Addressing Weaknesses

patsfan55 said:

Andy, you're right. We needed to address the secondary and we did. However, this came at the expense of the front seven, which used to be dominant, and now is extremely mediocre. I think one thing that bothers most people and really hasn't been discussed is that we are paying more attention to the defensive backfield because of the rule changes, or whatever you want to call them, and that we are turning into a "soft" team, base more on athleticism and speed than pure brutality the way we used to be.

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I dont know how improving the secondary makes us soft.
One of the highlights in the writeups on McCourty is hitting and defending the run, Meriwhether and Chung are physical hard hitters, Butler is no slouch nor is Bodden. I think we have the most physical secondary as well.
I don't know how it comes at the expense of anything, we are talking about filling the needs we had.
Brutality will not help us cover receivers. Its been 5 years (really 6 because of all the secondary injuries, but we overcame that) that we have not covered well.
I dont know about you, but I'm getting pretty tired of going toe to toe and beating teams face up in all the biggest games only to have the 'finesse players' take the game away from us at the end because we cant cover them.

I have been vocal that I don't want this off-season focussed on WRs because I do not want us to be a WR driven team again. Its a path to coming up short in big games too. Maybe thats the 'soft' you are talking about, but I don't see how we have gotten soft on defense.

muzz said:

I didn't see nothing about shutdown, I saw "plays good when ball in front of him, get's burnt over the top, is decent in zone coverage".

Wow lets keep rolling the dice on mediocre guys like Wheatley, Wilhiite and McCourty..at the expense of a REAL player that can FORCE the QB into making mistakes with a decent secondary......
Seems to me that good QBS can pick apart anyone as long as they have time to throw......some pretty important games show that quite a bit......

Doesn't matter what I think, but that doesn't make me any less pizzed off when I continually see the same problems ignored.

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Can you show me where it says he gets burnt over the top, and is decent in zone coverage? I havent seen that, but I have read the exact words SHUTDOWN CORNER in evaluations pasted into the threads on this board.

So let me get this straight.
Your opinion is that BB has decided to 'roll the dice' take a chance on mediocre corners (I guess hoping he gets lucky?) while deciding to pass on a REAL player who is a can't miss guy but he just doesnt feel like picking him?
Is that your argument?

I'm amazed at how many people continually overlook that fact that this team is in the middle of a massive rebuild and you simply cannot stock your side full of probowlers whilst doing it.

We accept posts from those with severe cognitive deficiecies.

RichSeymour said:

Good god you're a f*cking imbecile ******. You don't know jack about football, all you do is parrot the "BB KNOWS BETTER THAN US!!!1!"

Can't even spell the name of the player we just drafted LOL

I will now take my ban :rocker:

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mgteich said:

We accept posts from those with severe cognitive deficiecies.

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And often laugh at them in private

The first thing any of us heard (who were watching NFLN) was Mayock saying he was the best special teamer in the draft. This is because he BLOCKED SEVEN KICKS, not because all he can do is return and gun. That was the first impression we got and many have yet to see past the first impression made. I was a little miffed after passing on Dez too but, I can understand bolstering the secondary day one and focusing on WR/OLB/DL on day two where chances of finding a capable reciever, backer and lineman are much higher then finding a top corner.

You can choose to believe that Belichick made a HUGE error because he chose the #24 best player with pick 27 instead of the #20 player. Perhaps Wilson is a bit better, perhaps McCourty is a bit better. In any case, Belichick had the choice between them at 22, picked up a 3rd and chose the #24 best player.

Of course, this isn't the issue. You simply don't understand that the secondary has been a a major issue since 2005. Belichick has NOW brought together a reasonable group of four safeties and three corners. In addition, he has Wilhite, Springs and Wheatley who may or may not be part of the future. In any case, we are certainly better with the three of them competing for two roster spots and for reps.

RichSeymour said:

Good god you're a f*cking imbecile ******. You don't know jack about football, all you do is parrot the "BB KNOWS BETTER THAN US!!!1!"

Can't even spell the name of the player we just drafted LOL

I will now take my ban :rocker:

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AndyJohnson said:

I have said for a very long time that the fatal flaw in the Patriots over the last 5 years has been the inability to cover when the other team is put in obvious passing situations.
It cost us the AFCC in 2006, the SB in 2007. It was not much better in 2008, but was disguised by the lack of Brady. Last year, we uncharacteristically blew more late leads in a season that we have in a decade. (Although the coverage issues appeared to be less severe)

So, what have we done about it?
Meriwhether
Chung
McCourty
Butler
Wheatley
all drafted in the first 2 rounds in the past 3 years.
Plus we added Bodden, and McGowan

We have overturned the entire secondary in the last 3 years primarily with young players with much, much more athleticism that anyone who was here before.

What it turns into is to be determined but the spped, quickness, athleticism and coverage abilty of our secondary is BY far the best it has been in many years.
If they realize their potential and mesh, we will have the best secondary play we have had here since 2003.
Sorry to interupt, lets go back to talking about Bill Belichick being an idiot.

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BB is no idiot, but you would have been singing the same tune if they had taken a ham sandwich in round one.

mgteich said:

We accept posts from those with severe cognitive deficiecies.

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Indeed, even those graced with the inability to spell.

-Jamman

The Dynasty said:

It is just mindboggling to even try and understand where BB and staff is coming from with this pick. With so many needs that the team has going into next season, they use their 1st round pick on one of the few areas, the secondary that you could actually say was a strength.

I can understand the first trade at 22, moving down 3 picks, I didnt mind that. But why make the 2nd trade? I really want to know what BB didnt like in Dez Bryant. You could have made certain the WR position was solitified for the start of the season without Welker and even when Welker returned you have WRs that include Moss, Welker, Bryant, Holt, Edleman and even Tate. Doesnt get much better than that. With all the talk of Moss leaving after next season, Bryant is his replacement. BB must have really seen something he didnt like.

I will be very disappointed if we dont get Kindle. If we see that he will go before we pick then we need to move up and get one of them. We definitely have the picks to move up. I would hope to get Kindle with our first 2nd round pick. With the 2nd I would look at Golden Tate and our 3rd 2nd I would look at the TE position and hopefully Pitta or Gronkowski will still be available.

In BB's biggest draft as a Patriot, so far it has been a disappointment. Teams are drafting impact players that can make a difference right away and we use our first round pick on a guy that will excell on special teams. Hopefully tomorrow is a lot better than today

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Why make the 2nd trade? Clearly to fill the big gap in draft picks between their last 2nd Round Pick and their 4th Round Pick. They now have a 3rd Round pick.

If McCourty, and the player they pick in Round 3 turn into All Pros, and Bryant turns into one of the many bust WRs that we all know about over the years, then it's a good move. If Bryant is the next stud WR, and our two players suck, then the move sucks.

We won't know for a while.

Here's what just happened. They had Bryant in for the better part of the day, and didn't want to take him. Being that he went at 24, many other teams felt the same way.

At the same time, they loved what they saw in McCourty. It's safe to say that most boards probably had Haden/McCourty, Haden, K. Jackson, or some mix of them and Kyle Wilson as their top CBs. The Pats staff had McCourty graded very highly.

They ended up getting a a 3rd Round draft pick, plus a better position in Round 4, and still got the CB the coveted. I'm not saying I'd have had the guts or desire to do that, but only time will tell if it pays off.

P.S. - Disclaimer, I wanted Bryant too. But, the folks paying the $$ were faced with this: This is of course if the rumors were true. A WR that didn't interview well (O.K., a small point). A player who was not only late for many practices in college, but even was late for at least one game (A more important point). A player who somewhat disappointed on his pro day, even to the point of failing to complete two of the drills (If true). VERSUS A CB who interviewed very well, and reportedly knows football inside and out. A player who never missed a practice, and was one of the team leaders in his final year. A player who tested out at the combine at the top of all players at his position. A player with bloodlines to the NFL (his brother plays for the Titans). A player who not only helps at the position for which he was drafted, but was THE BEST special teams player in the draft. So, they take the latter player, and get extra picks to do so. Is that a horrible move that many are saying it is?

muzz said:

What "argument" was that?

I don't remember mentioning the Jets, AAMOF I am 100% certain that I wasn't referring to the Jets, but you already knew that but decided to come up with something witty instead of answering the statement I made.

WTG, typical

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You argued that you need a great pass rush and the secondary isn't as important. I showed you a team that had a bad pass rush that one elite CB allowed them to blitz all the time to make up for that weakness. I think it was very relevant to your post.

pork3 said:

Not really, seeing as the OP cited an example of a team who disrupted the opponents offense with ferocious pressure eventhough it had, what was deemed at the time, a relatively average secondary.

-Jammaan

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Personally, I believe a great front seven makes up for a mediocre secondary. But the Jets are an example where an elite CB can hide the weaknesses in a flawed front seven because a guy like Revis allows the Jets to blitz because he can be left on an island.

patsfan55 said:

Andy, you're right. We needed to address the secondary and we did. However, this came at the expense of the front seven, which used to be dominant, and now is extremely mediocre. I think one thing that bothers most people and really hasn't been discussed is that we are paying more attention to the defensive backfield because of the rule changes, or whatever you want to call them, and that we are turning into a "soft" team, base more on athleticism and speed than pure brutality the way we used to be.

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Did it really? The fact of the matter that the only front seven players that were drafted so far after where the Pats originally drafted at 22 are Dan Williams, Jarod Odrick, and Jerry Hughes. Now were either of these guys even on the Pats' draft board? We know that Williams is unlikely after the Pats paid Wilfork and even the Dolphins traded down to get away from him. Odrick and Hughes were possibly on the Pats' board, but they might not.

In round two as of right now, all the same front seven players minus the three I mentioned are still available. The Pats have a lot of ammo to move up to get a Sergio Kindle tonight if they want.

Rob0729 said:

Did it really? The fact of the matter that the only front seven players that were drafted so far after where the Pats originally drafted at 22 are Dan Williams, Jarod Odrick, and Jerry Hughes. Now were either of these guys even on the Pats' draft board? We know that Williams is unlikely after the Pats paid Wilfork and even the Dolphins traded down to get away from him. Odrick and Hughes were possibly on the Pats' board, but they might not.

In round two as of right now, all the same front seven players minus the three I mentioned are still available. The Pats have a lot of ammo to move up to get a Sergio Kindle tonight if they want.

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You're absolutely right, I was upset at first at the pick, but I've come down from the ledge now, and as long as we take a de and olb within the next four picks I'll be fine. There are tons of 3-4 des available and a few olbs that I like (PLEASE BB PLEASE TAKE CARLOS DUNLAP). As for corners, not too much. This is why I didn't like just the 1st round on the first day, we're seeing an unfinished draft right now and it's making me feel very anxious.

SoonerPatriot said:

BB is no idiot, but you would have been singing the same tune if they had taken a ham sandwich in round one.

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Thats an ignorant comment. Read my post, I supported my position in great depth.
By the way, since BB has had more success than anyone in the NFL, how is it criticism of my opinion that I consistently agree with him? Havent you just proven I am right more than you? Or are you saying the Pats would have done better if he called you before making his decisions?

There is absolutely no doubt that I try to look at decisions through BBs eyes, and try to understand why he made them. Given that he is right more than any of his peers, its not hard to follow the thought process in hindsight, and hard to be real critical, given the results.
Your approach seems to be that you look at his decisions and criticize any that aren't the ones you would make from your recliner.
I'll stick with my apporach, and you can go ahead and rip me any time I support a decision without supporting the reasons why I do, and just blindly agree or defend. The next time I do that will be the first.

While its true a QB like Manning can find the weak link in a secondary every time I gotta point out the obvious....The last time we WON as SUPER BOWL we had Troy Brown playing CB! Every time we won a SB we had jag CBs that we picked up mid season such as Otis Smith. Now the "lowest" drafted DB would be a 4th rd pick! On the roster 3 #1s, 3 #2s,2 #4s and 2 FAs(Bodden and McGowen), thats an awful lot of resources to fill 4 starting spots. The OP suggested we addressed a weakness, I suggest we simply replaced a over paid/under producing FA in Shawn Springs. The question is do you think it more important to address our 5th(!!!) best CB or say a #2 TE or #3 OLB? Or is BB simply saying that he can find #2 TEs and #3 OLBs lower?? In summation, at one point in team history we had 4 #1 draft picks in our secondary and at one point we had 3 #1 picks on the DL.....which team made it to the Super Bowl?

Bostonian1962 said:

Why make the 2nd trade? Clearly to fill the big gap in draft picks between their last 2nd Round Pick and their 4th Round Pick. They now have a 3rd Round pick.

If McCourty, and the player they pick in Round 3 turn into All Pros, and Bryant turns into one of the many bust WRs that we all know about over the years, then it's a good move. If Bryant is the next stud WR, and our two players suck, then the move sucks.

We won't know for a while.

Here's what just happened. They had Bryant in for the better part of the day, and didn't want to take him. Being that he went at 24, many other teams felt the same way.

At the same time, they loved what they saw in McCourty. It's safe to say that most boards probably had Haden/McCourty, Haden, K. Jackson, or some mix of them and Kyle Wilson as their top CBs. The Pats staff had McCourty graded very highly.

They ended up getting a a 3rd Round draft pick, plus a better position in Round 4, and still got the CB the coveted. I'm not saying I'd have had the guts or desire to do that, but only time will tell if it pays off.

P.S. - Disclaimer, I wanted Bryant too. But, the folks paying the $$ were faced with this: This is of course if the rumors were true. A WR that didn't interview well (O.K., a small point). A player who was not only late for many practices in college, but even was late for at least one game (A more important point). A player who somewhat disappointed on his pro day, even to the point of failing to complete two of the drills (If true). VERSUS A CB who interviewed very well, and reportedly knows football inside and out. A player who never missed a practice, and was one of the team leaders in his final year. A player who tested out at the combine at the top of all players at his position. A player with bloodlines to the NFL (his brother plays for the Titans). A player who not only helps at the position for which he was drafted, but was THE BEST special teams player in the draft. So, they take the latter player, and get extra picks to do so. Is that a horrible move that many are saying it is?

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But Bryant doesnt have to fail for this to be a sound pick. McCourty and the 3rd just have to produce more for the Patriots than Bryant would.
I find it so funny that some posters are up in arms about not imporving the 3rd WR spot and instead improving the 3rd corner spot. Aren't they essenially the same thing? Wasn't our D worse than our O last year, especially in the passing game?
I guess its just hard to overcome the fact that WRs have stats next to their names so some fans think that makes them more important.

jeffbiologist said:

While its true a QB like Manning can find the weak link in a secondary every time I gotta point out the obvious....The last time we WON as SUPER BOWL we had Troy Brown playing CB! Every time we won a SB we had jag CBs that we picked up mid season such as Otis Smith. Now the "lowest" drafted DB would be a 4th rd pick! On the roster 3 #1s, 3 #2s,2 #4s and 2 FAs(Bodden and McGowen), thats an awful lot of resources to fill 4 starting spots. The OP suggested we addressed a weakness, I suggest we simply replaced a over paid/under producing FA in Shawn Springs. The question is do you think it more important to address our 5th(!!!) best CB or say a #2 TE or #3 OLB? Or is BB simply saying that he can find #2 TEs and #3 OLBs lower?? In summation, at one point in team history we had 4 #1 draft picks in our secondary and at one point we had 3 #1 picks on the DL.....which team made it to the Super Bowl?

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We won the last SB in spite of the secondary. Troy Brown played about 5 snaps a game in the slot mostly.
I dont think we addressed our 5th best corner, I think we drafted a guy who is one of the top 3 that will be on the field in all sub packages. Yes that is more imprtant than #2 TE ir #3 OLB.(although I think we still need a #2 OLB)
I don't think your logic works though because we also won a SB with Troy Brown, David Patten and Fred Coleman as our top 3 WRs, and with Rod Rutledge at TE. With jags on the DL, and with studs on the DL. With medicore OTs, with Antowain Smith at RB.
A team is the sum of the parts, you simply cant say, we won when we were bad at one position so lets get bad at it again.
By the way, in 2001 and 2003 our secondary was the best part of the team.

mgteich - apologies for my insults yesterday, you do a fine job moderating the board

AndyJohnson said:

Thats an ignorant comment. Read my post, I supported my position in great depth.
By the way, since BB has had more success than anyone in the NFL, how is it criticism of my opinion that I consistently agree with him? Havent you just proven I am right more than you? Or are you saying the Pats would have done better if he called you before making his decisions?

There is absolutely no doubt that I try to look at decisions through BBs eyes, and try to understand why he made them. Given that he is right more than any of his peers, its not hard to follow the thought process in hindsight, and hard to be real critical, given the results.
Your approach seems to be that you look at his decisions and criticize any that aren't the ones you would make from your recliner.
I'll stick with my apporach, and you can go ahead and rip me any time I support a decision without supporting the reasons why I do, and just blindly agree or defend. The next time I do that will be the first.

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Andy, you're an insufferable homer. Don't be ashamed of it, don't try to qualify it or spend 10 minutes of your life writing out a long winded response. Just own it.

I stand by what I said. It wouldn't have mattered who they selected last night. You would have praised (wildly) the pick, even if it was Teblow or Michael Oher's neck cheese.

I actually think the pick is a good one. Not going to quibble there.