Adam where are you?

[hwc]

So, Miguel, to recap:

If you are correct and Vinatieri did not earn a dime of LBTE or NLTBE bonus money for winning Super Bowls and making Pro Bowls in 2003-04, then his total renumeration was $5.37 million -- all guaranteed.

Then, we have Olindo Mare as the only kicker who equalled, or perhaps exceeded, Vinatieri's total renumeration by earning $5.4 million over the same period of time -- a difference of $30,000. But, of course, the bulk of his money was not guaranteed.

And, of course, while Vinateire was being paid $2.5 million in the following year, Mare was forced to take a pay cut.

I rest my case. I don't think Vinatieri has even an inch of room to feel "disrespected" by the Patriots.

But, hey, if he thinks he can go out on the open market and get more money, more power to him. To date, it appears that he is not finding the pot of "respect" at the end of the rainbow. But, he's welcome to keep trying. Meanwhile, if the Pats see a deal they like, they should certainly feel welcome to move on. At this point, I don't think the team owes the player any more consideration than any other free agent dialing for dollars.

If Mare breaks lose, I'd offer him the same deal that was on the table for Vinatieri in a heartbeat. He's got a better career percentage and much stronger leg. Belichick might even try a 40+ yard field goal again if he had a kicker with a little more leg.

 

[fgssand]

So, Miguel, to recap:

If you are correct and Vinatieri did not earn a dime of LBTE or NLTBE bonus money for winning Super Bowls and making Pro Bowls in 2003-04, then his total renumeration was $5.37 million -- all guaranteed.

Then, we have Olindo Mare as the only kicker who equalled, or perhaps exceeded, Vinatieri's total renumeration by earning $5.4 million over the same period of time -- a difference of $30,000. But, of course, the bulk of his money was not guaranteed.

And, of course, while Vinateire was being paid $2.5 million in the following year, Mare was forced to take a pay cut.

I rest my case. I don't think Vinatieri has even an inch of room to feel "disrespected" by the Patriots.

But, hey, if he thinks he can go out on the open market and get more money, more power to him. To date, it appears that he is not finding the pot of "respect" at the end of the rainbow. But, he's welcome to keep trying. Meanwhile, if the Pats see a deal they like, they should certainly feel welcome to move on. At this point, I don't think the team owes the player any more consideration than any other free agent dialing for dollars.

If Mare breaks lose, I'd offer him the same deal that was on the table for Vinatieri in a heartbeat. He's got a better career percentage and much stronger leg. Belichick might even try a 40+ yard field goal again if he had a kicker with a little more leg.

You need to consider where AV is kicking versus Mare - that is a huge factor that must be considered when comparing the two. Also, AV has made kicks under pressure, Mare has never has the chance.

I do agree with you about AV "dialing for dollars" he sure is and I also agree with you saying in no way should he feel disprespected by the Pats.

 

[hwc]

As for signing Mare, don't get me wrong. I would like to see Vinatieri back in New England. But, at this point, I think that Belichick has to accept the possibility that there is nothing the Pats could do to get Vinatieri to sign in New England. For reasons that escape me, Adam has shown all the signs of a player who is determined to go to a new team.

Given that set of circumstances, I don't think the Pats can just wait around for him. If a viable option presents itself, they have no choice, but to jump on it. Adam has now had more than a year to indicate in some fashion to the Pats that he is even open to the possibility of getting a contract done. His actions, in so far as we can see them, suggest that he was not interested last year, isn't interested now, and perhaps will never be interested in a new contract with the Pats.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

So, Miguel, to recap:

If you are correct and Vinatieri did not earn a dime of LBTE or NLTBE bonus money for winning Super Bowls and making Pro Bowls in 2003-04, then his total renumeration was $5.37 million -- all guaranteed.

Then, we have Olindo Mare as the only kicker who equalled, or perhaps exceeded, Vinatieri's total renumeration by earning $5.4 million over the same period of time -- a difference of $30,000. But, of course, the bulk of his money was not guaranteed.

And, of course, while Vinateire was being paid $2.5 million in the following year, Mare was forced to take a pay cut.

I rest my case. I don't think Vinatieri has even an inch of room to feel "disrespected" by the Patriots.

But, hey, if he thinks he can go out on the open market and get more money, more power to him. To date, it appears that he is not finding the pot of "respect" at the end of the rainbow. But, he's welcome to keep trying. Meanwhile, if the Pats see a deal they like, they should certainly feel welcome to move on. At this point, I don't think the team owes the player any more consideration than any other free agent dialing for dollars.

If Mare breaks lose, I'd offer him the same deal that was on the table for Vinatieri in a heartbeat. He's got a better career percentage and much stronger leg. Belichick might even try a 40+ yard field goal again if he had a kicker with a little more leg.

Mare apparently thinks he's gotten screwed by Miami the last few years because he's been asked to take paycuts. Apparently because he struggled a tad in the nice weather in 2003-2004 - not to mention missed 5 games due to injury. Of course as Miguel said AV couldn't have predicted that, and no one held a gun to Mare's head. If he's as good as you think he should tell Saban to stuff his cuts where the sun don't shine. You actually think he'd then sign on here for essentially a one year deal to kick in the snow? LOL

BTW Mare had 2 50+ attempts last season and made 1. Career they are within percentage points at 40-49 range and that's with one of them kicking in Miami half of the time. Probably why his kickoffs average a few yards longer.

It's fairly obvious there is little point arguing with you on this. Your mind is made up - apparently anyone who so much as entertains leaving here regardless of the disparity in offers is a money grubbing bastid.

 

[Miguel]

hwc, you forgot to add this in your recap.

You have yet to show how Adam's 2005 cap number killed the Pats.

You have yet to show that Adam is asking to take a greater percentage of the 2006 cap than he did in 2005.

You have yet to show one Adam quote where he claims to be being "disrespected". Your use of the quotation marks implies that Adam made such a quote.

You have agreed that there are kickers playing under contracts right now that have a higher APY than what Adam made from the years 2002 through 2005.

You have agreed that comparing one year's cap number to a player's APY is bad form and misleading.

No kicker in the years 2002-2005 was on two Super Bowl winners. No kicker besides Adam in the years 2002-2005 won a Super Bowl with a last minute kick.

You have yet to show how Adam busted the Patriots' balls in 2002, in 2003 or in 2004.

 

[hwc]

It's fairly obvious there is little point arguing with you on this. Your mind is made up - apparently anyone who so much as entertains leaving here regardless of the disparity in offers is a money grubbing bastid.

What "disparity in offers"? Has Adam even gotten an offer from a another team? Seems to me the only disparity we have so far is:

Patriots: offer
Other teams: no offer

 

[hwc]

You have yet to show how Adam's 2005 cap number killed the Pats.

"Killed" was a figure of speech. Obviously, the Pats managed to get under the cap. However, it seems obvious to me that a multi-year deal, even one averaging $2.5 million, would have given the Pats more cap flexibility in 2005 than the franchise tag.

You have yet to show that Adam is asking to take a greater percentage of the 2006 cap than he did in 2005.

To be blunt, the percentage of cap is really none of Adam's business. He has no interest in the Pats cap situation; he only wants to be paid based on the market and the market doesn't care about the Pats' cap room either. The market has clearly priced top NFL kickers in the 5 year/$10million/$3 million bonus range. According to Adam's one desire for market pricing, that's really all we need to know.

You have yet to show one Adam quote where he claims to be being "disrespected". Your use of the quotation marks implies that Adam made such a quote.

No. I put "disrespected" in quotes because I am using it as a euphemism for "pay me less money than I want".

You have agreed that there are kickers playing under contracts right now that have a higher APY than what Adam made from the years 2002 through 2005.

I not only haven't agreed with that, I can't get anybody to show me an NFL kicker who has made more than Vinateiri over the last four years -- although Mare may be a draw. I don't really care what contracts with funny-money balloon years say. I'm interested in real cold cash. The fact that Mare has been forced to take pay cuts tells me quite clearly that HIS contract was unreasonable based on market pricing. But, hey, the Pats could tack an extra year on the end of Vinatieri's contract at $1 billion if it soothes his ego.

You have yet to show how Adam busted the Patriots' balls in 2002, in 2003 or in 2004.

In my opinion, when a team offers a kicker a top-of-the-market contract, it shouldn't take more than three quick phone calls to get the deal done. Anything more than that is "ball bustin" by a kicker. It's so easy to determine market pricing at this position. My contention is that Adam busted their balls in 2002 by forcing the franchise tag, again in 2005 by forcing the tag again, and now in 2006 by failing to reach agreement on a contract extension.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

"Killed" was a figure of speech. Obviously, the Pats managed to get under the cap. However, it seems obvious to me that a multi-year deal, even one averaging $2.5 million, would have given the Pats more cap flexibility in 2005 than the franchise tag.



To be blunt, the percentage of cap is really none of Adam's business. He has no interest in the Pats cap situation; he only wants to be paid based on the market and the market doesn't care about the Pats' cap room either. The market has clearly priced top NFL kickers in the 5 year/$10million/$3 million bonus range. According to Adam's one desire for market pricing, that's really all we need to know.



No. I put "disrespected" in quotes because I am using it as a euphemism for "pay me less money than I want".



I not only haven't agreed with that, I can't get anybody to show me an NFL kicker who has made more than Vinateiri over the last four years -- although Mare may be a draw. I don't really care what contracts with funny-money balloon years say. I'm interested in real cold cash. The fact that Mare has been forced to take pay cuts tells me quite clearly that HIS contract was unreasonable based on market pricing. But, hey, the Pats could tack an extra year on the end of Vinatieri's contract at $1 billion if it soothes his ego.



In my opinion, when a team offers a kicker a top-of-the-market contract, it shouldn't take more than three quick phone calls to get the deal done. Anything more than that is "ball bustin" by a kicker. It's so easy to determine market pricing at this position. My contention is that Adam busted their balls in 2002 by forcing the franchise tag, again in 2005 by forcing the tag again, and now in 2006 by failing to reach agreement on a contract extension.

Absent a signing bonus or some form of guarantee he sees more than one year of the deal, they offered him nothing. At that point they can call each other 10 times a day and unless the team offers some sugar as you call it a deal isn't getting done because they are for some reason bustin' Adams balls.

I think it will get done, but that's beside the point.

 

[Miguel]

"Killed" was a figure of speech. Obviously, the Pats managed to get under the cap. However, it seems obvious to me that a multi-year deal, even one averaging $2.5 million, would have given the Pats more cap flexibility in 2005 than the franchise tag.

It is obvious to me, too. But coming to a deal is a two-way street and you seem to blaming only Adam for the lack of an agreement.

The market has clearly priced top NFL kickers in the 5 year/$10million/$3 million bonus range.....I not only haven't agreed with that,

If the market "has clearly priced top NFL kickers in the 5 year/$10 million/$3 million bonus range, then there has to be players who are playing under contracts paying them at a higher APY than Adam received from 2002-2004 and maybe from 2002-2005 depending if Adam made his $250,000 LTBE incentive in 2005.

 

[Miguel]

In my opinion, when a team offers a kicker a top-of-the-market contract, it shouldn't take more than three quick phone calls to get the deal done. Anything more than that is "ball bustin" by a kicker. It's so easy to determine market pricing at this position. My contention is that Adam busted their balls in 2002 by forcing the franchise tag, again in 2005 by forcing the tag again, and now in 2006 by failing to reach agreement on a contract extension.

How do you know that the Patriots offer Adam a top of the market contract before they franchised him?? If there is anything that I have learned from doing my cap pages, it is that the Patriots wait until the very last moment to present their best offer. That MO is not the fault of the players.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

On Channel 5 Sports just now Mike Lynch reported Adam just fired his agent. I'm not surprised. He should call Borges and get Brad Blank's #.

Mike also interviewed Kraft at the Celtics game (Tedy was in attendance too - wonder whether it was Bob of Tedy he got that AV nugget from) and Bob when pressed about how we've lost some players but surely he wants Adam back said there are certainly guys they would like to have back like Adam and Troy Brown and all he knows is our people are working on it.

 

[hwc]

On Channel 5 Sports just now Mike Lynch reported Adam just fired his agent.

Makes sense. Obviously, it must be the agent's fault that NFL teams aren't falling all over themselves to pay Vinatieri $3.5 million units of "respect" each year. Somehow, I don't think this is how Vinatieri envisioned "testing the free agent waters". I almost feel sorry for the guy. Not one big-spending NFL owner sends a private jet. He gets one stinkin' visit -- to Wisconsin -- and the GM is out of town!

He should try Kevin Poston.

Or, maybe he should take Bill Parcells' advice and just sit down with the Pats and hammer out a deal. So far, all he's really accomplished with this big free agency splash is driving down his own value.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Makes sense. Obviously, it must be the agent's fault that NFL teams aren't falling all over themselves to pay Vinatieri $3.5 million units of "respect" each year.

There you go again upping Adam's asking price because you know it makes him look bad to folks who just believe you... :nono:

You never answered my question the other day - he kick your dog or something?

 

[PatsSteve1]

Makes sense. Obviously, it must be the agent's fault that NFL teams aren't falling all over themselves to pay Vinatieri $3.5 million units of "respect" each year.

* I thought I was obviously joking that Adam Wife's filled his head with the thought that after all the acclaim he's gotten with his clutch kicking since the 2001 season, he'd hit the jackpot in FA. I never expected he'd get any more than the other top kickers when it all shook out. He's a PK. He's on the field for relatively few plays compared to other position players. It's not like he makes 98% of his FG attempts from inside 55 yards, 99% of his KO go out of the EZ and he can fill in as the dime DB. IMO, someone, or he did it himself, gave him the idea he could hit the jackpot in FA like no other PK ever has.

 

[BelichickFan]

On Channel 5 Sports just now Mike Lynch reported Adam just fired his agent.

LOL. His problem is that he's a kicker. A damn good one, but still a kicker.

 

[hwc]

I'm telling ya. All he needs to do is hire Kevin Poston. Get some sunglasses and a little jewelry. Maybe a gold tooth. Wear a Yankees cap, backwards. Then, hold a press conference in his front yard, telling the media:

a) That he will never play for the Patriots again; that he wants to go to a team where ownership and fans respect him. Blast Belichick, Kraft, Pioli, Myra, Dunkin Donuts, the New England Ford Dealers Association, and the ladies that work in the Pro Shop at Gillette.

b) Tell the media that it's not about the money, it's about respect. And, that he's gotta feed his family.

c) Just be an all-around horse's *****.

Somebody needs to teach this guy how to play the free agency market. Kevin Poston will help him a bunch.

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

Makes sense. Obviously, it must be the agent's fault that NFL teams aren't falling all over themselves to pay Vinatieri $3.5 million units of "respect" each year.

Chillllll... this could be the perfect out for him, chance to save a little face. He comes back and it a was that agent's fault he wasn't back here sooner.

 

[hwc]

Chillllll... this could be the perfect out for him, chance to save a little face. He comes back and it a was that agent's fault he wasn't back here sooner.

Could be. Or, the agent sat down with Vinatieri this weekend and laid out the facts:

a) I've been beating the bushes for a month, lined up one stinkin' visit, and the GM wasn't even in town to talk to you. The market isn't there.

b) The longer you keep this up, the more the risk that you blow it with the Pats. Belichick is talking to other kickers. Is that what you want?

c) Dunkin Donuts and the Ford Dealers have pulled their ads and told me that they will be exercising their out clauses since you are no longer a Patriot player.

c) I recommend that we sit down with the Pats and hammer out a deal.

And, Vinatieri fired him.

 

[Miguel]

Could be. Or, the agent sat down with Vinatieri this weekend and laid out the facts:

a) I've been beating the bushes for a month, lined up one stinkin' visit, and the GM wasn't even in town to talk to you. The market isn't there.


b) The longer you keep this up, the more the risk that you blow it with the Pats. Belichick is talking to other kickers. Is that what you want?

c) Dunkin Donuts and the Ford Dealers have pulled their ads and told me that they will be exercising their out clauses since you are no longer a Patriot player.

c) I recommend that we sit down with the Pats and hammer out a deal.

And, Vinatieri fired him.

Unfortunately, the market was there