POLL: Patriots HoF Finalists, Pick your poison

[pazrul72]

Listen bro, if you have "evidence" that "for the 2 weeks before the superbowl from his hotel room, Parcells spent a couple of hours a day on the phone with Jets HQ" then I will entirely retract my support of Parcells for the Patriots HOF. So far your source is someone you can't remember who allegedly had phone records. Who was it and where are these phone records?

This isn't the first time I've heard about these phone records but I don't recall seeing anything that amounted to "evidence." Two hours per day for two weeks is pretty specific... if it's accurate then there's got to be something you can show me.

This is from Boston.com

“To this day, Parcells denies communicating with the New York Jets during that Super Bowl runup. His hotel phone records suggest otherwise, as did his longtime deputy, who’d first joined the Patriots at Parcells’s behest in February 1996 as assistant head coach.

“Yeah, I’d say it was a little bit of a distraction all the way around,” Bill Belichick told Holley in ‘Patriot Reign’. “I can tell you firsthand, there was a lot of stuff going on prior to the game. I mean, him talking to other teams. He was trying to make up his mind about what he wanted to do. Which, honestly, I felt totally inappropriate. How many chances do you get to play for the Super Bowl? Tell them to get back to you in a couple of days.”

this one is from the LA times.

“A tie between Parcells and the Jets had been the worst-kept secret of the last season, with reports coming out of New York and New England as early as October that Rich Kotite would be fired by the Jets and replaced by Parcells. Parcells tried to put to rest the stories during the season, in which he coached the Patriots to a 35-21 Super Bowl loss to the Green Bay Packers, but they flared during Super Bowl week when his agent, Robert Fraley, told a Boston reporter the deal was done.”

I do find it odd that icant find the actual original report from Will McDonough? I think? But the point is enough people have said it I believe it happened. I don’t care how bad the work environment is, you only get so many chances at a friggin Super Bowl, you spend every bit of spare energy you have trying to win it. To your point was it the sole reason they lost the game? Hell no, Bledsoe did play like poop, they didn’t run Martin enough, and DEFUQ were you thinking kicking to that guy and not having Troy Brown on your coverage team. They did enough they deserved to lose, but it was close enough and Parcells behavior egregious enough to make you wonder. That for me is enough to say HELL NO he does not belong in the Patriot HOF.

 

[crawhammer]

This is from Boston.com

“To this day, Parcells denies communicating with the New York Jets during that Super Bowl runup. His hotel phone records suggest otherwise, as did his longtime deputy, who’d first joined the Patriots at Parcells’s behest in February 1996 as assistant head coach.

“Yeah, I’d say it was a little bit of a distraction all the way around,” Bill Belichick told Holley in ‘Patriot Reign’. “I can tell you firsthand, there was a lot of stuff going on prior to the game. I mean, him talking to other teams. He was trying to make up his mind about what he wanted to do. Which, honestly, I felt totally inappropriate. How many chances do you get to play for the Super Bowl? Tell them to get back to you in a couple of days.”

this one is from the LA times.

“A tie between Parcells and the Jets had been the worst-kept secret of the last season, with reports coming out of New York and New England as early as October that Rich Kotite would be fired by the Jets and replaced by Parcells. Parcells tried to put to rest the stories during the season, in which he coached the Patriots to a 35-21 Super Bowl loss to the Green Bay Packers, but they flared during Super Bowl week when his agent, Robert Fraley, told a Boston reporter the deal was done.”

I do find it odd that icant find the actual original report from Will McDonough? I think? But the point is enough people have said it I believe it happened. I don’t care how bad the work environment is, you only get so many chances at a friggin Super Bowl, you spend every bit of spare energy you have trying to win it. To your point was it the sole reason they lost the game? Hell no, Bledsoe did play like poop, they didn’t run Martin enough, and DEFUQ were you thinking kicking to that guy and not having Troy Brown on your coverage team. They did enough they deserved to lose, but it was close enough and Parcells behavior egregious enough to make you wonder. That for me is enough to say HELL NO he does not belong in the Patriot HOF.

I agree it seems probable conversations were happening between Parcells and the Jets prior to the Super Bowl but the extent of those conversations is much less certain. Two hours daily for two weeks seems like a definite exaggeration.

Was Parcells distracted from SB preparation? I would say marginally but I think the distraction for the players was probably even less. They were an overmatched team to begin with and then they got the far worse QB play in the game which resulted in a 0-4 turnover margin. That they were within 6 late in the 3rd quarter is a minor miracle. Even after the KO return they had 5 offensive possessions and Bledsoe did nothing with them (except throw more picks).

 

[Chevy]

From 1993 to 1996, Parcells built a very good football team. Much of his work over those years led to BB inheriting some crucial players for the early years. We cannot forget this.

That said, like a petulant child losing at a board game, he cheated and flipped the board on his way out the door. I cannot forgive this. Had Parcells stayed, and did everything he could to win, the 1997 Patriots would have been even better.

Instead, we had three years of Pete, a yearly drop in performance and discipline, and a lot of disappointment.

Thankfully, as fans, we got to experience 20 years of greatness - but that doesn't cancel out what happened at the end of the 96-97 season. At all.

 

[Pape]

Listen bro, if you have "evidence" that "for the 2 weeks before the superbowl from his hotel room, Parcells spent a couple of hours a day on the phone with Jets HQ" then I will entirely retract my support of Parcells for the Patriots HOF. So far your source is someone you can't remember who allegedly had phone records. Who was it and where are these phone records?

This isn't the first time I've heard about these phone records but I don't recall seeing anything that amounted to "evidence." Two hours per day for two weeks is pretty specific... if it's accurate then there's got to be something you can show me.

That particular tidbit about the phone calls comes from Patriot Reign by Michael Holley... Supposedly the Pats had/have Parcells itemized phone bill from XXXI...

Whether or not there were hour long convos between tuna and the jete is irrelevant... The rumors that the tuna is leaving... tuna bought out his deal... Kraft was gonna fire him... etc ... those rumors were quickly followed by tuna to the jete rumors ... those had been running rampant for half a year iirc... And if you think Will McDonough was a credible source (He was) the bitter split was fueled by both Parcells & Kraft planting stories in the press...

It was ugly.

 

[Pape]

I do find it odd that icant find the actual original report from Will McDonough? I think?

I doubt Will McDonough would have published that... He and Parcells were tight

 

[TheRainMaker]

Had Parcells stayed, and did everything he could to win, the 1997 Patriots would have been even better.

How far do they go though? They would've needed Parcells to strike gold again in the draft to have a chance to compete against Denver who beat them down again in 1997. Had Curtis Martin not been injured, they would've beat down the Steelers in the regular season, secured the #2 seed and met Denver in the AFCCG with Carroll.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

This is from Boston.com

“To this day, Parcells denies communicating with the New York Jets during that Super Bowl runup. His hotel phone records suggest otherwise, as did his longtime deputy, who’d first joined the Patriots at Parcells’s behest in February 1996 as assistant head coach.

“Yeah, I’d say it was a little bit of a distraction all the way around,” Bill Belichick told Holley in ‘Patriot Reign’. “I can tell you firsthand, there was a lot of stuff going on prior to the game. I mean, him talking to other teams. He was trying to make up his mind about what he wanted to do. Which, honestly, I felt totally inappropriate. How many chances do you get to play for the Super Bowl? Tell them to get back to you in a couple of days.”

this one is from the LA times.

“A tie between Parcells and the Jets had been the worst-kept secret of the last season, with reports coming out of New York and New England as early as October that Rich Kotite would be fired by the Jets and replaced by Parcells. Parcells tried to put to rest the stories during the season, in which he coached the Patriots to a 35-21 Super Bowl loss to the Green Bay Packers, but they flared during Super Bowl week when his agent, Robert Fraley, told a Boston reporter the deal was done.”

I do find it odd that I can't find the actual original report from Will McDonough? I think? But the point is enough people have said it I believe it happened. I don’t care how bad the work environment is, you only get so many chances at a friggin Super Bowl, you spend every bit of spare energy you have trying to win it. To your point was it the sole reason they lost the game? Hell no, Bledsoe did play like poop, they didn’t run Martin enough, and DEFUQ were you thinking kicking to that guy and not having Troy Brown on your coverage team. They did enough they deserved to lose, but it was close enough and Parcells behavior egregious enough to make you wonder. That for me is enough to say HELL NO he does not belong in the Patriot HOF.

Report: Parcells will leave Patriots

BOSTON (AP) _ The Bill Parcells era with the New England Patriots, a four-year reign in which he took the team from a 2-14 record to the Super Bowl, will end after Sunday's title game, according to a published report.

apnews.com

"After the Patriots beat Jacksonville in the AFC championship game, Kraft praised him as the greatest coach in modern football history. Parcells, standing nearby, appeared touched."

Guys, after three decades are we catching on to Robert Kraft's act?

BLEDSOE’S RECORD DEAL: 10 YEARS, $103 MILLION

With Greater Boston besieged by swirling winds and heavy snow, hundreds of flights into Logan Airport were canceled or diverted earlier this week. But not Drew Bledsoe’s, which left Montana o…

www.courant.com

"Kraft also said Bledsoe has a chance to be remembered in Boston like Ted Williams, Bill Russell and Larry Bird, each having played his entire career in the city.

“'I remember feeling sad when Bobby Orr left,' Kraft said of the NHL Hall of Famer who left Boston for Chicago near the end of his career. 'I saw this as an opportunity to sign one of the great Patriots for the rest of his career.'”

Um, where was this initiative and proactiveness in August of 2019? Defer to Belichick? This might be Kraft's second stupidest decision behind keeping the flying elvis.

"Bledsoe’s new deal, which voids the last year of his previous contract, saves the Patriots, who were $2 million under the salary cap, an additional $1.5 million. And, it was signed in time to help the Patriots during the free agent signing period, which began last Friday."

At least Belichick did hit it out of the park in free agency, which set up the first title.

 

[crawhammer]

That particular tidbit about the phone calls comes from Patriot Reign by Michael Holley... Supposedly the Pats had/have Parcells itemized phone bill from XXXI...

Whether or not there were hour long convos between tuna and the jete is irrelevant... The rumors that the tuna is leaving... tuna bought out his deal... Kraft was gonna fire him... etc ... those rumors were quickly followed by tuna to the jete rumors ... those had been running rampant for half a year iirc... And if you think Will McDonough was a credible source (He was) the bitter split was fueled by both Parcells & Kraft planting stories in the press...

It was ugly.

No doubt. However, the team lost SB 31 because they got significantly outplayed at QB. It's irrefutable, just look at the numbers:

Favre: 107.9 passer rating, 3 TDs, 0 turnovers
Bledsoe: 46.6 passer rating, 2 TDs, 4 turnovers

You can't overcome a disparity in QB play like that in a Super Bowl.

Whatever phones call were made by Parcells prior to the Super Bowl were unknown to the players at the time. While Parcells may have been marginally distracted, I'm not attributing the play of the players (particularly of Bledsoe) to any rumors about Parcells.

I think Parcells is an all time top 4 NFL head coach (and HC/GM). He made the Patriots franchise relevant again in the 1990's with a young mistake-prone immobile quarterback. Carroll and Belichick only got diminishing returns from Bledsoe. Ultimately Belichick had such little regard for Bledsoe as a quarterback that he made sure to keep him in the division.

I think there's a strong argument for Parcells to be in the Patriots HOF. His player personnel contributions to the Patriots Dynasty 1.0 is nearly reason enough. Of the three candidates this year, he's the clear choice.

 

[Ivan]

Love Vrabel, but Mankins was a HOF caliber guard. Apparently this is just a popularity contest, and not a real vote for the best candidate.

 

[pazrul72]

I doubt Will McDonough would have published that... He and Parcells were tight

That’s why I added the question mark. And the I think. I freely admit my memory of it isn’t the best so didn’t want to state it as fact. I don’t remember who the reporter was, it was 26 years ago And I was 13. I do remember there being a report with a photo showing how many times he called a NJ number and it being a lot. 3 mins here 10 mins there but like 8-12 calls a day all week. I’m not doing hours of google digging, so I just left it at I do find it odd it’s not the first thing I found in the 5 mins of googling I did. For me personally it doesn’t matter if it did or didn’t distract the players. There is no way Parcells was giving 100% to winning a Super Bowl. Anything more then thank you for your interest I will get back to you in a week is enough for me to say you don’t belong in the patriot HOF.

 

[Pape]

You can't overcome a disparity in QB play like that in a Super Bowl.

and who's to say whether or not Beldsoe was adversely affected by the issue?

Whatever phones call were made by Parcells prior to the Super Bowl were unknown to the players at the time. While Parcells may have been marginally distracted, I'm not attributing the play of the players (particularly of Bledsoe) to any rumors about Parcells.

That's just not true though. Leading up the to game Dave Megget said it best, and I quote him:
"I'm getting questions in the supermarket, the dry cleaners, wherever I go," Meggett said. "I can't control Bill Parcells. Bill Parcells controls Bill Parcells. Whatever he decides to do will be the best thing for him and his family. Me and everyone else will have to live with it."

RUMORS SWIRLING THAT PARCELLS WILL LEAVE PATS

Bill Parcells stood defiantly on the podium. His jaw muscles flexed, his eyes brimmed with an anger that seemed on the verge of boiling over. Here he was, just six days away from the Super Bowl, and everyone wanted to know what he's going to do the day after the game. Will Parcells remain...

www.deseret.com

Drew Bledsoe knew he was gone... How doesnt that have an impact? Drew said, before The Game, said to Parcells
'Hey, it's been a great experience playing for you. I'm glad I've had the opportunity to play for you.'

Parcells declines comment about leaving When pressed, Pats coach refuses to talk about rumored move to Jets; SUPER BOWL XXXI

NEW ORLEANS — Will he stay or will he go? New England coach Bill Parcells barely had begun to digest his first Super Bowl loss when the questions bombarded him. After a week in which reports …

www.baltimoresun.com

You can go on about the play of the players, no one is going to disagree with you on that... It could have been much better, no doubt.

But what you cant do is unequivocally deny the negative impact it had on the team, which is exactly what you are trying to do...

The Parcells will he or wont he drama was wild fire... you could feel it in the air... in the stadium... on every sports center... in every news column... It was (almost) non-stop... In a day when access to information, players, teams, reporters etc wasn't as ubiquitous as it is today, it was ever present... If you don't believe me, ask the other guys here who were fans of the team before 2001... There are a lot of them here...

Im trying to keep my commentary on this fairly even keeled, so please, try to take it that way... There is a historical context here that you are missing... Its apparent you don't have an understanding of that time / place, and it something that transcends the stats you see on the page... You need to stop looking at just the numbers in some cases because they don't tell the whole story... There was a palapable sense of betrayal on his part... That's why Parcells gets the push back that he does... Thats why there are so many people vehemently opposed to his nomination, let alone his inclusion in the Patriots HoF finalist vote...

Parcells is Hall of Fame Coach.

Parcells is not a Patriots Hall of Fame Coach, any more than Chuck Fairbanks is, who did basically the same damn thing.

 

[pazrul72]

Love Vrabel, but Mankins was a HOF caliber guard. Apparently this is just a popularity contest, and not a real vote for the best candidate.

This all depends on your criteria. If you are taking about who was the best player, who won the most awards at his position, and had the best stats (I know guards don’t really have stats but you know what I mean) then yeah Mankins is the absolute no brainer choice, and would get my vote. However there are a large number of people that remember “plays” and those important game changing moments you think about when going over Super Bowl wins. Vrabel has a ton of them where as my biggest Super Bowl memory of Mankins is getting run by as Brady was getting hit for the 15th time. Vrabel has 3 rings while Mankins has zero. It’s the Welker/Edelman debate just at different positions. Personally I’m taking Welker but I understand, just violently disagree with, why some people would argue JE11 was the better receiver.

 

[crawhammer]

and who's to say whether or not Bledsoe was adversely affected by the issue?

His postseason career. He never played well in the postseason. Not once. 6 starts, 5 TDs, and 15 turnovers. Check out these passer ratings: 38.3, 58.3, 62.4, 46.6, 72.3, and 51.7. Bledsoe's issue was himself. Not Parcells.

That's just not true though. Leading up the to game Dave Megget said it best, and I quote him:
"I'm getting questions in the supermarket, the dry cleaners, wherever I go," Meggett said. "I can't control Bill Parcells. Bill Parcells controls Bill Parcells. Whatever he decides to do will be the best thing for him and his family. Me and everyone else will have to live with it."

RUMORS SWIRLING THAT PARCELLS WILL LEAVE PATS

Bill Parcells stood defiantly on the podium. His jaw muscles flexed, his eyes brimmed with an anger that seemed on the verge of boiling over. Here he was, just six days away from the Super Bowl, and everyone wanted to know what he's going to do the day after the game. Will Parcells remain...

www.deseret.com

Drew Bledsoe knew he was gone... How doesnt that have an impact? Drew said, before The Game, said to Parcells
'Hey, it's been a great experience playing for you. I'm glad I've had the opportunity to play for you.'

Parcells declines comment about leaving When pressed, Pats coach refuses to talk about rumored move to Jets; SUPER BOWL XXXI

NEW ORLEANS — Will he stay or will he go? New England coach Bill Parcells barely had begun to digest his first Super Bowl loss when the questions bombarded him. After a week in which reports …

www.baltimoresun.com

You can go on about the play of the players, no one is going to disagree with you on that... It could have been much better, no doubt.

But what you cant do is unequivocally deny the negative impact it had on the team, which is exactly what you are trying to do...

The Parcells will he or wont he drama was wild fire... you could feel it in the air... in the stadium... on every sports center... in every news column... It was (almost) non-stop... In a day when access to information, players, teams, reporters etc wasn't as ubiquitous as it is today, it was ever present... If you don't believe me, ask the other guys here who were fans of the team before 2001... There are a lot of them here...

Im trying to keep my commentary on this fairly even keeled, so please, try to take it that way... There is a historical context here that you are missing... Its apparent you don't have an understanding of that time / place, and it something that transcends the stats you see on the page... You need to stop looking at just the numbers in some cases because they don't tell the whole story... There was a palapable sense of betrayal on his part... That's why Parcells gets the push back that he does... Thats why there are so many people vehemently opposed to his nomination, let alone his inclusion in the Patriots HoF finalist vote...

I respect what you're saying and I'm not trying to change your mind. I could be underplaying the pre-game distractions related to Parcells but also it's the Super Bowl which is surrounded by a circus atmosphere and a thousand inherent distractions. Players have to be professionals and overcome the enormity of the moment and play within themselves. My contention is Bledsoe couldn't handle it, ever, he consistently fell to pieces in the postseason. Still the Patriots had the lead after the 1st quarter of SB 31 and they were only down 6 late in the 3rd quarter. The KO return was a backbreaker and then the offense was completely inept in the final quarter. The better team with the much better QB play won. No surprise there.

 

[Steve102]

and who's to say whether or not Bledsoe was adversely affected by the issue?

This is my beef with it. I think Parcells was super distracted, and, likely, annoyed by the fact that he got Kraft to the SB. I have maintained that if Parcells had any modicum of professionality, he would have told all these other teams to wait, as Belichick suggests in Holley's book. But the Jete had an opportunity to get their guy and sabotage the Pats SB plans in the process. I think if Parcells gave 100%, perhaps there may have been a coaching point that was uncovered that might have helped Bledsoe directly or altered the game plan enough to make a difference in the game. We will never know for certain.

No way he gets a red jacket.

 

[Pape]

His postseason career. He never played well in the postseason. Not once. 6 starts, 5 TDs, and 15 turnovers. Check out these passer ratings: 38.3, 58.3, 62.4, 46.6, 72.3, and 51.7. Bledsoe's issue was himself. Not Parcells.


I respect what you're saying and I'm not trying to change your mind. I could be underplaying the pre-game distractions related to Parcells but also it's the Super Bowl which is surrounded by a circus atmosphere and a thousand inherent distractions. Players have to be professionals and overcome the enormity of the moment and play within themselves. My contention is Bledsoe couldn't handle it, ever, he consistently fell to pieces in the postseason. Still the Patriots had the lead after the 1st quarter of SB 31 and they were only down 6 late in the 3rd quarter. The KO return was a backbreaker and then the offense was completely inept in the final quarter. The better team with the much better QB play won. No surprise there.

Drew had his flaws. No doubt. No one, including me - whose favorite NEP QB of all time is Drew Bledsoe - is arguing otherwise.

And yeah Green Bay was a better team. No doubt. But the better team doesn't always win. Something we all have experienced x3...

But the underdog doesn't stand a chance if there is nothing but chaos leading up to the game ... And that falls directly on the shoulders of one Bill Parcels in this instance...

 

[Pape]

This is my beef with it. I think Parcells was super distracted, and, likely, annoyed by the fact that he got Kraft to the SB. I have maintained that if Parcells had any modicum of professionality, he would have told all these other teams to wait, as Belichick suggests in Holley's book. But the Jete had an opportunity to get their guy and sabotage the Pats SB plans in the process. I think if Parcells gave 100%, perhaps there may have been a coaching point that was uncovered that might have helped Bledsoe directly or altered the game plan enough to make a difference in the game. We will never know for certain.

No way he gets a red jacket.

found this article... you pretty much get a bullseye... the tension between him and Kraft kept getting ratcheted up over the course of the season...
Will McDonough lays it out in this article...

Boston Globe Online / Top Sports Stories of the Year, 1997

Can't see how it didn't have an impact...

 

[Steve102]

found this article... you pretty much get a bullseye... the tension between him and Kraft kept getting ratcheted up over the course of the season...
Will McDonough lays it out in this article...

Boston Globe Online / Top Sports Stories of the Year, 1997

Can't see how it didn't have an impact...

I can see Parcells going "eff that guy" and not putting out his best effort. Kraft, IMO, deserved it. He was meddling and didn't learn his lesson. Reading that brings it all back to the surface. What a horrible mess it was.

 

[Ivan]

This all depends on your criteria. If you are taking about who was the best player, who won the most awards at his position, and had the best stats (I know guards don’t really have stats but you know what I mean) then yeah Mankins is the absolute no brainer choice, and would get my vote. However there are a large number of people that remember “plays” and those important game changing moments you think about when going over Super Bowl wins. Vrabel has a ton of them where as my biggest Super Bowl memory of Mankins is getting run by as Brady was getting hit for the 15th time. Vrabel has 3 rings while Mankins has zero. It’s the Welker/Edelman debate just at different positions. Personally I’m taking Welker but I understand, just violently disagree with, why some people would argue JE11 was the better receiver.

Pretty hard to make memorable plays as a guard. Mankins is HOF worthy, Vrabel is Patriots HOF worthy. Unfortunately it’s just a popularity contest, and not a true gauge of the players/ nominees careers. I’m a big fan of Vrabel, but this is just wrong.

 

[Ivan]

This all depends on your criteria. If you are taking about who was the best player, who won the most awards at his position, and had the best stats (I know guards don’t really have stats but you know what I mean) then yeah Mankins is the absolute no brainer choice, and would get my vote. However there are a large number of people that remember “plays” and those important game changing moments you think about when going over Super Bowl wins. Vrabel has a ton of them where as my biggest Super Bowl memory of Mankins is getting run by as Brady was getting hit for the 15th time. Vrabel has 3 rings while Mankins has zero. It’s the Welker/Edelman debate just at different positions. Personally I’m taking Welker but I understand, just violently disagree with, why some people would argue JE11 was the better receiver.

I think Welker is more deserving than Vrabel, but Edelman is more deserving to be in the Patriots HOF than Welker, but both belong there.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

No doubt. However, the team lost SB 31 because they got significantly outplayed at QB. It's irrefutable, just look at the numbers:

Favre: 107.9 passer rating, 3 TDs, 0 turnovers
Bledsoe: 46.6 passer rating, 2 TDs, 4 turnovers

You can't overcome a disparity in QB play like that in a Super Bowl.

Whatever phones call were made by Parcells prior to the Super Bowl were unknown to the players at the time. While Parcells may have been marginally distracted, I'm not attributing the play of the players (particularly of Bledsoe) to any rumors about Parcells.

I think Parcells is an all time top 4 NFL head coach (and HC/GM). He made the Patriots franchise relevant again in the 1990's with a young mistake-prone immobile quarterback. Carroll and Belichick only got diminishing returns from Bledsoe. Ultimately Belichick had such little regard for Bledsoe as a quarterback that he made sure to keep him in the division.

I think there's a strong argument for Parcells to be in the Patriots HOF. His player personnel contributions to the Patriots Dynasty 1.0 is nearly reason enough. Of the three candidates this year, he's the clear choice.

Agree, but it's not Drew's fault Perkins and Parcells put him in a position to lose.

They utterly gave up on the run because Curtis got stopped a couple times and they were behind on the scoreboard. And they obviously thought much more of Drew's ability than he had. It was as stupid as starting Eason over a healthy and active Grogan or Flutie.