2014 Off-Season Additions for the Offense

[supafly]

I didn't say failures , they did pretty good for rookies but the NFL is a win now league. Just like when Denver played Decker and Thomas as rookies it wasn't enough to get the job done.

I'm with you.

They did acceptable jobs under the circumstances, but the actual production was not too good. Perhaps the use of the word "pathetic" production (receptions of 18, 11, and 8 over the last 3 months) was not seen as appropriate from some?

That's a shame, I suppose; that the bar has been dropped so low. Those are totals that were once seen as good 2 and 3 game stretches. We're talking about 2 starters here. The comment wasn't meant (from you or I) to be demeaning to the rookies, but more so of giving another side of things.

I think I'd have seen their production as being more acceptable had we not had to depend solely on them so often. It would have been much better to have seen them blended in with more talent and production, that's all. Like many issues that see disagreements here, the truth often lies in the middle. It will be good to see them step up next year, and many of us expect that to happen.

 

[superpats]

Disregard the boyce b4 trade for a #1 wr. And all xtra boyce. Get home from skitrip tomorrow n have this thing fixed or exchanged. My apologies

 

[supafly]

Spoiled fans. We should go grab Boldin, Fitz and Andre Johnson - I'm sure they'd all take HUGE discounts to be here.

I enjoy many of your thoughts, but all your doing is taking another angle that I presented in terms of the rookie WR ball washing that is occurring by some and attempting to somehow turn that into "being spoiled" etc.

We're allowed to honestly discuss the weaknesses of the team without being seen as some big change has been made to our personalities. I have not once suggested anything about any of the receivers you've mentioned, nor would I (with the exception maybe of Boldin IF he actually hit the market, which I don't believe will happen).

Obviously, anyone suggesting that those WRs you've listed are reasonable offseason choices is only playing fantasy football, and pays no mind to the salary cap; but I don't think that is how the majority feels. I believe most people want to see the position improved upon without one extreme or another, so it's perfectly acceptable to discuss it without being labeled as "spoiled." It's been great to get to those 3 straight AFCCGs, but the reality is also that there's no guarantee of getting back, and that we have come away empty each time.

 

[superpats]

Thats what i been thinking. The bar has dropped. I would like to have Edelman back but not at the expense of missing out on players like Decker,Raji,Wood or Randy Starks. Edelman is product of Brady forcing the dinks n dunks to only experienced wr in the system. We have a slot wr. He is actually more talented than Edelman. He hust needs to stay healthy just like Edelman b4 this yr. If Edelman was that good to be considered a main priority why did they run on ghe 2 pointer. I can garuntee the ball would NEVER been taken out of Brady's hands. They didnt trust ANY wr to beat coverage n catch the ball including Edelman. Dont mind him as #4 option but #3 or 4 is never a top priority. I respect Edelman and would like him back, maybe even b4 amendola but he is already being paid for 2014 and cutting him doesnt change that.

 

[superpats]

Thats exactly y i only mention younger vets that dont have big cap #"s. WR" who are big talented and in need of a change to a winning coach/system and a qb like Brady who can get them the ball like Blackmon,Britt,Maclin,Nicks. The last3 i mentioned pending a workout to be sure injuries havnt robbed them of speed n burst. Wr"s 32 n older like fitz n johnson could likely be in decline like ocho. I think it was more he lost his talent than not learning the system. He was in decline b4 we picked him up,just ask carson palmsr. Ocho didnt do anything in ANY system since. Besides wouldnt u rather have the next ocho or johnson or fitz. Johnson i think has most left of the mentioned vets due to his diet and conditioning. Not only that he was fast enough to lose a step and still be fast enough,but he is getting up there now. Fitz nBoldin i dont think ever had xtra speed to spare some and still be elite. Gordon is my favorite but he would take mallet n a#1pick at least now! After that Blackmon is my favorite. He is much more explosive than scoutin reports said.WOW trust me look up his tape.

 

[superpats]

After watching more of Blackmon Im going out on a limb like i did for Gordon. AfterI said i would have traded a#1 for Josh Gordon or Mallet and a #2 But i suppose Bellichick felt he needed another Hightower or whatever else he gets at end of first rd rather than Josh Gordon.

Again ill say I would trade a #1 for Justin Blackmon. If i had to compare his skillset to another WR i would say a bigger stronger Torry Holt or a slightly smaller Dez Bryant with a lil more long speed than Dez. His fluidity reminds u of ocho a little or a much more explosive Deandre Hopkins would best comparison due to similar size physicality n fluidity but definitely more explosive. I Really see this guy seriously breaking out next yr big time especially with better qb play. AfterThis dude is awesome. Not to say Maclin Britt or Nicks wont fill void nicely pending they prove injuries have not taken thier talent. even cooper could work out great,but this is yet another oppurtunity to take offense to Denver's level or better. I garuntee he is far Better than any wr or te where we pick. Trust me watch some tape you will be impressed.

 

[Sciz]

After watching more of Blackmon Im going out on a limb like i did for Gordon. AfterI said i would have traded a#1 for Josh Gordon or Mallet and a #2 But i suppose Bellichick felt he needed another Hightower or whatever else he gets at end of first rd rather than Josh Gordon.

Again ill say I would trade a #1 for Justin Blackmon. If i had to compare his skillset to another WR i would say a bigger stronger Torry Holt or a slightly smaller Dez Bryant with a lil more long speed than Dez. His fluidity reminds u of ocho a little or a much more explosive Deandre Hopkins would best comparison due to similar size physicality n fluidity but definitely more explosive. I Really see this guy seriously breaking out next yr big time especially with better qb play. AfterThis dude is awesome. Not to say Maclin Britt or Nicks wont fill void nicely pending they prove injuries have not taken thier talent. even cooper could work out great,but this is yet another oppurtunity to take offense to Denver's level or better. I garuntee he is far Better than any wr or te where we pick. Trust me watch some tape you will be impressed.

You're completely ignoring his off-the-field behavior. That alone kills his trade value. He has two DUIs and two substance abuse suspensions. If I'm giving a first round pick for a guy with two suspensions in the last year, he better be 22 year old Tom Brady. Blackmon isn't.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Edelman is product of Brady forcing the dinks n dunks to only experienced wr in the system.

I'd buy this if it weren't for the fact that they were throwing it even more to Welker last year in an offense that also had GRONK, Hernandez, Lloyd, and Woodhead.

No, he's not going to be Randy Moss, but there's room for Edelman in this offense.

 

[superpats]

What theeeeee! You would only trade a first rounder for a young Tom Brady?? I know #1 picks are valuable but come on. You wouldnt trade it for aj green or jimmy graham? How bout Rob Quinn or jj watt, or a young jared allen? How bout Navarr abowman. Our #1 i doubt is going to bare fruit anything like the players i just mentioned and if they have lately we would have couple more lombardi trophies in the case.

And of course b4 the trade there would be an test for drugs and an long interview. He is fa in couple yrs and i think he wants the big contract. Not to mention when your winning with Brady and no nonsense coaches it tends to help a lot of players. He isnt dealing or doing hard drugs he isnt fighting and beating women. Many dudes make mistakes young. Dan Marino fell in the draft..

The guys in the charge And our fans acknowledges for some time we lack impact wr and pass rusher but jj watt and Justin Blackmons rarely come after top 15 picks and teams dont hand them over for third rd picks unless they are over the hill

 

[superpats]

Players fall due to steroids and other concerns. If Belichick doesnt deal the picks in 2009 2010 that became Clay Mstthews and Dez Bryant the team has 5 trophies, Tom has 5 rings and would be almost unanimous best QB ever.

 

[supafly]

Players fall due to steroids and other concerns. If Belichick doesnt deal the picks in 2009 2010 that became Clay Mstthews and Dez Bryant the team has 5 trophies, Tom has 5 rings and would be almost unanimous best QB ever.

Couple of thoughts:

--I think you may be undervaluing the fit of these players into our scheme, not so much with Clay Matthews, but with guys like Dez Bryant, Justin Blackmon, etc. It's very difficult to come to N.England pick up the playbook, master it, and then go out and produce--particularly at the position of WR.

Dez Bryant had to have his own plays thrown it to the Oklahoma St system, because he could not successfully run the entire route tree, nor would he have ever been on the same page as a guy like Brady in this kind of timing system that is based on pre-snap reads, and both WR/QB being on the same page. It can be argued that Bryant would have contributed on some level of course, just due to his talent alone, but we've also seen other good WRs who were very experienced like Galloway, Holt, and Ochocinco all fail just due to the fact that they couldn't get the playbook down.

--Sure, we may not have some of those one pick gambles that you speak of, but we've also accumulated quite a high number of picks physically by trading down, and that has been a huge piece of the rebuilding on the fly puzzle. Belichick took some of the gamble out of the draft by simply choosing more selections. You don't have to look any further than the drafts of '06, '07, or '09 to realize that we weren't getting much out of the draft itself. The idea of choosing more selections has also allowed him to replace and fill more of the needs and positions than he'd ever have been able to do with selecting one pick gambles like a Dez Bryant.

I think your idea is worthy on some level, but just not for the players whom you've been using as examples. Yes, we've failed at the selection of WRs in the draft, but there are probably 20 other better examples of players taken in the first, second, third, and fourth rounds.

 

[ATippett56]

Boy, this loss really got you hard, Fly. The entire tenor of your posts has flipped to cynicism since the Denver loss - almost like certain other posters got your account.

It wasn't me, I will admit.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Players fall due to steroids and other concerns. If Belichick doesnt deal the picks in 2009 2010 that became Clay Mstthews and Dez Bryant the team has 5 trophies, Tom has 5 rings and would be almost unanimous best QB ever.

Is the issue that he dealt the picks or who he selected with the additional picks? His fail isn't dealing the picks, it's not having a time machine to know who to get.

 

[superpats]

I totally agree with u. Only thing i disagree with was something u and i heard. I firmly believe those 3 wr"s were done. Maybe they struggled with scheme but those dudes never produced anyywhere after us. I dont think the organization would say that bout any player was declined to uselessness. I know its complex but i would guess adjustments could be made for a supreme talent.

Thats another reason i like Justin. Coaches at college gave him nod over Dez due to football iq. I really really want him a patriot. I would give Belichick my savings if he made the trade and he flopped. LOL im sure he would laugh.

I know i look desperate to add explosive wr talent but theres good reasons for that. Im tired of manning praises, i mean the dude has had far superior talent at skill position. He should!!!! I live in Baltimore"s federal hill. A trendy ravens central. 7 current and retired ravens live 3 blocks down in new condo highrise. Its tough and even tougher when we lose especially to the ravens. At work u name it. Media blows up ravens steelers but players and fans hate patriots more than anything. I never stop hearing spygate cheaters and Tom Brady is glass diva crybaby and how he cries whenever he is hit begs for penalty flags. They scream that every official in the nfl is out to protect Tom Brady cuz he cant take a hit and officials show him favortism. Im tired of it i want a super bowl title!

 

[supafly]

For me, as I said at the time, I would have keep one more veteran on the roster. But complaining about the production of the rookies seems misplaced. We had five of our receivers injured and we blame the kids for not being to pick up the slack to give us a Top 5 passing offense.

Not meaning it to come off as offensive mg, but I'm starting to think that no one can tell the truth anymore without being charged with "complaining."

The truth was that the rookie wide receivers did about what most expected them to do, which was have two of them catch around 30-35 balls, with another not contributing much of anything, but under the circumstances no one really stepped up to fill the empty void either. Obviously last season created quite an opportunity that wasn't fulfilled by any means.

The MAJOR BULK of Dobson and Thompkins' production came prior to week 6 halfway through the month of October before Halloween, when all of Amendola, Gronkowski, and Vereen were out/injured. After that, well....you know what the rest of the year totals were at 18, 11, and 08. If that is the standard that you expected under circumstances such as what we witnessed, then so be it. You can't however, expect to rightfully call people "complainers" for pointing out the obvious either.

Oh, we did have a top 5 passing offense?

No...for what it's worth, we weren't. The passing offense finished the season ranked 8th at 255.4 ypg on average, with an offensive rushing attack that finished 10th at 129.1 ypg on average.

Either way, your point is still valid. They finished in the top 10, but that was also due to the return of TE Gronkowski and RB Vereen. They were ranked much lower prior to their returns, and had basically no passing attack whatsoever after Gronk went down. It's fine to think of Gronkowski/Vereen as an obvious key to our success, but the subject matter that I was commenting on was the WR corps, specifically.

For the record I am not down or complaining about them. I am however, dispelling the notion that they looked "solid," and "good." The fact was that 2 of our starters didn't top 37 catches, and a 3rd topped his ceiling out at 54. If we're talking specifically about the WR position, it was seriously lacking in the 2013 season. I'd have a hard time understanding how you saw it differently, unless you're going to include the positions of TE (Gronkowski) and RB (Vereen), whose contributions basically saved Tom Brady--because it sure as hell wasn't coming from Dobson, Thompkins, or Boyce after the middle of October, and I shouldn't get criticized for pointing that out that fact.

For the record, I fully believe that Dobson/Boyce (not so sure with Thompkins) are good future receivers to have in terms of youth and speed. I am glad that we chose to address the position for the future, and at worst they'll offer better depth. I'm not however, ready to feel comfortable depending on them all over again without bringing in some additional talent. We'll have to see how it pans out.

 

[Sciz]

What theeeeee! You would only trade a first rounder for a young Tom Brady?? I know #1 picks are valuable but come on. You wouldnt trade it for aj green or jimmy graham? How bout Rob Quinn or jj watt, or a young jared allen? How bout Navarr abowman. Our #1 i doubt is going to bare fruit anything like the players i just mentioned and if they have lately we would have couple more lombardi trophies in the case.

Let's put it this way. Jared Allen was traded for a first and two thirds a few years ago. That was after three DUIs. The differences?

1. Allen was coming off 15.5 sacks in 14 games. Blackmon's career high in yards is 865. You think Blackmon is ready to have a huge year, but Allen actually had done it.

2. Allen "just" drank and drove (not that that's a good thing, but it is to the NFL), while Blackmon has had at least three other substance abuse issues. It takes three substance abuse violations for there to be a suspension. The DUI was likely #1, but #2 and #3 that led to the first suspension were unreported, as was #4 that led to the second suspension.

3. Allen has reportedly been sober since his third DUI. It's completely unknown if Blackmon has committed to any such lifestyle change. After two DUIs, two additional substance abuse violations, and one trip to rehab, did the third substance abuse violation and second trip to rehab flip the switch? We don't know.


So no, what I said is a completely accurate representation of how I feel. The only kind of player I'd take that trade a first round pick for despite all of those off the field issues is the best QB in the NFL.

 

[superpats]

That's why i said The pats need to do their own testing and interviewing of him. Btw Allen went for 2 first rounders, which is the going rate for an impact player in his prime. Once Justin Blackmon has a major breakout, That will be his trade value. That takes him out of our price range just like Josh Gordon now is out of our range. We lost out on him now cuz Bellichick would never give that up for a blue chipper. So that's kinna the point,toThat'san impact gifted WR b4 he has a trouble free breakout season. That's the only way we are ever going to have a true #1 and compete with Denver next yr. Gordon is out of our range forever. After next yr Blackmon will be to.That"s the point To get a supreme talent for a late #1 or #2. Yes Justin is a gamble but for a late #1 really? I would rather take that gamble with Blackmon who you know has the talent to take our offense up several notches than use late#1on some talent deficient wideout who had ZERO chance of being a #1WR. Like a chad jackson or taylor price.

 

[Joker]

Yes Justin is a gamble but for a late #1 really? I would rather take that gamble with Blackmon who you know has the talent to take our offense up several notches than use late#1on some talent deficient wideout who had ZERO chance of being a #1WR. Like a chad jackson or taylor price.

please, for krissakes, just stop this histrionic revisionist history. Taylor Price was a THIRD ROUND PICK. He was a late THIRD ROUND GAMBLE. Chad Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round. He ran a blistering 4.37 at the combine.

As a junior in 2005, Jackson started eleven games and appeared in all twelve.[2] He tied the Gators team record for receptions in a single season with eighty-eight, and led the Southeastern Conference (SEC).[2] Jackson was a first-team All-SEC selection, honorable mention All-American, and was one of fifteen semi-finalists for the Biletnikoff Award in 2005

yeah, he busted out..as a second round pick...YOU never saw this coming. No one did. So don't pound out post after post of these histrionic "Blackmon!!!Blackmon!!!Blackmon!!!" screeds and use totally harebrained misrepresentations of other players to try to make your point.

 

[mgteich]

You well understand the issues. We have Amendola and Dobson. We also have Gronk and Vereen. We'll bring in the JAGs (perhaps including Collie) no matter what, if nothing else to compete with Boyce, Thompkins, Harrison and Moe for backup reps.

The question is whether we should spend serious money for NONE, for ONE, or for TWO receivers; that is 1) no one, 2) Edelman or a downfield receiver, 3) OR Edelman and a downfield receiver.

For the record, I fully believe that Dobson/Boyce (not so sure with Thompkins) are good future receivers to have in terms of youth and speed. I am glad that we chose to address the position for the future, and at worst they'll offer better depth. I'm not however, ready to feel comfortable depending on them all over again without bringing in some additional talent. We'll have to see how it pans out.

 

[Joker]

you realize there is a sudden ,persistent buzz in the media about Tony Gonzalez and the Pats, right?..what do you make of this?...EEI, FAN, NFLN...it's buzzing out there...who's behind it? Gonzo's agent?