Willie McGinest, Leon Gray and Raymond Clayborn named Pats HoF finalists

OhExaulted1 said:

"And people were debating whether the Pats should cut Chris Slade or Willie McGinest in 2000 (and there was plenty of people arguing on both sides). I don't get your point. McGinest was good his first few years, inconsistent for about 5-6 years and really didn't rebound again until he started to play a lot more standing up in 2002. Both players have their warts."

Post #13. How else should I interpret that comment?

Click to expand...

Like you actually read the post. Fact of the matter is that in 2000 many people thought McGinest was done. The Pats needed to cut either Slade or McGinest. There was a lot of debate which one.

The Pats ended up cutting Slade and Willie had a major rebound in production from about 2002 through 2005.

Slade has no right being in the Hall, but if Willie didn't revive his career around 2002, he wouldn't have had a right to be in the Hall either.

I was responding to your post about Gray not deserving to be in because he wasn't here long enough and I mentioned that Willie had his warts too.

I mentioned Slade because it was a coin toss between Slade and McGinest on who should be cut in 2000 which just shows how low McGinest's career was at that time.

Rob0729 said:

Like you actually read the post. Fact of the matter is that in 2000 many people thought McGinest was done. The Pats needed to cut either Slade or McGinest. There was a lot of debate which one.

The Pats ended up cutting Slade and Willie had a major rebound in production from about 2002 through 2005.

Slade has no right being in the Hall, but if Willie didn't revive his career around 2002, he wouldn't have had a right to be in the Hall either.

I was responding to your post about Gray not deserving to be in because he wasn't here long enough and I mentioned that Willie had his warts too.

I mentioned Slade because it was a coin toss between Slade and McGinest on who should be cut in 2000 which just shows how low McGinest's career was at that time.

Click to expand...

The first line of your post is hilarious since I put out 2/3 of your entire post as a retort, but according to you I didn't read.

The fact of the matter is everyone knew Slade was done as a Pete Carroll guy. The debate was minimal at best. This is like arguing "Tommy Hodson was better than Steve Grogan". I won't give you to much crap though because this is how I envision you:

OhExaulted1 said:

Sentimentality? The ALL-TIME leader in postseason sacks. All of them happened as a Patriot. He is Troy Brown and Tedy Bruschi. Just because he went to that dumpster fire in CLE with Romeo for his last 3 seasons for the money doesn't diminish his accomplishments in Foxboro.

He's in. Period. Apologies to RayClay.

Click to expand...

No way that defense in 06 lays down with Willie on the field. Yeah the calls/officiating were bogus but McGinnist would of helped will the defense to victory. Probably in 07 too.

OhExaulted1 said:

The first line of your post is hilarious since I put out 2/3 of your entire post as a retort, but according to you I didn't read.

The fact of the matter is everyone knew Slade was done as a Pete Carroll guy. The debate was minimal at best. This is like arguing "Tommy Hodson was better than Steve Grogan". I won't give you to much crap though because this is how I envision you:

View attachment 9119

Click to expand...

Ok, you obviously confuse cut and paste with read.

Slade was drafted by Parcells in 1993 and played for Belichick in 1996. I don't know how he was a Carrol guy.

But this whole Slade stuff is irrelevant. I only brought up his name to point out the inconsistencies in McGinest's game from around 1997-2001. I am not comparing McGinest to Slade or arguing Slade should be in the Hall. Either you misunderstood my argument or my argument wasn't clear (although my subsequent posts have made it very clear my point wasn't comparing McGinest to Slade).

Again, stop arguing something I didn't argue. My point is clear. All three nominees are worthy. Clay born is probably the best player on the field based on the three nominees. McGinest will probably win because of the years he played and the sentimental impact. Doesn't mean that he isn't worthy. It just means why he will likely win over Gray and Clayborn.

Rob0729 said:

Ok, you obviously confuse cut and paste with read.

Slade was drafted by Parcells in 1993 and played for Belichick in 1996. I don't know how he was a Carrol guy.

But this whole Slade stuff is irrelevant. I only brought up his name to point out the inconsistencies in McGinest's game from around 1997-2001. I am not comparing McGinest to Slade or arguing Slade should be in the Hall. Either you misunderstood my argument or my argument wasn't clear (although my subsequent posts have made it very clear my point wasn't comparing McGinest to Slade).

Again, stop arguing something I didn't argue. My point is clear. All three nominees are worthy. Clay born is probably the best player on the field based on the three nominees. McGinest will probably win because of the years he played and the sentimental impact. Doesn't mean that he isn't worthy. It just means why he will likely win over Gray and Clayborn.

Click to expand...

BTW, you're comparing 2 different guys at 2 positions, which was the argument that made him replaceable. Hell, I thought Todd Collins was better than Slade.

Ray Claiborne gets my vote.
Willie needs to be patient.
Forget Gray.

Clayborn, Adams and Lenkitis should all be in. Mcginist be patient? Should be a double-up year for the red-jacket fraternity for the next 3 or 4. Willie and RayClay this year

Names coming up: Matt Light, Kevin Faulk, Dan Koppen, Richard Seymour, Steven Neal, Joe Andruzzi.

Past stars: 12 year starter at RT from '65-'77 Tom Neville gets no love. 160 GP with 100 starts. Why? Bleed for this franchise you should get recognized. LB Tom Addison was a mainstay for 8 solid years (60-67) from this beleaguered franchises outset. How come he's not considered?

Old-timers throw me some more please. There should be 2 every year indoctrinated. 1 from the recent dynasty and 1 from the old guard.

OhExaulted1 said:

BTW, you're comparing 2 different guys at 2 positions, which was the argument that made him replaceable. Hell, I thought Todd Collins was better than Slade.

Click to expand...

I am comparing two players who were getting paid near the top of the team and not performing up to their contracts where the Pats needed to free up cap space.

It had nothing to do with the position. It had to do with both guys (Slade and McGinest) having big contracts and they needed to cut one for cap room. That was back in the days when teams got into cap hell rather frequently. McGinest's cap hit in 2001 was $4.43 million which was rather large back then. Chris Slade was due $4 million in 2001 which was even larger for his position. The only two other players making more than either of these guys were Bledsoe at an $8.2 million cap hit and Ty Law at a $5 million cap hit.

The cap number for 2001 was around $67 million and both Slade and McGinest took up a large portion of the cap. In this year's cap dollars if they were making the same percentage of the cap as they were back then (just to give some clarity to how much their cap hits meant), McGinest would have a $9.44 or so million cap hit and Slade would have had a $8.52 or so million cap hit. Only Brady, Mayo, and Gronk have higher cap hits this year than Slade would (and Gronk would be making only about $100k more in cap money) and only Brady and Mayo would have higher cap hits than McGinest.

The reason the team had to consider cutting one or both of these guys after the 2000 season was cap reasons. Not because they were redundant players playing the same position.

PatsWickedPissah said:

Ray Claiborne gets my vote.
Willie needs to be patient.
Forget Gray.

Click to expand...

I don't know enough about Gray. My head is voting for Clayborn. My heart is voting for Willie. Willie will win in a landslide though.

Rob0729 said:

I don't know enough about Gray. My head is voting for Clayborn. My heart is voting for Willie. Willie will win in a landslide though.

Click to expand...

Gray was great....for 6 seasons. Loved RayClay. 13 seasons, 36 INT's for us. Spent his last 2 in CLE.

Willie played 12 seasons in NE. 171 games with 146 starts and recorded 484 tackles and 78 sacks in the regular season(s). In his 18 career playoff games, he holds the NFL record of 16 sacks in post-season play.

That's a record that may never get broken. Seriously.

OhExaulted1 said:

Clayborn, Adams and Lenkitis should all be in. Mcginist be patient? Should be a double-up year for the red-jacket fraternity for the next 3 or 4. Willie and RayClay this year

Names coming up: Matt Light, Kevin Faulk, Dan Koppen, Richard Seymour, Steven Neal, Joe Andruzzi.

Past stars: 12 year starter at RT from '65-'77 Tom Neville gets no love. 160 GP with 100 starts. Why? Bleed for this franchise you should get recognized. LB Tom Addison was a mainstay for 8 solid years (60-67) from this beleaguered franchises outset. How come he's not considered?

Old-timers throw me some more please. There should be 2 every year indoctrinated. 1 from the recent dynasty and 1 from the old guard.

Click to expand...

I love Neal and Andruzzzi, but neither should be in the Hall. I am not even sure Faulk, Light, or Koppen should be in. We cannot just put in most of the Belichick era Patriots and ignore the past ones.

A Hall of Fame should be the greatest of the team. Not really good players who were part of the Super Bowl era.

In my mind, the players from the Belichick era who should get in are:

Definite
Brady
Belichick
Willie
Wilfork
Vrabel
Welker
Mankins
Seymour
Gronk
Harrison (I am borderline on this. A special player for 2-3 years and decent the rest due to injuries)

Maybes
Light
Faulk
Moss (too short of period of time)
Milloy (should probably be definite, but the way he left kinda left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. But he was top safety for the mid to late 90s into the 2000s for this team).
Koppen (I guess not much love for centers)


I will leave out the too soon to tell guys.

I may have missed someone(s).

It's funny, but does anyone remember that divisional round game in Jan. '04 when Willie sacked McNair 3 times in sub-zero temps and we won a nail-biter 17-14 to advance to play the "Unbeatable Colts" led by the "Omnipotent Superhuman" Peyton Manning? Anyone remeber how that worked out?

OhExaulted1 said:

Gray was great....for 6 seasons. Loved RayClay. 13 seasons, 36 INT's for us. Spent his last 2 in CLE.

Willie played 12 seasons in NE. 171 games with 146 starts and recorded 484 tackles and 78 sacks in the regular season(s). In his 18 career playoff games, he holds the NFL record of 16 sacks in post-season play.

That's a record that may never get broken. Seriously.

Click to expand...

Again, you are only hyping the good parts of McGinest and not the bad. You refuse to admit that he was so mediocre on this team at the tail end of the Carroll era and the start of the Belichick era, that he was a potential cut and he wouldn't have set the post season sack record. I love Willie, but that is the fact. It was his bad issues where Belichick saved his career by allowing him to do a lot of two point stances in a 3-4 that resurrected his career.

BTW, about the record, yes it is an impressive record. But just so you know, Suggs is only 3.5 sacks away from that record, LaMar Woodley is 5 sacks away, and Clay Matthews is 7.5 sacks away. All those guys have a shot at tying or breaking the record.

Again, you are twisting everything I am saying anyway. I never said that Willie wasn't deserving. I just said what sets him apart is the era and the sentimentality.

Rob0729 said:

I love Neal and Andruzzzi, but neither should be in the Hall. I am not even sure Faulk, Light, or Koppen should be in. We cannot just put in most of the Belichick era Patriots and ignore the past ones.

A Hall of Fame should be the greatest of the team. Not really good players who were part of the Super Bowl era.

In my mind, the players from the Belichick era who should get in are:

Definite
Brady
Belichick
Willie
Wilfork
Vrabel
Welker
Mankins
Seymour
Gronk
Harrison (I am borderline on this. A special player for 2-3 years and decent the rest due to injuries)

Maybes
Light
Faulk
Moss (too short of period of time)
Milloy (should probably be definite, but the way he left kinda left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. But he was top safety for the mid to late 90s into the 2000s for this team).
Koppen (I guess not much love for centers)


I will leave out the too soon to tell guys.

I may have missed someone(s).

Click to expand...

I'm not trying to be an a-hole and call you out Rob. List is good for the guys coming up. I just hope some of the guys from the past make the cut. I went to Drew Bledsoe's induction, which also included Jon Morris, who was a 6-time AFL All-Star Center and that was so awesome.

So many guys are going to get in with this dynasty run. I hope Mr. Kraft includes an old-timer every time this happens. From what I know he's been a season ticket holder since 1971. This makes me love being a PatsFan

Rob0729 said:

Again, you are only hyping the good parts of McGinest and not the bad. You refuse to admit that he was so mediocre on this team at the tail end of the Carroll era and the start of the Belichick era, that he was a potential cut and he wouldn't have set the post season sack record. I love Willie, but that is the fact. It was his bad issues where Belichick saved his career by allowing him to do a lot of two point stances in a 3-4 that resurrected his career.

BTW, about the record, yes it is an impressive record. But just so you know, Suggs is only 3.5 sacks away from that record, LaMar Woodley is 5 sacks away, and Clay Matthews is 7.5 sacks away. All those guys have a shot at tying or breaking the record.

Again, you are twisting everything I am saying anyway. I never said that Willie wasn't deserving. I just said what sets him apart is the era and the sentimentality.

Click to expand...

Suggs, Woodley and Matthews? Nice research. Can't ***** about that.

I just think Willie earned his Red-Jacket and he deserves a day. The stadium will be alive with praise and adulation, and it is well deserved.

The greatest thing Willie has ever said in front of Mah Shall Flop about taping the "walkthrough"was:

“If … we had any extra information, then that game wouldn’t have been as dramatic as it was, coming down to a field goal. Trust me. It would have been a blowout,” McGinest said, via CSNNewEngland.com.


With that statement Mr. McGinest, welcome to the New England Patriots Hall Of Fame, and here is your Red Jacket.

OhExaulted1 said:

I'm not trying to be an a-hole and call you out Rob. List is good for the guys coming up. I just hope some of the guys from the past make the cut. I went to Drew Bledsoe's induction, which also included Jon Morris, who was a 6-time AFL All-Star Center and that was so awesome.

So many guys are going to get in with this dynasty run. I hope Mr. Kraft includes an old-timer every time this happens. From what I know he's been a season ticket holder since 1971. This makes me love being a PatsFan

Click to expand...

Morris was part of the legacy selections. Different animal.

OhExaulted1 said:

Suggs, Woodley and Matthews? Nice research. Can't ***** about that.

I just think Willie earned his Red-Jacket and he deserves a day. The stadium will be alive with praise and adulation, and it is well deserved.

The greatest thing Willie has ever said in front of Mah Shall Flop about taping the "walkthrough"was:

“If … we had any extra information, then that game wouldn’t have been as dramatic as it was, coming down to a field goal. Trust me. It would have been a blowout,” McGinest said, via CSNNewEngland.com.


With that statement Mr. McGinest, welcome to the New England Patriots Hall Of Fame, and here is your Red Jacket.

Click to expand...

I don't think Willie doesn't deserve a jacket. He does. He will this year. I am just saying he has an advantage because he is a sentimental favorite and he is from the current era and most of the people voting either are too young to remember/know the other guys and/or have short memories.

That was my only point. I really didn't want to try to tear Willie down by making that point. McGinest is one of my favorite players. I was just pointing out how the decks are stacked in his favor on the voting. Doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to get in.

Rob0729 said:

I don't think Willie doesn't deserve a jacket. He does. He will this year. I am just saying he has an advantage because he is a sentimental favorite and he is from the current era and most of the people voting either are too young to remember/know the other guys and/or have short memories.

That was my only point. I really didn't want to try to tear Willie down by making that point. McGinest is one of my favorite players. I was just pointing out how the decks are stacked in his favor on the voting. Doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to get in.

Click to expand...

You're point, from what I can extrapolate, is don't forget about guys like Raymond Clayborn who played there hearts out for this team before we had trophy's.

I commend you for that. Raymond Clayborn should wear a Red Jacket as well and should have his name stamped anywhere and everywhere next to Ty Law and Micheal Haynes. I watched him in the '80's. He was as good ballhawk as there was.

Side note: Mr Kraft, please expand your HOF and update the movies. It'll only cost you like.......whatever.....you'll make a ton and your fans will love it. Patriots Place is a city. Should have it's own seperate zip code.

Someone with a good sense of humor give me a winner pin for this post.