The ineligible package...

in 12 we trust · Jan 11, 2015

Ravens have no excuse on "illegal" formation

The Ravens could have called a timeout (like most teams do) when they see something unusual. Why didn't the media ask Harbaugh why he didn't do that when he saw that look? Why did he wait until Hoomanawanui catches a few passes to react?

I am pretty confident that NFL coaches get paid well for coaching this game. It is all they do, coach football. And not just one coach on a team, many coaches by position. So maybe along the way, they should read the rules and be prepared to handle any situation that is presented to them.

Do Your Job!

manxman2601 · Jan 11, 2015

Doug Kyed notes on twitter that Vereen still had to be covered on the play because he can take a lateral pass. If that's the case, it seems like a genius play that I'm surprised doesn't get used more often. So long as you have a QB that can read a defence and get the ball out quickly you're almost guaranteed to find a mismatch somewhere.

unoriginal · Jan 11, 2015

manxman2601 said:
Doug Kyed notes on twitter that Vereen still had to be covered on the play because he can take a lateral pass. If that's the case, it seems like a genius play that I'm surprised doesn't get used more often. So long as you have a QB that can read a defence and get the ball out quickly you're almost guaranteed to find a mismatch somewhere.

Vereen would be traveling back upfield to catch that lateral, and if it were batted or dropped it would be a fumble. Most bubble screens have the receiver moving towards the LOS to (a) increase the chance for YAC and (b) reduce the possibility of a turnover.

Even without close coverage it would be very difficult for Vereen to turn that into a positive play, because he'd start four yards behind the line with his momentum the wrong way and unable to see downfield. The defense could probably ignore him and just pursue and contain if the ball does go to him.

manxman2601 · Jan 11, 2015

unoriginal said:
Vereen would be traveling back upfield to catch that lateral, and if it were batted or dropped it would be a fumble. Most bubble screens have the receiver moving towards the LOS to (a) increase the chance for YAC and (b) reduce the possibility of a turnover.

Even without close coverage it would be very difficult for Vereen to turn that into a positive play, because he'd start four yards behind the line with his momentum the wrong way and unable to see downfield. The defense could probably ignore him and just pursue and contain if the ball does go to him.

It depends on who's covering him. If they mistakenly put a DE on him then you have a mismatch and if they put a linebacker, safety etc on him, someone else is uncovered or covered by a big guy. I'm not saying that the fact that Vereen can catch the lateral means that you need to throw it to him, just that the very risk that that can happen means there's a mismatch somewhere on the field.

imagine if the lions did the same to us but instead of Vereen you have Reggie Bush and instead of Hooman you have Ebron. Who covers who? Chandler jones or Ninkovich ends up with one of them because you certainly don't leave Bush uncovered.

unoriginal · Jan 11, 2015

What I'm saying is that you could just zone it and attack it with the alley and flat defenders. It would be a very slow-developing "quick" play.

sambam94 · Jan 11, 2015

I'm finding it amusing how some in the media are using this as another way to hate on the Pats. As a Pats fan, coming up with ways within the rule book to deceive the opponent, I find to be brilliant. That's what great coaches do. So much jealously out there.

juny · Jan 11, 2015

TBR said:
The play is in the Madden or NCAA video games

Someone should post this on the Ravens message boards.

manxman2601 · Jan 11, 2015

juny said:
Someone should post this on the Ravens message boards.

Someone should gift the game to Harbaugh.

RayClay · Jan 11, 2015

This is very confusing for the defense, because somebody from a position that normally doesn't sprint downfield is all of a sudden an eligible receiver. This is the exact same play Alabama ran in overtime to beat LSU, hitting a large lineman in stride:

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/1/...-trick-play-that-got-john-harbaugh-mad-ravens

We just made Hooman an apparent, but not actual O Lineman. For all his shortcomings, the guy has very soft hands.

RayClay · Jan 11, 2015

stinkypete said:
I'm calling BS on this. Does anyone really think the entire offense was able to draw this up on the fly? Patriots players don't expose their practice details to the media like that. Sounds like LaFell is just playing with the media on this.

Belichick always speaks of "situational football," and last night was the ultimate case of situational football. Down late in the game to a physical team with a dominant front 7 and weak DBs, down one offensive lineman, how are you going to move the chains? Keep the opponent from knowing who is eligible. I bet they've been sitting on this one for some time now.

Yet another reason why Belichick is the GOAT.

I think this sounds like a story but, there's really nothing to practice. Vereen tells the refs and stands on the line. Hooman is a TE going out for a pass, he just looks like the left tackle to the defense. the only unusual aspect is solder is standing next to the center. Of course the center's played guard (though the other side mostly, i think) but still...

PatriotSeven · Jan 11, 2015

Nah. The only trick we need is that one where our guys are ready to roll heads at kickoff, especially after a bye week. If we can get past the AFC Championship game, that bye week before the SB will worry me again. Both previous Superbowls against the Giants, we started off like ****, and yesterday was no different.

I honestly felt more of a relief at the end of yesterday's game. A relief that we didn't lose this game, because we came out playing like crap, not even giving our best for a full 60 minutes. We have to start off better than that. We can't keep wasting the first half of a football game, to get back up to speed. I had faith our guys would wake up, but I just don't want to see that ever again. I loved how Dallas and the Lions started last week. I expect us to be in form next week. And BB has to figure out how to keep our guys ready like that over a bye week.

Ivan · Jan 11, 2015

Uncle Rico said:
Doug Kyed ‏@DougKyedNESN 37s37 seconds ago
Harbaugh was asked if he's every seen a 4-OL alignment: "No. Nobody’s ever seen that before."

That does it, I'm getting Belichick SHARKS WITH FRICKING LASER BEAMS, for his birthday.

Ring 6 · Jan 11, 2015

unoriginal said:
Vereen would be traveling back upfield to catch that lateral, and if it were batted or dropped it would be a fumble. Most bubble screens have the receiver moving towards the LOS to (a) increase the chance for YAC and (b) reduce the possibility of a turnover.

Even without close coverage it would be very difficult for Vereen to turn that into a positive play, because he'd start four yards behind the line with his momentum the wrong way and unable to see downfield. The defense could probably ignore him and just pursue and contain if the ball does go to him.

No it would be just like the double pass to Edelman who would have run for at least 10 on the play.
The throw to vereen would have been if they left him uncovered so you have him and 2 blockers vs 2 defenders in space.

RayClay · Jan 11, 2015

unoriginal said:
Because that's what they did. You can't line up and then have an outside receiver whisper to a linesman "hey, #34 is ineligible" just before the ball's snapped. The refs will flag that as illegal procedure every time. Ineligible/eligible has to be declared at the latest as the players are going to line up, which is when Vereen declared.

In the case of a substitution, the player must declare before he can even join the huddle. I don't have the game on tape, but I assume Vereen was in the game on the previous play, allowing him to legally hold off on declaring until the play was "in," which is the rationale for allowing late reporting for field players vs. the declaration required for subs, who must declare before they can join the huddle.

I believe the Pats carefully managed the reporting requirements so they could gain an advantage through deception, rather than exploiting a matchup advantage. (I.e. the Ravens moving their DE out over Vereen because he's an "OT.")

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

Amazing that a professional football coach would accuse another coach of trying to deceive him. Haha.

Ring 6 · Jan 11, 2015

unoriginal said:
What I'm saying is that you could just zone it and attack it with the alley and flat defenders. It would be a very slow-developing "quick" play.

But it's not an offensive scheme it's a gimmick.
You wouldn't throw to vereen if he is defended you would accept that you eliminated a defender and run your play which they did twice.
Think about it. If you could take a lineman/ineligible receiver and a defender and have them stand still and do nothing you create an advantage. Whether it's a rusher or a cover guy is a different advantage. When you do it with essentially 6 wides and tom Brady it's easy to find the advantage.

Ring 6 · Jan 11, 2015

unoriginal said:
What I'm saying is that you could just zone it and attack it with the alley and flat defenders. It would be a very slow-developing "quick" play.

Good luck playing zone vs "6 wides"
I think the pats will take that every time.

manxman2601 · Jan 11, 2015

AndyJohnson said:
But it's not an offensive scheme it's a gimmick.
You wouldn't throw to vereen if he is defended you would accept that you eliminated a defender and run your play which they did twice.
Think about it. If you could take a lineman/ineligible receiver and a defender and have them stand still and do nothing you create an advantage. Whether it's a rusher or a cover guy is a different advantage. When you do it with essentially 6 wides and tom Brady it's easy to find the advantage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Vereen could still be used as a runner couldn't he. The option to use him on a reverse for example is still there. It just strikes me that there are so many options out of this formation. I take your point about it being a gimmick but I think it's a gimmick that could work on a game by game basis like other teams use the wildcat. Personally I like it's possibilities more than the wildcat.

RayClay · Jan 11, 2015

manxman2601 said:
Doug Kyed notes on twitter that Vereen still had to be covered on the play because he can take a lateral pass. If that's the case, it seems like a genius play that I'm surprised doesn't get used more often. So long as you have a QB that can read a defence and get the ball out quickly you're almost guaranteed to find a mismatch somewhere.

Mentioned by AJ. Great play. I don't know that he needed to be "covered" though, let's say accounted for.

manxman2601 · Jan 11, 2015

The other clever thing is using Hooman as the LT rather than Gronk. Gronk would have obviously raised alarms for the defence, Hooman is much more unassuming lining up at 'LT'.

PP2 · Jan 11, 2015

RayClay said:
http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/1/...-trick-play-that-got-john-harbaugh-mad-ravens

We just made Hooman an apparent, but not actual O Lineman. For all his shortcomings, the guy has very soft hands.

FWIW, it's not the exact same play Alabama ran. They sneaked an eligible TE as an uneligible lineman (not uncommon), but I do not recall a scenario where a WR split wide declared himself as ineligible.

The ineligible package...

Practice Squad Player

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

In the Starting Line-Up

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

In the Starting Line-Up

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

Hall of Fame Poster

Hall of Fame Poster

In the Starting Line-Up

Hall of Fame Poster

PatsFans.com Supporter

Hall of Fame Poster

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Supporter

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

Hall of Fame Poster

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club

Hall of Fame Poster

Similar threads