montage of "Jets 1st Round Picks" during ESPN's coverage of the NFL Draft after "Johnny 'Lam' Jones" and "Roger Vick" within 6 years. I think some idiot team will take a flyer on him and give him another 2 or 3 year deal.

    He'll be on the montage.

    First, that's such a silly cop-out. Why not just ask "Do you respect us now?? Do ya?!?!" My answer is, "not really".

    Second, the Jets came out more conservative. Someone reigned in Rex Ryan during that game. It was smart, the Patriots made a couple of dumb mistakes; spotted the Jets a 2 TD lead, and it was just a matter of not screwing it up from there.

    It was basically the 2007 Jaguars approach to the playoff game vs. the Patriots - except the Jets have a) better players b) a better coach c) got an early interception that seemed to deflate the whole team d) didn't screw up.

    Thanks, ESPN! Are they still old and slow, too?

    This just in: 1) Your line was pretty damn good last year 2) The Patriots were running out Vince Wilfork and 2 street free agents on the line. It's not surprising.

    He's also kinda old and kinda lazy. That's why the Patriots let him go the first time. Also, he had 4 sacks last year.

    The Patriots don't tend to drop $15 mil/yr on a guy just because he's a "name". Is that what you mean by proven?

    I personally think that the answer to your question is either currently on the roster or will be within the next week or so.

    A pass rush would be nice, but a lack of pass rush isn't why the Patriots lost to the Jets. Not effectively stopping the run and good defense by the Jets is why.
  6. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Not effectively stopping the run???

    How about the inability to stop the pass?? They allowed Sanchez a 127+ QB rating day with 3 TD's and O INT's!!!

    The main plays of the game were the TD passes, the sideline pass to Edwards right before the half, and the 60 yd pass to Cotchery when the NEP had just started to re-take the momentum, after cutting the lead to 14-11.

    The run was not that bad, the lack of ability to stop the pass was insanely ridiculous....

    Edit: After looking at the numbers again, the rushing defense was not very good either, as they gave up 17 carries = 76 yards to Greene, and 10 carries = 43 yards to Tomlinson. The lack of proper run stopping likely led to throwing the defense off-balance, so you do have more of a point than I gave you credit for. The bottom line with that game (IMO) was easily the lack of any defensive execution. No, the other things did not help at all, but when you allow the opposing QB a 127+ rating and 3 TD/O INT's, and the rushing defense gives up 4.4 yards per carry, you are pretty screwed. If they had not allowed almost 30 points, the game would have been a lot different.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  7. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here's my pictorial answer to all five of your ridiculous questions...

    [​IMG]

    OG JTSE!!~!!!!
  8. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    You always have to wonder who in the division will be a challenge...

    Each and every year a certain team can go from rags to riches so you can go and worry about the Jets and fall asleep when referring to the Dolphins and Bill, but I wouldn't.

    The Jets ON PAPER seem to be the best team in the division this year or at least close to NEs level,but that doesn't mean anything until they get into the actual season.

    Worry?,not really...If NE plays the game the way the team is coached and most games go the way they are planned, it won't be worrisome.
  9. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    1. Absolutely. As much as we might not want to admit it, Rex Ryan is a very good HC. And its not just his defensive mind, but his ability to get his players to rally around him. One of the biggest requirements of a Head Coach is to have the players buy into what you are selling, and players obviously respond to Rex. You can't argue with his results, so yes I do respect Rex Ryan as a Head Coach, but that doesn't mean I like him.

    2. It means absolutely nothing to the rest of the NFL, but its how he gets the players to buy into him so it does help the Jets.

    3. Objectively, I think he's going to be a pretty good QB for a long time. He won't be an elite QB, but he will be solid and make plays when he needs to. He's still young and learning so we don't know what his ceiling will be, but he isn't has bad as we would like to think. I think in the end he will be around the same level as Eli Manning.

    4. The Jets were the better team on the day. From the very begining you could see the Pats didn't have the same intensity they had earlier in the year when they smashed the Jets, and that was the most concerning thing. I think they tried to go away from what worked for them throughout the year and it hurt them. But saying that you can't take anything away from the Jets, they played well and deserved to win on the day.

    5. I think it would be a HUGE mistake if they don't bring in a pass rusher in FA. It doesn't have to be a huge name, but they need to at least add some competition. I don't know why they have refused to address the OLB position but they need to. When EVERYONE outside of the organization can see it is a big need than I don't think we can be all wrong. I love BB and he is by far the best coach in the NFL, but maybe he is too close to this thing and can't see it. He's not perfect and he makes mistakes, and I think this is one of them. I don't think it makes us bad fans for disagreeing with him, as fans it is what we are suppose to do. We are suppose to question things because it shows we are passionate and keeps them accountable. Hopefully in the next few days they will bring someone in like Kiwanuka or Manny Lawson, hell i'd even take Vernon Gholston at this point to add some competition to the guys on the roster. Just handing spots to guys won't make this team better, they need to earn it, and bringing in some UDFA's for competition isn't enough for me.
  10. eifmp

    eifmp Rookie

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    I agree with your statement about him needing experience. His completion percentage is too low. He did have a lot of dropped potential interceptions. He is inconsistent. But there were signs that the kid is legit: The comebacks last year (albeit versus subpar teams). Game winning drives in many games. You mentioned he played well vs. the Pats, but also did well against Pittsburgh too (for a half). He has great feet and pocket escapability as well. Just needs more experience as you said.
  11. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    1. It's hard not to, he outcoached Belichick in the playoffs

    2. Stupid. Not just because he looks like an ass, but because he puts his team under more pressure than is necessary. They already play in New York.

    3. Until he improves his accuracy significantly, average QB is pretty much his ceiling. If that does improve, he could be awfully good.

    4. A combination of both, plus the less injured team won. It's pretty much impossible to overstate how much the DL injuries (4 of top 7 out) destroyed the Pats' pass rush, but the Jets are the team that made the plays and won the game. That's all that matters. On the flip side, I'm fairly sure that the Pats weren't the best team a couple times in 2001, but that didn't make the Lombardi worth any less.

    5. Proven pass rushers in free agency are an iffy thing; I have no objection to the Pats' reluctance to go and get guys like that. I do wish that they would address the position more aggressively, but I'm more optimistic about Cunningham and Fletcher than most.

    All in all, the Jets don't worry me a ton. Players' coaches always lose control of the locker room eventually; just in the past couple of years, we've seen it happen to Wade Phillips and Norv Turner, and I believe pretty strongly that it will happen to this Jets team. But who knows, I've been wrong about this stuff plenty of times.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  12. Username

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    #95 Jersey

    1. He's a good coach, despite all his bluster and incredibly annoying personality

    2. It's just stupid. Repeating the same empty promise year after year makes him seem like a clown

    3. Good, but not great. And will never be much better than he is now.

    4. Jets were better on the day, Pats just never got going and the Jets took full advantage

    5. I'm slightly concerned about the lack of a pass rusher but not as worried as others. I think Cunningham will have a break out year. I don't think Ninkovich is as bad as others make out, but ideally I'd like to see someone brought in
  13. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1) Respect Rex, but do not like him all that much. Too much bombasity for my likes, but a perfect fit in New York.. if he does not win in NY, the media will squash him like a ****roach.

    2) That is what it is, just a lot of bombasity intended to spur his players on, and what makes good NY press.

    3)Sanchez is ok, but do not see him as being elite.. becoming an adequate game manager.

    4) On any given Sunday, there were uncharacteristic turnovers in that game.

    5)Fans have to remember the BB discovered how to use LT, and built defenses around his strengths so he knows the value of such. IMO BB has not found the type he is looking for, but has stockpiled a lot of very good DB's... have felt for a while now that BB is designing new defensive alignments to capitalize on his strengths. Perhaps am wrong, but BB is too smart to ignore the obvious. He knows what needs to be done and knows how to get there, we may not like it.. but have to remember we were 14-2 last year and were +28 in turnovers.

    Also think that BB is trying to build a team through the draft, by drafting good quality players most of whom were team captains in college. There is a trend here, and taking a crapshoot on a high priced veteran, does not seem to be in the cards. Also have to keep in mind, next year we have 4 of the top 64 draft picks again.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  14. eifmp

    eifmp Rookie

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    That is a bunch of malarkey!

    What about wins-losses? Yes the Jets have a good defense & running game, but Sanchez was directly responsible for all those wins they had last year...except for the Colts playoff game in which he was poor and the Minnesota game. 4 of the 5 games the Jets lost in the regular season was because he played poorly (Baltimore, GB, 45-3, 2nd Miami game). The lone exception being the 38-34 loss to the Bears which he played well. When he plays well...the Jets win...when he doesn't they lose (except the aforementioned Colts playoff game & Minnesota game). This is not 2009 anymore where the Jets are winning most games despite their quarterback. The Jets are winning because of Sanchez. That being said, he does have to play better in the regular season, but to say he could be the worst starting QB in the league is malarkey.

    See, the 'he throws less pass attempts in the post season' argument would've worked for his rookie season...but not last year.

    Sanchez threw 507 times in 15 games during the 2010 season (he sat out the last game vs Buffalo) an average of 33.8 throws per game. Let's up it to 34 throws per game, a nice round number. In the 2010 playoffs he threw 29.66 times per game. Allow me to up that to 30 please, another nice even number. So that "far FAR fewer pass attempts" you're using to illustrate a coach not trusting his QB just not true. His playoff performances in his first two years (6 games) compare favorably to the first 6 games of any NFL QB in the league right now (save Aaron Rogers & Tom Brady). Not to mention it being his only two seasons in the league by the way. Care to tell my how Tom Brady & Aaron Rodgers did during their rookie seasons?

    Really?!?! On the montage? You really think that? Asking if we're worse off with Kellen Clemens is hilarious. The answer is 'yes' by the way. See, this is why I'm asking these questions. I want to get a perspective from a fan of an opposing team who may or may not have seen Sanchez play every game last season. You can't say Sanchez is a 'care taker quarterback', nor say he's 'not smart enough to play the position at an acceptable pro level.' Given how well he performs in the playoffs. I mean, you've seen Sanchez play well in the playoffs vs the elite competition haven't you? So why do you think that he wont be able to play well in the regular season? In my original post I stated he played poor to average in the regular season and good to very good in the post season. We've seen players like Joe Flacco and Matt Cassell choke in the post season after having good regular seasons. They might never be able to transfer that regular season success over to the post season. But you'd take them over Sanchez right? Aren't playoff quarterbacks made legends by their post season performances? No, before you get crazy, I'm not calling Sanchez a legend! I'm saying that post season performances weigh heavier than regular season performances. So give the man his due please.

    How great are you expecting someone who played 1 year of college and 2 years of Pro Football to be entering his third year? Maybe I should've asked that question.
  15. eifmp

    eifmp Rookie

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    'Hope', you mean.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  16. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    His rookie year, he was the second-worst starting QB in the NFL, pretty clearly. He made some real strides last season, though, which is definitely encouraging if you're a Jets fan, especially since sophomore slumps are very common with QBs. He was still a sub-55% passer, though, so until that changes it's hard to take the idea of him being an upper-tier QB seriously.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  17. patman52

    patman52 Rookie

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    it was a need but they went 14-2. See above why the pats were not generating a pass rush. The game turned on a drop ball by crumpler in the end zone and Ben Jarvis not reacting to the hot read. Two plays in
    the first two poss and the rout could have been on again.
  18. eifmp

    eifmp Rookie

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    Based on the bolded...I have a few questions:

    A) What QB stat line for a season is 'elite' in your opinion?

    B) How can someone who's just a game manager have five 4th quarter comebacks in 2 years as a starter and play so well in the playoffs not to mention?

    C) The beginning of Mark Sanchez's career plays like the beginning of another QB's career who had to endure some growing pains in the regular season but flourished in the post season.

    Mark Sanchez's first two years (combined statistics)

    29 TD's - 33 Interceptions - 54.4 completion% -70 QB rating
    -5,735 passing yards

    2nd QB's first two years (combined statistics)

    25 TD's - 29 interceptions - 51.9 completion% - 65.85 QB rating
    -4,261 passing yards

    No one would have looked at the 2nd QB's statistics and had postulated that he'd be a Hall of Famer one day. But that's exactly what he turned out to be.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2011
  19. eifmp

    eifmp Rookie

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    Does the bolded count for nothing? He only started one year in college. You look at all the QB's who've played well as rookies recently....Bradford, Flacco, Ryan, they've all played at least two years of full time college ball. No excuses though. I mention it because he still has room to grow. But you're right about his completion percentage though.
  20. neuronet

    neuronet Rookie

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    #87 Jersey

    I think we will be able to divide discussions here into pre- and post-Haynesworth era.
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