Adam where are you?

[hwc]

* If he hasn't had many visits then who is he shopping all over town with? You're making stuff up.

Agent contacts team. Team and agent discuss "parameters". If the "parameters" are in the ballpark, player goes for a visit and (hopefully) leaves with a big contract or goes on to the next place with promising "parameters".

It appears that Adam hasn't been too successful shopping "parameters" that exceed what he already has on the table from the Pats.

Jim Donaldson in the ProJo did the legwork to find the largest kicker contracts signed in recent years, starting with the most recent:

KICKER TEAM YEARS VALUE BONUS DATE

Ryan Longwell Vikings 5 $10 $3 3/06
David Akers Eagles 5 10 3 11/05
Neil Rackers Cardinals 4 6.5 -- 11/05
Kris Brown Texans 5 8 2 5/05
Jason Elam Broncos 5 9 2.6 2/03
Sebastian Janikowski Raiders 5 10.5 2.8 12/04
Olindo Mare Dolphins 6 12 -- 3/01
Mike Vanderjagt Colts 5 7.4 1.5 2/01

With Longwell and Akers just signing 5 year $10 million deals with $3 million in bonus money, I would say that Vinatieri is unlikely, at this point, to beat his $2.5 million from last year in a new deal. The market just isn't there for kickers. I'd rather have Akers than Vinatieiri, even up. He's younger and has a slightly better career percentage and a stronger leg. They are both excellent kickers.

 

[PatsSteve1]

With Longwell and Akers just signing 5 year $10 million deals with $3 million in bonus money, I would say that Vinatieri is unlikely, at this point, to beat his $2.5 million from last year in a new deal. The market just isn't there for kickers. I'd rather have Akers than Vinatieiri, even up. He's younger and has a slightly better career percentage and a stronger leg. They are both excellent kickers.[/QUOTE]

* I posted at the start of FA that Adam wasn't going to get that good a deal because he's just a PK.

 

[hwc]

* I posted at the start of FA that Adam wasn't going to get that good a deal because he's just a PK.

Then, why is Vinatieri bustin' the Pats' balls? Assuming that they offered him something in line with Akers or Longwell money, it just shouldn't be that hard to get a deal done with a frickin' kicker -- especially one that has endorsement deals out the wazoo in his current city.

Akers and the Eagles didn't have any trouble arriving at a top-of-the-market deal. Longwell had his deal with the Vikings done even before the tampering period ended.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Agent contacts team. Team and agent discuss "parameters". If the "parameters" are in the ballpark, player goes for a visit and (hopefully) leaves with a big contract or goes on to the next place with promising "parameters".

It appears that Adam hasn't been too successful shopping "parameters" that exceed what he already has on the table from the Pats.

* You have no idea how many teams his agent may have contacted. That said, why wouldn't an agent shop his clients services sround for the best deal he can find? How do you know what the Patriots really offered? What was reported, also was reported to have no guaranteed money.

 

[hwc]

* You have no idea how many teams his agent may have contacted.

If Vinatieri's agent isn't dialing for dollars around the NFL, then WTF is Vinateiri doing? Just jerking the Pats around for the sport of it? Please explain it to me?

The logical assumption is that Vinatieri has spent the first week of free agency shopping for the best deal he can find in order to compare it to the Pats' offer and sell his services to the highest bidder. One can only assume that he hasn't gotten a lot of nibbles at his asking price, or he would have had more than one visit.

Now, you are telling me that his agent is NOT calling other teams? Adam is just sitting at home playing tiddlewinks? I don't understand that. It's not logical.

 

[fgssand]

Then, why is Vinatieri bustin' the Pats' balls? Assuming that they offered him something in line with Akers or Longwell money, it just shouldn't be that hard to get a deal done with a frickin' kicker -- especially one that has endorsement deals out the wazoo in his current city.

Akers and the Eagles didn't have any trouble arriving at a top-of-the-market deal. Longwell had his deal with the Vikings done even before the tampering period ended.

I can only assume he was pissed for being franchised - no bonus money, nothing but one year deals.

It is AMAZING to me that my favorite kicker of all time is quickly going from legend & hero in my mind to a/hole. I cannot believe that I really do not care whether we sign AV or Akers, Josh Brown or even Edinger at this point. I am sure I am not alone.

Adam V. what have you done? Does he or his agent have any clue that his playing hardball seems to be wearing thin and may very well backfire on him?

Then I stop and Snowbowl kick, SB 36, Tenn & Colt playoff games etc., run through my brain.

 

[PatsSteve1]

If Vinatieri's agent isn't dialing for dollars around the NFL, then WTF is Vinateiri doing? Just jerking the Pats around for the sport of it? Please explain it to me?

* As a UFA he can do anything he wants, including not resign with the Patriots, no matter what the offers may or not be.

 

[oldrover]

I've already written him off. If we keep him, that would be great. But I think he's determined to leave... even if he takes a little less elsewhere. Thick-headed little Italian bastid. (j/k... I have only the highest regard for people of Italian descent )

 

[PatsSteve1]

I've already written him off. If we keep him, that would be great. But I think he's determined to leave... even if he takes a little less elsewhere. Thick-headed little Italian bastid. (j/k... I have only the highest regard for people of Italian descent )

* Just about time for the Soprano's, which is the only thing giving Sundays any value this time of year - I don't hold it against players that are FA's, whether because thier contract ran out or they were released, from trying to get the best deal possible. If I were them I'd probably do the same thing. I also don't feel a player is wrong to take less to stay with the same team. It's their choice where they go and for what deal that's offered. It's the reality of NFL football.

 

[hwc]

I can only assume he was pissed for being franchised - no bonus money, nothing but one year deals.

I don't think the Pats wanted to franchise Vinatieri last year. It killed them capwise compared to a long-term deal -- in year when they had a double-dip on Brady's proration and Law's dead money hit.

Instead, I think the Pats probably offered Adam a competitive top-of-the-market deal last year and he busted their balls then, just like he is doing now. This has really been bubbling for the last four years.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I don't think the Pats wanted to franchise Vinatieri last year. It killed them capwise compared to a long-term deal -- in year when they had a double-dip on Brady's proration and Law's dead money hit.

Instead, I think the Pats probably offered Adam a competitive top-of-the-market deal last year and he busted their balls then, just like he is doing now. This has really been bubbling for the last four years.

* If BB didn't want to franchise him,l he wouldn't have. The rest here is making stuff up again.

 

[fgssand]

I don't think the Pats wanted to franchise Vinatieri last year. It killed them capwise compared to a long-term deal -- in year when they had a double-dip on Brady's proration and Law's dead money hit.

Instead, I think the Pats probably offered Adam a competitive top-of-the-market deal last year and he busted their balls then, just like he is doing now. This has really been bubbling for the last four years.

\

Yeah, I think you are right......only way he comes back is on BB;s terms or not at all.

 

[hwc]

* If BB didn't want to franchise him,l he wouldn't have. The rest here is making stuff up again.

Pats 1st choice in 2005: sign Vinatieri to a multi-year deal with bonus proration

Pats 2nd choice in 2005: franchise Vinatieri at $2.5 million

Pats 3rd choice in 2005: let Vinatieiri walk.

See how this works? Franchising Vinatieri could have not been the Pats prefered option and still been preferable to letting him walk.

Now, the equation is as follows:

Pats 1st choice in 2006: sign Vinatieri to a multi-year deal with bonus proration

Pats 2nd choice in 2006: let Vinatieiri walk

Pats 3rd choice in 2006: franchise Vinatieri at $3.0 million (unacceptable)

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Agent contacts team. Team and agent discuss "parameters". If the "parameters" are in the ballpark, player goes for a visit and (hopefully) leaves with a big contract or goes on to the next place with promising "parameters".

It appears that Adam hasn't been too successful shopping "parameters" that exceed what he already has on the table from the Pats.

Jim Donaldson in the ProJo did the legwork to find the largest kicker contracts signed in recent years, starting with the most recent:

KICKER TEAM YEARS VALUE BONUS DATE

Ryan Longwell Vikings 5 $10 $3 3/06
David Akers Eagles 5 10 3 11/05
Neil Rackers Cardinals 4 6.5 -- 11/05
Kris Brown Texans 5 8 2 5/05
Jason Elam Broncos 5 9 2.6 2/03
Sebastian Janikowski Raiders 5 10.5 2.8 12/04
Olindo Mare Dolphins 6 12 -- 3/01
Mike Vanderjagt Colts 5 7.4 1.5 2/01

With Longwell and Akers just signing 5 year $10 million deals with $3 million in bonus money, I would say that Vinatieri is unlikely, at this point, to beat his $2.5 million from last year in a new deal. The market just isn't there for kickers. I'd rather have Akers than Vinatieiri, even up. He's younger and has a slightly better career percentage and a stronger leg. They are both excellent kickers.

What I don't understand is how otherwise intelligent people come to the knee jerk conclusion that Adam is over reaching by shopping himself in a market where the kickers who have signed deals in the last 3-4 years have ALL topped him as highest paid. If David Akers still limping from his hamstring tear (the bane of the kickers existence) gets extended with a $3M signing bonus on top of his 2005 salary last November he was the highest paid kicker in the league in 2005. If Janakowski gets a $2.8M signing bonus plus a salary in December 2004 he made way more than Adam Vinatieri did in 2004. Ditto Jason Elam in 2003 ($2.6 + salary). In 2002 Adam signed a 3 year deal for $5.375M that was basically guaranteed and averaged $1.79M per season regardless of how the team chose to divide it up for cap purposes. But a year earlier Mare had signed a 6 year $12M deal? Don't know how much of it was guaranteed but he's in the final year of it now so I guess Mare has averaged $2M per year for the last 6 seasons. Amazing.

At the moment the deal the Patriots offered according to Jonathan Kraft insured Adam remained the highest paid kicker in the league. Since he hasn't really ever been I'm not entirely clear what that meant. According to multiple reports the deal offered contained no guaranteed money or signing bonus, so that would appear to make it essentially a series of one year deals for somewhere in the vacinity of $2.25M+, of course provided he makes the final roster each season. We don't know if they offered more than 3 years of this largesse and regardless they are free to cut him at any time with NO CAP CONSEQUENCE (because only the pro rated amount left on a signing bonus provides the implied guarantee that most of these deals will last at least 3 years).

Yet for some here for some reason if Adam is looking for a better deal, or feels based on this deal it is indeed time to move on, he is the ballbuster. Somehow that logic escapes me.

 

[hwc]

Vinateiri earned between $2.1 million and $2.5 million each year in 2003, 2004, and 2005 -- more than the average in either Akers' or Longwell's new contracts.

Mare's total cap number for 2005 was $1.9 million and in 2004 it was $1.58 million.

Here are his salary numbers according the NFLPA:

2001 800000.00
2002 1500000.00
2003 530000.00
2004 660000.00
2005 1050000.00
2006 1400000.00
2007 1500000.00
2008 1500000.00
2009 1500000.00

I don't know the details of his bonus prorations, but based on his 2005 numbers, it would be difficult to see how he exceeds $2 million per year in any of the four upcoming seasons. He has clearly earned less than Vinatieri in each of the last two seasons.

the deal offered contained no guaranteed money or signing bonus

I've stated here several times that I do not believe that. It makes no sense from the Pats standpoint to not prorate a bonus as part of a multi-year deal for Vinatieri. To the best of my knowledge, it would be the first multiyear deal in the history of the Pats with no signing bonus. Not plausible from a cap management standpoint.

 

[PatsSteve1]

See how this works? Franchising Vinatieri could have not been the Pats prefered option and still been preferable to letting him walk.

* BB has cut many players over the years that were far more valuable than Adan Vinitieri but somehow you want us to believe he HAD to franchise Adam, a PK? You are joking, right? See how that works?

 

[DaBruinz]

Pats 1st choice in 2005: sign Vinatieri to a multi-year deal with bonus proration

Pats 2nd choice in 2005: franchise Vinatieri at $2.5 million

Pats 3rd choice in 2005: let Vinatieiri walk.

See how this works? Franchising Vinatieri could have not been the Pats prefered option and still been preferable to letting him walk.

Now, the equation is as follows:

Pats 1st choice in 2006: sign Vinatieri to a multi-year deal with bonus proration

Pats 2nd choice in 2006: let Vinatieiri walk

Pats 3rd choice in 2006: franchise Vinatieri at $3.0 million (unacceptable)

I am pretty sure that the Pats couldn't have franchised Adam a 3rd time because that would have required him to be paid like a QB.

 

[DaBruinz]

See how this works? Franchising Vinatieri could have not been the Pats prefered option and still been preferable to letting him walk.

* BB has cut many players over the years that were far more valuable than Adan Vinitieri but somehow you want us to believe he HAD to franchise Adam, a PK? You are joking, right? See how that works?

PatsSteve -
You aren't reading what HWC said properly. He is saying that the Patriots preferred option would NOT have been to franchise Adam. He is not saying what you claim.

 

[Pats726]

So where is he??? Is he decidig what to do? OR just waiting it out..seeing who blinks..who does something...waiting for Mare to be cut..headed to Miami?? I am not sure how this plays out now...if AV is caught in a sort of no man's land..if he's waiting for the Pats to up the offer?? Deciding to take less in GB?? Second thoughts on it all now that he's a FA and not signed??
Frankly, I am getting a bit tired of it all. I think if they resign him that would be fine; if he goes elsewhere, that will be OK as well. I am concerned about kicking in the poor weather and clutch kicking...TWO LARGE factors in AV's favor. But I do think there are kickers that may be clutch...and may even have both those as well...but to me, that is where the big difference will be.
But just get on with it and get it over with...AV would be a legend if he stays..and a sure HOFer..but if he goes?? I am sure BB/SP have a kicker in mind.

 

[PatsSteve1]

PatsSteve -
You aren't reading what HWC said properly. He is saying that the Patriots preferred option would NOT have been to franchise Adam. He is not saying what you claim.

* I'm saying if BB didn't want to franchise Adam he wouldn't have. He doesn't do anything he doesn't want to do.