Adam where are you?

[PatsFanInVa]

AV probably a Pat next year

I'll say it once more: if nobody else is getting much over 3 million in a five-year contract, once you amortize the bonuses, I don't think AV will either. The much maligned drunk from Indy went 100% on field goals a couple years ago. Akers is damn good as well. AV is just the best "clutch" kicker in the game, maybe worth a little more based on that alone - but not much more. Let's face it, Akers hasn't had too many chances to win the Super Bowl, because the Eagles only went the one time.

I think Adam knows this (that his value is about what other elite kickers command.) I think he's also floating the idea out there that he is beyond "normal" money to see if he can get abnormal money. I don't think he can.

One more word to any and all who impugn a player's "loyalty" (I just read Bob George's column, and that's what he seems to be saying about Givens):

We as fans should wish these guys the best, and move on. The organization repeatedly talks about what a player is worth to this football team. They freely admit that a given player may be worth more to others. Especially in the case of Vinaterri, where the money can't get that huge, because of his position, you have to just step back and let it all transpire. If the Pats don't match others' money, then they weren't "worth it" to the Pats.

What bugs me about the "loyalty" approach, is that some players actually do restructure or take less to play for the Pats - not a huge amount less, but there are cases where it happens. This is the anomoly, the case you should never see happen, in the current NFL model. Troy Brown did it last year, and look where it got him. Now he's reportedly just a tiny bit bitter, and I would be too. He has done everything for this team, even to the point of playing three ways on occasions - and he's still not even thrown the tiniest bone, in terms of any sort of "loyalty bonus." Well, that's the state of the league. Sometimes, you will lose players. Sometimes, a player will give 120%, and still be judged "not worth the money." It's a business, on both sides. I would never lambast the Pats for being "cheap" (they usually spend to the cap,) or be mad at any player for being an "opportunist," just because it's a generally well paid profession.

Okay, soap box over. And who said there's no "rookie pool" of money for signing draft picks, anyway?

PFnV

 

[PatsSteve1]

I think Adam knows this (that his value is about what other elite kickers command.) I think he's also floating the idea out there that he is beyond "normal" money to see if he can get abnormal money. I don't think he can.

* I blame his wife. She's the one that put in his head that with all the acclaim he's gotten with his clutch FG's since 2001 he'd command a big contract and signing bonus. It's always the woman behind the man.

We as fans should wish these guys the best, and move on.

What bugs me about the "loyalty" approach, is that some players actually do restructure or take less to play for the Pats - not a huge amount less, but there are cases where it happens.

* Every player is different. Some gets roots in the community and/or love the area and idea of playting for the same team and are willing to take that so-called 'home town discount". Some could care less about that stuff. I don't think it makes either type, and those somewhere in the middle, right or wrong. There's really too many narrow minded fans that don't seem to understand that and get all flustered because a player leaves thier team for more money. Teams don't have any loyalty to players either.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Vinateiri earned between $2.1 million and $2.5 million each year in 2003, 2004, and 2005 -- more than the average in either Akers' or Longwell's new contracts.

Mare's total cap number for 2005 was $1.9 million and in 2004 it was $1.58 million.

Here are his salary numbers according the NFLPA:

2001 800000.00
2002 1500000.00
2003 530000.00
2004 660000.00
2005 1050000.00
2006 1400000.00
2007 1500000.00
2008 1500000.00
2009 1500000.00

I don't know the details of his bonus prorations, but based on his 2005 numbers, it would be difficult to see how he exceeds $2 million per year in any of the four upcoming seasons. He has clearly earned less than Vinatieri in each of the last two seasons.



I've stated here several times that I do not believe that. It makes no sense from the Pats standpoint to not prorate a bonus as part of a multi-year deal for Vinatieri. To the best of my knowledge, it would be the first multiyear deal in the history of the Pats with no signing bonus. Not plausible from a cap management standpoint.

hwc - you keep comparing apples and oranges. You can't compare cap (above all because it is a bookeeping function controlled by clubs and has little to do with what a player is actually receiving in a given year) to AAV to salary depending on which player you want to see in a different light. And I'm not sure where the NFLPA salaries you quote on Mare are based on since he signed a 6 year $12M deal in 2001 that only runs through 2006.

Take home pay wise Adam was not highest paid in 2005 - Akers was by simple virtue of his signing bonus alone was half a million more than Adam's franchise tag salary. I believe he took home $3.8M. In 2004 it was Janakowski who pocketed over $3M in signing bonus and salary, and he remains the highest paid by total value at 5/$10.5. Longwell and Akers are currently tied for second at 5/$10 though they got a hair more in bonus money than Sebastian ($3M vs. $2.8M). In 2003 Elam made in the $3M range between his signing bonus and salary while Adam made $2.3M. In 2002 Adam made $1.2M in the first year of that 3 year guaranteed deal. In 2001 he make $500K while Vanderjerk pocketed a $1.5M signing bonus plus salary.

Why do you not believe they would choose to go year to year with Adam as long as that salary doesn't increase? It's like a permanant low risk franchise tag. You can't massage the cap number but the player is locked in at a rate that never increases and you can cut him at will with no dead cap consequence. You seem in another thread to be advocating they franchise Richard indefinitely at a lot tougher salary on the cap based on a nearly identical rationale.

 

[hwc]

MoLewis:

While the one-year payment of a prorated bonus is interesting in some situations, you can't base a comparison of pay between two players with one player getting his signing bonus in that year and the other getting it in another year. You have to prorate the bonus over the life of the contract.

Where it gets a little confusing is when players do simple restructures converting annual salary into prorated bonus. That's why neither the NFLPA salary amounts nor the NFLPA franchise tag amounts always provide a clean comparison. When there are no backloading restructures along the way, the numbers used by the NFLPA in determining franchise tags are very clean, accurate numbers. But, they sometimes get out of whack when a team does repeated simple restructures converting salary along the way into a large bonus proration in the final year or two of the contract.

I cannot find a kicker who has made more money annually over the period 2003-2005 than Adam Vinatieri, when doing an apples to apples comparison. None of the kickers you mention made more than Vinatieri using any logical proration of their bonus money.

The Akers and Longwell contracts pretty much define the top of the market - five years, $10 million, including a $3 signing bonus. You can slice and dice those contracts anyway you want and they still average $2 million a year over the next five years. That is less than the $2.5 million Adam made last year. It is less than the $2.1 million he made in 2004. That is less than the $2.3 million he made in 2003.

The crux of the issue is that Vinatieri is already the highest paid kicker in the NFL. He wants a significant raise that is not supported by the market price. That is why the bidding for his services in free agency has been lukewarm at best. The fact that he is demanding a raise not supported by the current top of the market is why I characterize him as "bustin' the Patriots balls".

This is not that hard to figure out. The answer to the question is a contract over some length of time (probably 3 to 5 years) that averages somewhere between $2 million and $2.5 million per year, with somewhere between 25% to 30% of the contract guaranteed. The longer the length and the higher the pay within that range, the more protection there needs to be for the team, i.e. a structure that allows them to bail out at some point if the guy ruptures his Achilles or gets the yips or starts shanking all his long irons. To be perfectly honest, simply matching the Akers deal would be a fair offer from the Pats, but I suspect they are willing to sprinkle a little sugar on top of that, you know, just to show a little "respect" for a valued member of the team.

 

[hwc]

Why do you not believe they would choose to go year to year with Adam as long as that salary doesn't increase?

Oh, they'd love to. But, nothing I've seen from Bill Belichick suggests that he is delusional. The Pats' contracts generally adhere to the accepted norms of signing bonus structures as they exist in the NFL.

 

[smg93]

* I blame his wife. She's the one that put in his head that with all the acclaim he's gotten with his clutch FG's since 2001 he'd command a big contract and signing bonus. It's always the woman behind the man.

I hate to point this out, but you've been saying hwc is making stuff up. Don't you think you are now?

 

[Miguel]

I don't think the Pats wanted to franchise Vinatieri last year.

It killed them capwise compared to a long-term deal -- in year when they had a double-dip on Brady's proration and Law's dead money hit.

Adam was franchised in February. Brady was extended. It is a REACH to imply that Adam's cap number killed the Pats last year. Look at the transactions that took place AFTER Adam was franchised.

May 4 - Released Keith Traylor. Signed Tom Brady to a new deal keeping him with the Patriots through the 2010 season.
May 2 - Released Matt Phillips.
April 30 - Signed Earl Charles, Rhett Kopp, Michael McGrew, Demarco McNeil, Michael Rogers, and Santonio Thomas.
April 29 - Signed Doug Flutie, DeCori Birmingham, Travis Conway, Kyle Eckel, Robbie Gould, Ryan Krug, Mike Lorenz, Matt Phillips, Andre Torrey, Raymond Ventrone, and Mike Wright.
April 26 - Signed Chad Scott.
April 24 - Drafted Ryan Claridge, James Sanders, Matt Cassell, and Andy Stokes.
April 23 - Drafted Logan Mankins, Ellis Hobbs III, and Nick Kanzur.
April 19 - Signed Wesly Mallard.
April 18 - Jarvis Green signed his RFA tender.
April 15 - David Givens signed his RFA tender.
April 14 - Signed Monty Beisel
April 12 - Adam Vinatieri signed his franchise tender.
April 5 - Signed David Terrell.
March 24 - Re-signed Ethan Kelly.
March 22 - Re-signed Don Davis.
March 15 - Tom Ashworth signed his RFA tender.
March 13 - Signed Tim Dwight to an one-year deal.
March 8 - Stephen Neal signed his RFA tender.
March 7 - Re-signed Patrick Pass.
March 4 - Traded for Duane Starks.
March 1 - Released Troy Brown. Offered RFA tenders to Jarvis Green, David Givens, Tom Ashworth, and Stephen Neal. Signed Brandon Gorin.
February 28 - Released Roman Phifer.
February 25 - Released Tajuan "Ty" Law.
February 14 - Signed Mark Bartosic.


I forgot exactly when the Pats made their offer to Derrick Mason but I am pretty sure that it was in early March. I am at a loss at you can say that Adam's cap number killed the Patriots when they were $1.4 million under the cap on September 1st. What killed the Patriots cap last year was the number of injuries.

Instead, I think the Pats probably offered Adam a competitive top-of-the-market deal last year and he busted their balls then, just like he is doing now. This has really been bubbling for the last four years.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/columns/pasquarelli_len/1352796.html

"The three-year contract that "franchise" free agent Adam Vinatieri signed on Friday does not make him the highest-paid kicker in the league ....
"On a per-year average basis, Vinatieri's contract is worth just shy of $1.8 million annually. That ranks him third among all kickers and punters, trailing just Olindo Mare of Miami ($2 million average) and Tampa Bay's Martin Gramatica ($1.857 million), according to the NFL Players Association salary documents for the position."

Yep, Adam busted the Pats' balls in 2002 by agreeing to the 3rd best deal

 

[Miguel]

I am pretty sure that the Pats couldn't have franchised Adam a 3rd time because that would have required him to be paid like a QB.

That rule started this year as part of the CBA extension.

 

[Miguel]

MoLewis:

While the one-year payment of a prorated bonus is interesting in some situations, you can't base a comparison of pay between two players with one player getting his signing bonus in that year and the other getting it in another year. You have to prorate the bonus over the life of the contract.

Gee, I wonder where you got the idea from because we all now know that Givens is not being paid as a Top 10 wideout

 

[Fanfrom1960]

* I blame his wife. She's the one that put in his head that with all the acclaim he's gotten with his clutch FG's since 2001 he'd command a big contract and signing bonus. It's always the woman behind the man.

We as fans should wish these guys the best, and move on.

That's right, it's the woman that's behind it. Oh, and of course, behind every beautiful woman is a beautiful behind.

If this were 10 years ago, or before Internet boards like this, there would be only mild concern as to the whereabouts of Adam. Damned Internet, getting us all in a bunch like this!

 

[MoLewisrocks]

MoLewis:

While the one-year payment of a prorated bonus is interesting in some situations, you can't base a comparison of pay between two players with one player getting his signing bonus in that year and the other getting it in another year. You have to prorate the bonus over the life of the contract.

Where it gets a little confusing is when players do simple restructures converting annual salary into prorated bonus. That's why neither the NFLPA salary amounts nor the NFLPA franchise tag amounts always provide a clean comparison. When there are no backloading restructures along the way, the numbers used by the NFLPA in determining franchise tags are very clean, accurate numbers. But, they sometimes get out of whack when a team does repeated simple restructures converting salary along the way into a large bonus proration in the final year or two of the contract.

I cannot find a kicker who has made more money annually over the period 2003-2005 than Adam Vinatieri, when doing an apples to apples comparison. None of the kickers you mention made more than Vinatieri using any logical proration of their bonus money.

The Akers and Longwell contracts pretty much define the top of the market - five years, $10 million, including a $3 signing bonus. You can slice and dice those contracts anyway you want and they still average $2 million a year over the next five years. That is less than the $2.5 million Adam made last year. It is less than the $2.1 million he made in 2004. That is less than the $2.3 million he made in 2003.

The crux of the issue is that Vinatieri is already the highest paid kicker in the NFL. He wants a significant raise that is not supported by the market price. That is why the bidding for his services in free agency has been lukewarm at best. The fact that he is demanding a raise not supported by the current top of the market is why I characterize him as "bustin' the Patriots balls".

This is not that hard to figure out. The answer to the question is a contract over some length of time (probably 3 to 5 years) that averages somewhere between $2 million and $2.5 million per year, with somewhere between 25% to 30% of the contract guaranteed. The longer the length and the higher the pay within that range, the more protection there needs to be for the team, i.e. a structure that allows them to bail out at some point if the guy ruptures his Achilles or gets the yips or starts shanking all his long irons. To be perfectly honest, simply matching the Akers deal would be a fair offer from the Pats, but I suspect they are willing to sprinkle a little sugar on top of that, you know, just to show a little "respect" for a valued member of the team.

I think Miguel covered your first paragraph pretty well. By AAV measure then Adam was only the highest paid kicker in 2005. While by either actual in your hand paychecks or total contract value Adam has actually never been highest paid.

I've seen nothing beyond what I have already characterized as hysterical media and fan speculation that suggests Adam is looking for 25% over market. He may be looking for that to be the mark it would take to prompt him to leave here - and who wouldn't. From us I think he's just looking for exactly what he (and a few others like Longwell and Akers) were looking for - highest paid kicker. A mark that can be achieved pretty easily (as Felger continues to point out) via the hundreds of thousands differential under which PK operate. All that now seperates Akers and Longwell from Janikowski in total contract value is $100K per year. And in Longwell's case the chance to kick for that price in a dome was what caused him to jump on the first offer he got. In Aker's case getting to pocket a $3M bonus check while hobbling from a hamstring tear was ample incentive to re-up in Philly rather than test the market in 2006. We've offered Adam no tangible incentive to resign here beyond retaining our apparently tenuous gratitude and affection and some local commercial endorsement income.

If we offer Adam 5/$11M with a $3.25M signing bonus to kick outdoors in cold weather he probably would remain the highest paid kicker in the league by all measures for the forseeable future. And he probably signs that deal a month ago. But if we're talking that same deal with no guaranteed money then what seperates him from them is $3M in signing bonus implicitly guaranteeing he sees anything resembling the $10M they've agreed to. Without it he is essentially agreeing to bind himself to us for 5 years of cold weather kicking with no incentive for us to retain him beyond year to year at slightly more than $2M per. That would amount to an end around the franchise concept (all but the raises) for the team and a really stupid career move financially for the player. He can top that deal anywhere by simply agreeing to a series of short term deals with SB from one of the warm weather or dome teams where his career will likely be extended. For us he can show up in TC for the next few seasons and see if we've found a less expensive alternative allowing us to release him at no cost in August. Will he make less endorsement money in the off season if he goes elsewhere? Probably, but the bulk of that endorsement money would dry up in a hurry here to if we unceremoniously and probably acrimoniously cut him after another season too.

I wouldn't pay Adam $3M a year if that was what it took. But I'm not prepared to demonize him until the dust settles. I don't think they've sprinkled that little sugar you refer to, because if they had that too would have been leaked out, and that is exactly what I think they should have done from the get go. He was after all the last guy standing between one and done and a superbowl run on the snowy night in January 2001 (or between a gutsy effort in likely OT defeat and victory with 7 seconds to go in New Orleans - take your pick) when this dynasty was born.

 

[hwc]

"The three-year contract that "franchise" free agent Adam Vinatieri signed on Friday does not make him the highest-paid kicker in the league ....
"On a per-year average basis, Vinatieri's contract is worth just shy of $1.8 million annually. That ranks him third among all kickers and punters, trailing just Olindo Mare of Miami ($2 million average) and Tampa Bay's Martin Gramatica ($1.857 million), according to the NFL Players Association salary documents for the position."

Ahh, but you left off two teensy-weensy details. Although the per year average of Vinatieri's 2002 contract ($1.8 million) was slighly behind that of Mare's ($2 million), Vinatieri's deal was over three years rather than seven. I doubt that the early years of Mare's deal (covering the 2002-04 were above Vinatieri's $1.8 million.

But, more importantly, you left off the fact that Vinatieri's entire contract was guaranteed. There is a dollar value attached to guaranteed salary in the NFL over non-guaranteed salary. I suspect that any NFL player represented by a competent agent would trade $2 in non-guaranteed money for $1.80 in guaranteed money every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I wish that other teams had comprehenisive cap tables like you have because it makes reasearch so much easier. But, I cannot find evidence of a kicker who matched Vinatieri's $2.3 million in 2003, $2.1 million in 2004, or $2.5 million in 2005, when you include salary, earned bonuses, and non-restructured proration of initial signing bonus money.

I do agree that, at $1.2 million, Vinatieri was probably not the highest paid kicker in 2002. Of course, at that point, he was coming off a succession of mid-pack years punctuated by a legendary post-season performance in 2001. He was only 14th in the league in kicking percentage for the 2001 regular season at 80.0%. The prior three years had been 81.8%, 78.8%, and 79.5%. Solid numbers given the conditions in Foxboro, but before the Oakland snow game, I don't think anyone had Adam Vinatieri penciled in as the best kicker in football.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Ahh, but you left off two teensy-weensy details. Although the per year average of Vinatieri's 2002 contract ($1.8 million) was slighly behind that of Mare's ($2 million), Vinatieri's deal was over three years rather than seven. I doubt that the early years of Mare's deal (covering the 2002-04 were above Vinatieri's $1.8 million.

But, more importantly, you left off the fact that Vinatieri's entire contract was guaranteed. There is a dollar value attached to guaranteed salary in the NFL over non-guaranteed salary. I suspect that any NFL player represented by a competent agent would trade $2 in non-guaranteed money for $1.80 in guaranteed money every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I wish that other teams had comprehenisive cap tables like you have because it makes reasearch so much easier. But, I cannot find evidence of a kicker who matched Vinatieri's $2.3 million in 2003, $2.1 million in 2004, or $2.5 million in 2005, when you include salary, earned bonuses, and non-restructured proration of initial signing bonus money.

I do agree that, at $1.2 million, Vinatieri was probably not the highest paid kicker in 2002. Of course, at that point, he was coming off a succession of mid-pack years punctuated by a legendary post-season performance in 2001. He was only 14th in the league in kicking percentage for the 2001 regular season at 80.0%. The prior three years had been 81.8%, 78.8%, and 79.5%. Solid numbers given the conditions in Foxboro, but before the Oakland snow game, I don't think anyone had Adam Vinatieri penciled in as the best kicker in football.

hwc - we all understand there was a tradeoff in Adam's 2002-2004 deal (or at least we should). The tradeoff this time around appears to be we'll sign you to a deal that pays the highest annual salary with no guarantee you ever see any of it. And I don't know any agent who would advise his client to sign that deal.

You have been basing your ballbuster argument on the belief that he's been leading the pack for years now and they simply could not have realistically offered him essentially a non deal. But if in fact they did, then they really could be intent on positively spinning themselves to the broader based fan base as offering a more than reasonable deal when in fact it is worth $0 unless Adam makes the roster from September 2006 til whenever... And his own performance might not even be the determining factor in that type of scenario - the presence of a cheaper viable alternative at any juncture would likely signal the unceremonious end of his career here. And judging from some of the posts here including yours, they have succeeded at least at the outset in painting the player in the unfavorable light.

And as for the requirement that signing bonus in others deals be considered as spread over the entire length of the deal, that's just cap talk. They get it and get to keep it in year one, even if the are cut a year or two before the deal is completed. And that is not at all unlikely in the kicker scenario since we're only generally talking a $400-500 dead cap hit to be rid of a guy a few years early.

That may be problem Mare is currently facing in the last deal of his 6/$12M deal that he was scheduled to earn the last $1.4M of this year. Saban is angling for him to take a straight salary cut (perhaps just to reunite with one of his cormer college kickers in Edinger) and Mare is beyond pissed. And I'll bet almost eager to get out in this market.

 

[Miguel]

Ahh, but you left off two teensy-weensy details. Although the per year average of Vinatieri's 2002 contract ($1.8 million) was slighly behind that of Mare's ($2 million), Vinatieri's deal was over three years rather than seven. I doubt that the early years of Mare's deal (covering the 2002-04 were above Vinatieri's $1.8 million.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?lname=mare&player=1451

Mare's total renumeration for the years 2002-2004 was close to $5.4 million. According to Mare, he has taken a pay cut the last two to 3 years so one can presume that he was due more money in 2004 than what he received. What about Martin Gramatica's contract??? That seems to be a teensy-weensy detail that you do not want to deal with.

But, more importantly, you left off the fact that Vinatieri's entire contract was guaranteed. There is a dollar value attached to guaranteed salary in the NFL over non-guaranteed salary. I suspect that any NFL player represented by a competent agent would trade $2 in non-guaranteed money for $1.80 in guaranteed money every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

That point was in the referenced article. You are the one who said that Adam has been busting the Patriots' balls since 2002. I think that Adam could easily gotten more than he did in 2002 if he had hit the open market.

I cannot find evidence of a kicker who matched Vinatieri's $2.3 million in 2003, $2.1 million in 2004, or $2.5 million in 2005, when you include salary, earned bonuses, and non-restructured proration of initial signing bonus money.

I doubt that you will ever find it since no other kicker in that time frame was franchised during that time period. It is precisely because Adam was franchised that Adam's 2005 renumeration was so high. I cannot find evidence of a another current kicker with 2 Super Bowl winning kicks. If one includes the 2002 season in calculating Adam's APY and there is no reason why not to since it was the 1st year of his 3-year contract and because YOU said that he has been busting the Patriots's balls since then, his APY for the 2002-2005 seasons was less than $2 million a year.

Here's a teensy-weensy detail that hasn't been brought in this thread. Adam's 2006 cap number would have to be over $3.3 million in order for him NOT to take up a smaller percentage of the Patriots' 2006 cap number than did his 2005 cap number took of the Patriots' 2005 cap number. IMO, Adam would indeed ball-busting the Patriots if he were asking the Pats to devote more cap resources to the kicker position in a multi-year deal than they did in 2005 on a one-year deal. I do not think that Adam is looking for the Pats to do that.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I hate to point this out, but you've been saying hwc is making stuff up. Don't you think you are now?

* I guess you can't recognize an obvious joke.

They are leery because they think Adam is just jerking them around, the same way he's been jerking the Pats around, shopping their offer all over town.

* Now the above IS making stuff up. There's no fact to back it up.

 

[hwc]

Mare's total renumeration for the years 2002-2004 was close to $5.4 million.

And Vinatieri's total renumeration for the years 2002-2004 was $5.63 million. I believe that is higher than $5.4 million, so we've eliminated Mare from the list of kickers who might have made more than Vinatieri in the 2002-2005 time frame.

Including a $1.5 million signing or option bonus in 2004 (which really should be prorated), Janikowski pocketed $4.28 million in 2002-2004. I believe that is less than $5.63 million, too.

Including a $2.27 million bonus in 2002, Martin Grammatica pocketed $3.75 million from the Bucs in the years 2002-2004. I believe that is less than $5.63 million.

How about Longwell? To be fair, I think we should include the proration from his $2 million signing bonus paid in 2001. So, including that proration ($400k per year), his total earnings from 2002-2004 was $4.75 million. Again, less than $5.63 million over the same three-year time frame.

Any other likely candidates for being higher paid than Vinatieri from 2002-2004? I don't think there's any argument that Adam was the highest paid kicker in the NFL in 2005, right?

 

[Miguel]

And Vinatieri's total renumeration for the years 2002-2004 was $5.63 million.

It was not.
It was a $1.8 million signing bonus in 2002, a $750,000 salary in 2002, a $1,400,000 salary in 2003, and a $1,425,000 salary in 2004. While Adam is listed as having a $250,000 LTBE incentive in 2003, one can surmise that he did not actually earn the incentive since it was not listed for the 2004 season. Therefore, he did not get paid the $250,000. So, Adam's total renumeration was $5.375 million. My point was that at the time that you claim Adam was busting the Patriots' balls Olindo Mare was scheduled to be paid more for the years 2002-2004 seasons that Adam was. How was Adam was supposed to know in 2002 that Mare would be asked to take a pay cut in 2004??

Including a $2.27 million bonus in 2002, Martin Grammatica pocketed $3.75 million from the Bucs in the years 2002-2004. I believe that is less than $5.63 million.

You are including the prorations from his 2001 and 2003 signing bonuses. My point was that at the time that you claim Adam was busting the Patriots' balls Martin Gramatica has signed a deal that was scheduled to pay at a higher yearly average. How was Adam was supposed to know in 2002 that Gramatica would be released in 2004??

Any other likely candidates for being higher paid than Vinatieri from 2002-2004?

None.

I don't think there's any argument that Adam was the highest paid kicker in the NFL in 2005, right?

On a one-year basis - I will not argue that point.

 

[DaBruinz]

* I'm saying if BB didn't want to franchise Adam he wouldn't have. He doesn't do anything he doesn't want to do.

I'm sorry. But teams COMPROMISE all the time. You have to in the salary cap era. So, this garbage about BB not doing something he doesn't want to doesn't fly anymore.

As HWC point out BB had 3 options in 2005. And BB had those same 3 options this year. The available PKs last year were even more miserable than the ones available this year.

Here is how the 2005 Options probably looked:

Option 1: Long Term Deal - Preferably for the Patriots. May or may not have been preferable to AV. Would have mean decent money for himself.

Option 2: Franchise AV - Probably lead to animosity between the Pats and AV. And I think AV showed that by NOT getting a new Agent after Cornich was suspended.

Option 3: Let AV go - Not preferable to the Patriots because the available free agents was miserable.

We know that Option 1 got taken away. And its a good bet that the Patriots didn't want any animosity between them and AV, but that was what they were left with especially since there were so few options available.

 

[DaBruinz]

That rule started this year as part of the CBA extension.

Yes, it did. However, I would be willing to put money on it that the NFLPA would have said that it would apply to players like AV since it would have been the 3rd time in a row that he'd been franchised.

 

[Miguel]

Yes, it did. However, I would be willing to put money on it that the NFLPA would have said that it would apply to players like AV since it would have been the 3rd time in a row that he'd been franchised.

But it was not the 3rd year in a row. And Adam only played one season under the franchise tag. I do not think that the rule would apply to Adam. I think that the rule was done to prevent from what happened to Orlando Pace/Walter Jones from happening again.