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A Wes-less Offense


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Well, what is the point then? How can you have the quality of refusing to lose when you lose?
None of those guys win anything if Tom Brady doesn't replace Bledsoe.

The point was my answering someone's question in a way I thought he might understand. Everybody loses in the major professional sports, so that was obviously not where I was going with my post.
 
Hey, remember when this was a well informed thread with multiple posts from many different posters offering opinions that were well thought out?

Those were the days.
 
I definitely understand the shortcomings of Talib. The biggest one is his ability (or lack thereof) to stay on the field.

But who do you suggest the Pats pursue if they don't re-sign Talib? You may have mentioned this in another thread and if you have, I apologize for not seeing it.
Keenan Lewis of the Pittsburgh Steelers is one alternative.

Keenan Lewis, CB for the Pittsburgh Steelers at NFL.com

2012 NFL Season - 23 Passes Defensed
 
Some people can't face the possibility that they are incorrect, or more importantly, the question they are addressing has no definitive answer.
 
Some people can't face the possibility that they are incorrect, or more importantly, the question they are addressing has no definitive answer.

You should talk.

Instead of just talking didn't you go shoot a bunch a guys at some horse corral someplace?
 
You should talk.

Instead of just talking didn't you go shoot a bunch a guys at some horse corral someplace?

but would the shooting have happened had you not been there? I think that is the important question.
 
2012 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2012 NFL Regular Season

Wes Welker targets = 174

2011 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2011 NFL Regular Season

Wes Welker targets = 172
You are one year short in your post, Tip. What happened in 2010? A year where both Gronk and Hernandez were relatively healthy. I'd be interested in seeing that number. BTW- 2010 was one I was referring to. I acknowledged that the targets were similar in 2012 and 2011
 
Great topic and plenty of well thought out opinions.
One thought and I don't know if it has been discussed is an even greater emphasis on the TE. Besides the obvious receiving threat Gronk is, we really missed his blocking skill and although we still had a "2 TE" offense with Hernandez and Hooman, Hernandez plays off the line mostly unless split out and Hooman is a weak blocker and offers no threat as receiver. I would like to see a good blocking TE that is a decent receiver. Jake Ballard anyone? Have 2 good blocking TE's along with Hernandez (who really isn't a TE and would be lined up all over) would be difficult to defend in both the running game and play-action. We certainly need some youth on the outside but history shows this offense is tough for college receivers to pick up and if Brady doesn't trust a receiver, the ball aint coming his way.
I still have a lot of faith in Edelman and believe his role will expand but I'm giddy thinking of 2 on-the-line TE's, one an all-pro and another a good blocker and a decent receiver.
 
Welker would be best suited to go to Denver and play with Peyton. Both great regular season players that fold at the biggest time. Peyton could even blame Welker for dropping his wounded ducks.
 
Welker would be best suited to go to Denver and play with Peyton. Both great regular season players that fold at the biggest time. Peyton could even blame Welker for dropping his wounded ducks.
You know, this sort of mentality really pisses me off. Wes Welker has been a fine Patriot and has performed at every level in the NFL. Let's zero in on Welker and not the other 10 offensive players on the field with him at any given time shall we?
 
Keenan Lewis of the Pittsburgh Steelers is one alternative.

Keenan Lewis, CB for the Pittsburgh Steelers at NFL.com

2012 NFL Season - 23 Passes Defensed

So many questions regarding Keenan Lewis it's crazy...

This is a guy who has a 4 yr career total of....1 interception. Prior to this year he could hardly see the field, was in Mike Tomlin's doghouse, and forced the Steelers to spend 2 CB picks in the draft (Allen and C.Brown).

Sure his 23 passes defended, which came on towards the second half of the year when Taylor went down, look good. His prior high was 6 passes defended and he was well known for making some really stupid mistakes and penalties.

We have seen other Steeler CB's go to free agency and look pathetic. Gay and McFadden are two off the top of my head.

Common sense would indicate that if Lewis is so "great" that the aging PIT defense would certainly want him around for the future, and they'd likely lock him up on a more reasonable deal now. They refused to even negotiate last season due to them having no idea what he was really worth, and they didn't even know if they'd want to keep him or not.

Is he an uprising star? Or is he a player who isn't that good but ended up having a nice second half of the season? Laurant Robinson part 2, yet in a different positon?

Here is one of K.Lewis' tweets from a couple/few wks ago regarding his potential future with Pittsburgh:

"@KeenanLewis23 wrote:
I was misquoted by a reporter saying it was a mistake not to give me a contract last year. Try to make my image look bad, but here Wat it is, I'm not money greedy, I had my exit meeting today and it went great. I know we in the right direction as far as a contract, I believe strongly I would be apart of Steeler Nation next season. To do a three peat as the number one pass defense period. Here we go"



I get that there is Lewis love here, but we'll have to have a lot more options that him if we allow Talib to walk due to being overpriced. No one even knows what the hell kind of player this guy will be. He's a major gamble at the moment.
 
You know, this sort of mentality really pisses me off. Wes Welker has been a fine Patriot and has performed at every level in the NFL. Let's zero in on Welker and not the other 10 offensive players on the field with him at any given time shall we?

I know he looked pretty good snagging that ball over the middle when he got lit the hell up by Pollard and the other BAL player on the penalty.

It moved the ball from the NE 36 all the way to the BAL 25 IIRC, due to the catch and the 15 yd penalty. At that point it appeared that Pollard and the defense was starting to lose their cool, as the Pats were still up 13-7 with about 5 minutes to go until the last quarter.

I really thought that catch would be the key to another victory, and that they'd have pulled away right then and there. It should've happened.

At any rate, he's proven to be one very tough SOB, and that specific catch is the kind that defines him.
 
You know, this sort of mentality really pisses me off. Wes Welker has been a fine Patriot and has performed at every level in the NFL. Let's zero in on Welker and not the other 10 offensive players on the field with him at any given time shall we?

A certain amount of that "sort of mentality" has to be expected in a thread specifically about the offense without Welker.

There's no doubt that Welker has performed at every level, and done everything humanly asked of him. My clear preference would be to continue with Wes Welker as part of this offense at a reasonable cost and with Brady spreading things around a bit more. I personally don't think that option is likely to happen, but we'll find out in a month or so.
 
A certain amount of that "sort of mentality" has to be expected in a thread specifically about the offense without Welker.

There's no doubt that Welker has performed at every level, and done everything humanly asked of him. My clear preference would be to continue with Wes Welker as part of this offense at a reasonable cost and with Brady spreading things around a bit more. I personally don't think that option is likely to happen, but we'll find out in a month or so.
I'd like for Welker to stay but I'm also prepared for him to go if it contributes to the Patriots becoming a better team. That's the goal of list management every season; build a better team.

My ire is drawn at the crap that's being thrown Welker's way because he's a visible and apparently easy target.
 
I'd like for Welker to stay but I'm also prepared for him to go if it contributes to the Patriots becoming a better team. That's the goal of list management every season; build a better team.

My ire is drawn at the crap that's being thrown Welker's way because he's a visible and apparently easy target.

Let's compare the current situation with a hypothetical (because those are always fun).

Current:

WR - Welker
WR - Lloyd
WR - Edelman


Say they let Welker go and use that money to pick up a guy like Greg Jennings. They would, because Jennings would cost less than Welker, have $$ available to add some help elsewhere. But let's just focus on the WRs for now. The top 3 in the WR corps then becomes:

WR - Jennings
WR - Lloyd
WR - Edelman

Jennings' best year was probably 2010: 76 rec, 1265 yds, 16.6 ypc, 12 td. That's a lot fewer receptions than Welker normally gets (like about 40 fewer), but the yardage is similar, the TDs are much higher, and the ypc is significantly higher. In other words, Jennings is a much greater big-play threat than Welker is. Plus, he's bigger, faster, two years younger, and he hasn't taken the beating Welker has. Moving forward, is Jennings a better investment of the $$?

It's hard to say. Again, Jennings brings things to the table that Welker does not. But one thing about Welker is that we KNOW he can be incredibly effective here. Not every receiver is a good fit here. Welker is as much of a known commodity as there is in the league at this point. We know that he'll catch 110+ passes for 1200+ yds. It's a given. But if Jennings is here, can he add an extra dimension that the team is currently lacking, while allowing people like Hernandez, Gronk, and Edelman to handle the underneath stuff?
 
I'd like for Welker to stay but I'm also prepared for him to go if it contributes to the Patriots becoming a better team. That's the goal of list management every season; build a better team.

My ire is drawn at the crap that's being thrown Welker's way because he's a visible and apparently easy target.

I don't understand the Welker hate either. Dude is unbelievably good and remarkably consistent. Yes, he drops a few balls. But he is targeted SO much and has SO many receptions that he's bound to drop some.

Do I think this offense will be excellent if he leaves? Yes. Because they have a good O-line, a HOF quarterback, the best TE tandem (now trio with Ballard) in the league, a very good stable of running backs, and at least one other capable receiver (Lloyd). That's still a lot of offensive firepower.
 
...Jennings' best year was probably 2010: 76 rec, 1265 yds, 16.6 ypc, 12 td. That's a lot fewer receptions than Welker normally gets (like about 40 fewer), but the yardage is similar, the TDs are much higher, and the ypc is significantly higher. In other words, Jennings is a much greater big-play threat than Welker is. Plus, he's bigger, faster, two years younger, and he hasn't taken the beating Welker has. Moving forward, is Jennings a better investment of the $$?...

1.) Jennings plays a different role in the offense. He's not a bigger "big-play threat" than Welker. He's a downfield threat. Welker makes big plays in pretty much every game he's in. People just like to ignore the fact that converting a 3rd and 10 is a big play. I don't think that's what you were doing, as I think you were just using a common term, but I think it needed to be pointed out that Welker racks up big plays pretty much every game.

2.) Jennings has played a full 16 game season just once in his NFL career. Welker has done it 6 times in 9 years.

3.) Jennings last two seasons consist of 21 combined games. In those 21 combined games, he's gotten 1315 yards. That's less than Welker's yardage totals for 3 of the last 4 years, with that 4th year being the one where Welker was coming back from the ACL surgery.

4.) Even going back to the years before Jennings recent down seasons, since Welker's arrival in 2007, he's racked up 7459 receiving yards compared to Jennings' 5905 yards, a difference of about 1500 yards, or one really good year's worth of extra yardage.

Whether you look catch totals, yardage or ability to actually stay on the field, Welker is the clearly suprerior choice. The areas that Jennings really beats Welker are where you'd expect a downfield threat to do that, which are YPC and TD. Change here wouldn't be about getting the better player or better value. You'd lose out on both. Change here would be either about a straight money savings or an overhaul of the offensive philosophy.
 
I had way too much time on my hands yesterday and got access to some cool stats, so I spent an hour or so playing around with completion rates, drop rates, spreadsheets, etc., looking at NFL wide receivers, with a focus on Wes Welker. Admittedly, I am more of a baseball guy than an NFL guy, so perhaps these numbers won't make sense/be useful, but hell, I spent some time on them so I may as well post. Maybe you guys will find them interesting.

Wes Welker was a very good player in 2012. He caught 118 passes, the 2nd highest total in the NFL, gained 619 yards after catching the ball, the most in football, and had 72 first downs, 6th best in the league. But I don't think those numbers tell the whole story, and there is some evidence to suggest Welker is regressing. His completion percentage, calculated simply as Receptions/Targets has gone from 79.6% in 2008 to 70.2% last season (all stats include playoffs, and are from FootballFocus.com). His drops have gone from 7 in 2008 to a disconcerting 19 this season, by far the most in the NFL, including 4 in the two Patriot playoff games. Welker also led the NFL in drops in 2011, with 15.

Code:
Year	 Targ  Rec     Rec %  Drops Catchable	 Drop %
2008	 137	 109	 79.6%	 7	 116	 6.0%
2009	 152	 123	 80.9%	 6	 129	 4.7%
2010	 127	 95	 74.8%	 13	 106	 12.3%
2011	 193	 141	 73.1%	 15	 156	 9.6%
2012	 191	 134	 70.2%	 19	 153	 12.4%


Drops alone, of course, are not a fair way to judge Welker, who sees far more passes than an average receiver. Drop percentage may be a better method of assessing Welker's pass catching ability, although, as I will discuss shortly, there are issues with that stat when considering Welker, as well. As you can see from the chart, Welker's drop percentage has declined quite a bit over the past three seasons. In 2008 and 2009, Welker's drop % put him among the top 10 – 15 receivers in the game, while from 2010 – 2012 he has been bottom 20 (this includes receivers who are targeted 25% of the time, which corresponds to ~ 50 targets over the course of the season).

With receivers, you also have to consider the difficulty of the catch when looking at completion and drop percentage. Welker is primarily a slot receiver, which in simplistic terms means he catches shorter passes that are generally easier to complete. In 2012, Welker's average catch (receiving yards - yards after catch) was 6.2 yards from the line of scrimmage, the 9th shortest in football. Among the 14 NFL players who played greater than 60% slot snaps, the average completion rate was 66.6%, compared to 58.7% for all receivers with over 50 targets. The average drop % for the slot players was 9.1%, with Welker's 12.4% ranking him 3rd worst, while the average for all was 9.2%. All slot above numbers derived from FootballFocus.com

I also looked at players who caught the ball close to the line of scrimmage, as Welker did in 2012. There were 14 NFL players who were targeted over 50 times and caught the ball, on average, less than 7.5 yards downfield. These players combined for a 64.6% completion rate, right in line with our slot receivers above, but only dropped the ball 7.3% of the time, excluding Welker's 19 drops (12.4%). It should also be noted that there is a huge range among this group, which includes both the two receivers with the worst drop rates in the NFL (over 50 targets), T.J. Graham and Early Doucet (18.4% and 22.2% drops, respectively), as well as some of the best in Percy Harvin and Mario Manningham (1.6% and 2.3 % drop rates). This leads me to wonder if this group is statistically significant, but I'll leave it in and you can decide.

Interestingly, there seems to be a drop off both in Welker's reception percentage and drop percentage after his 2009 injury. In 2008 and 2009 (drop stats are not available before 2008), his reception percentage was 80%, since it has gone from 74.8% to 73.1% to 70.2%, a significant decline. More strikingly, Welker's drop percentage, which was just over 5% combined in 2008 and 2009, has been well over double that the past 3 seasons. His drops have risen from 6 and 7 to 13, 15, and 19 the past three seasons (again, all numbers include playoffs).

Welker is, as I stated above, still a very good player. He puts up huge counting numbers and stays healthy, something which should not be discounted. There is pretty clear evidence, however, that his skills are regressing, and have been since the injury. Welker has been a huge part of the offense, but I wonder, at 32, if it makes sense to sign him to a big money multiple year contract, or to use the franchise tag on him.
 
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