PFT: High-level executive: "IR issue way bigger than taping"

[pao]

Excellent post!

The one comment that I would like to add to this mess of a thread: There are many here that have made the mistake of confusing Laws/Rules with Morals/Ethics. Violating the IR Rule is certainly a violation but that doesn't mean that it is a moral or ethical violation. Having IR'd players practice is certainly a rules violation. If Belichick is making players practice when they are clearly injured and thus jeapordizing their careers then it is also an ethical issue.

If you break the rule by simply allowing a player on IR whose injury has healed to practice, it is an ethical violation. If he hasn't healed and you force him to practice it is an ethical AND moral violation, imo.

However, if he is letting these young players get valuable practice time in after they have fully recovered then it is a benefit to them and I hardly see it as an ethical issue.

I see it as an ethical issue because it is against the rule. Someone on this thread had a good idea for a better way to handle IR cases but the rule as it stands does not allow what you propose.

Lets take a for instance. Dieon Branch was IR'd early in his first year. There was absolutely no chance of him being cut given his high draft status. Would it me immoral to have him take some reps after his full recovery to help him transition for the following year? Of course not.

Within the confines of your example what you post makes sense. However, there is room for abuse under your system. Let's take Wes Welker as an example. The Chargers had him, and liked him, wanted to keep him as a matter of fact. Let's say they could IR him and allow him to practice with the team and not count against their roster. Obviously they would have done that if it was not against the rules. But would that have been the best thing for Welker? No, imo. He ended up going to Miami and had a great year. If the Chargers had kept him on reserve he would not have had that opportunity.

As for the media coverage, there is no coincedence that ESPN is the only major new source picking this up. It is a speeding ticket at the worst.

I agree with this completely.What's ridiculous is this is so easily enforceable. Just video every practice (it's done anyway) and do spot checks. I'm sure that would keep teams honest.

sdfan

PS OR change the rule. I too dislike the rule as it now reads.

 

[otis p. driftwood]

Nonsense. He has no need to produce any such evidence.

Yes, actually he does. If he simply wants to come here and comment on this particular issue, then fine, it's not an issue. But when he starts talking about ethics and morals and how he battles unethical immoral behavior whenever and wherever he finds it, then yes, he really needs to show that he does, and he's not just using that as a false podium.

 

[pao]

If part of your riff is that you comment on and condemn cheating and rule breaking from any and sundry, then yes, we have the right to demand you show proof of your so called even handedness.

You either agree with what I say or don't. It's that simple. I'll make it simpler...
1) I post this statement here..."The Patriots are a very good team".
2) I post on the Chargers board or on many boards... "The Patriots suck".

Post #1 is still correct, right?

sdfan

 

[otis p. driftwood]

You either agree with what I say or don't. It's that simple. I'll make it simpler...
1) I post this statement here..."The Patriots are a very good team".
2) I post on the Chargers board or on many boards... "The Patriots suck".

Post #1 is still correct, right?

sdfan

So you've just admitted you're a hypocrite as well as a liar with at least two faces?

 

[Jackson 2]

You either agree with what I say or don't. It's that simple. I'll make it simpler...
1) I post this statement here..."The Patriots are a very good team".
2) I post on the Chargers board or on many boards... "The Patriots suck".

Post #1 is still correct, right?

sdfan

You must have one hell of a life if you can devote this much time and energy on Memorial Day week-end to such a worthless topic on another team's board.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes, actually he does. If he simply wants to come here and comment on this particular issue, then fine, it's not an issue. But when he starts talking about ethics and morals and how he battles unethical immoral behavior whenever and wherever he finds it, then yes, he really needs to show that he does, and he's not just using that as a false podium.

He is under no obligation to go hunting down posts just to satisfy a bunch of people who are arguing gibberish. The vast majority of points he's made would be readily agreed with by almost everyone here if he weren't talking about it when it runs against the Patriots.

 

[pao]

Yes, actually he does. If he simply wants to come here and comment on this particular issue, then fine, it's not an issue. But when he starts talking about ethics and morals and how he battles unethical immoral behavior whenever and wherever he finds it, then yes, he really needs to show that he does, and he's not just using that as a false podium.

a.paul,
I don't recall claiming to battle unethical/immoral behavior whenever and wherever I find it. I did respond another's post regarding ethical/immoral hues, an excellent post I might add. Whatever. I would take my posts at face value and if you disagree explain why. If you don't want to, I understand, but to request that I post proof that I am not using a "false podium" is really beyond the requirements of participation and I don't believe you really expected me to comply with your request.

sdfan

 

[pao]

So you've just admitted you're a hypocrite as well as a liar with at least two faces?

LOL. I have admitted nothing of the sort.

sdfan

 

[pao]

You must have one hell of a life if you can devote this much time and energy on Memorial Day week-end to such a worthless topic on another team's board.

Actually this has been fun. Very illuminating about a Patriot fan POV. It isn't often I spend this much time on any board. You are right though, it IS Memorial Day weekend, and this ISN'T really the best way to spend it. Never the less I'll be back later. If not before this weekend, Have a great one!

sdfan

 

[OhExaulted1]

Who cares? They broke the rule, were punished for it, it's over. You said it was Tucker, it wasn't.

sdfan

So we've got an unsubstantiated allegation by a former terminated employee with no proof or witnesses to offer as evidence. They weren't proven to have broken that rule and were NOT punished for it. I think you're getting confused.

You said they were punished. They weren't.

 

[BSR]

Excellent post!

If you break the rule by simply allowing a player on IR whose injury has healed to practice, it is an ethical violation. I see it as an ethical issue because it is against the rule. Someone on this thread had a good idea for a better way to handle IR cases but the rule as it stands does not allow what you propose.

I think I agree that there is definitely an "ethical" violation but that isn't necessarily meaningful in a league that is largely unethical. And by that I don't mean "but everybody does it!", just that the lines between ethical and unethical in an industry where everyone tries to get an edge are blurred. Ethics in sports aren't even nearly as defined as they are as in say buisness where even there things can sometimes can be grey. A player is taught to hold when he can get away with it but that is called "gamesmanship" and yet technically is still unethical. And again, don't confuse rules with ethics. Just because something doesn't violate a rule doesn't mean it isn't unethical. The colts habitually try to catch teams in substitutions. Most people don't give it a second thought but many would consider it unethical since it is trying to gain an unfair advantage outside the spirit of the rules. There are many other examples of unethical behaviors that most simply consider "gamesmanship". So when someone claims that there is unethical behavior occurring in the NFL my natural response is "meh". If anyone thinks they are watching an "ethical" sport then they clearly haven't been paying attention. Focusing on the Belichick as unethical is supremely and grossly myopic.

Within the confines of your example what you post makes sense. However, there is room for abuse under your system. Let's take Wes Welker as an example. The Chargers had him, and liked him, wanted to keep him as a matter of fact. Let's say they could IR him and allow him to practice with the team and not count against their roster. Obviously they would have done that if it was not against the rules. But would that have been the best thing for Welker? No, imo. He ended up going to Miami and had a great year. If the Chargers had kept him on reserve he would not have had that opportunity.

Now we have two examples. One where it is to the benefit of the player, another where it is to his detriment. The conclusion? It depends.

I agree with this completely.What's ridiculous is this is so easily enforceable. Just video every practice (it's done anyway) and do spot checks. I'm sure that would keep teams honest.

Actually they already do some of this I believe. I thought I read it somewhere. They instituted these spot checks a few years ago because of reported violations during the years.

 

[flasox27]

You have to give the Bolts fans credit. They sure boast a lot for having accomplished nothing in 45 years. Not every team has characters from the Wizard of OZ. They have the scarecrow as the coach ( no brains), the tinman as running back (no heart), the cowardly lion as linebacker( courage in a syringe), and Dorothy as quarterback (just lost). :rocker:

 

[Metaphors]

Come on, lets not get into this. They broke the rule, they don't even argue it. They were punished, they accepted it, it's done.

They are accused of breaking the rule.
They haven't commented on it.
They haven't been punished for breaking that rule.
They certainly haven't accepted it.
It is still being investigated.

You made 5 points and got every single one wrong. Congrats.

As to your original point that the Pats have practiced players on IR "continuously", please see my earlier post about the statements made in this case and why doing this "continuously" would be nearly impossible to pull off without being caught.

As for Tucker's "revelations", lets look at the IR list for 2005:
Ryan Claridge: Everyone complained how he was never seen around Foxborough during his rehab
Randall Gay: placed on IR on 11/15 so doubtful he was back practicing
Gus Scott: placed on IR on 10/18 with knee injury, possible he could have returned late in the year
Mike Wright: placed on IR on 1/6/06, so doubtful he was back practicing
Michael McGrew: placed on IR 9/15 but not worth a roster spot anyway

So who did Tucker witness practicing while on IR? Ignoring McGrew (who had already been waived once), the only real possibility was Gus Scott. Given his injury history with his knee, I don't think he would be a real practice difference maker late in the year. While Tucker may technically be telling the truth and Scott worked out a little during a practice late in 2005, his article leaves a much different impression that your "continously" comment takes to a whole new level.

 

[otis p. driftwood]

LOL. I have admitted nothing of the sort.

sdfan

You just said you come here and post that the Pats are a great team, but on your own SD board or another team's board you'd post that the Pats suck.

That's being a two faced hypocrite.

 

[OhExaulted1]

Why? Does that change whether my posts are correct or not? No. It doesn't matter what else I have been commenting on, I was participating in this thread. Nothing else matters.


sdfan

It shows you're a troll with an agenda. You're "participation" consists of unsubstantiated antagonizing statements and falsehood rumors insinuated as fact.

I asked you what other teams transgressions besides the Patriots you were commenting on. You have no answer because that is the answer.

That makes you a troll.

 

[pao]

So we've got an unsubstantiated allegation by a former terminated employee with no proof or witnesses to offer as evidence.

Funny, I guess you aren't aware of Tucker's article. He, if not substantiates, is at least is another person claiming the Patriots did break the IR rule by allowing a player on IR to practice.

They weren't proven to have broken that rule and were NOT punished for it. I think you're getting confused.

You said they were punished. They weren't.

Didn't Goodell say that the punishment for this infraction was included in the Spygate punishment. That's the way I understand it.

sdfan

 

[pao]

I think I agree that there is definitely an "ethical" violation but that isn't necessarily meaningful in a league that is largely unethical. And by that I don't mean "but everybody does it!", just that the lines between ethical and unethical in an industry where everyone tries to get an edge are blurred. Ethics in sports aren't even nearly as defined as they are as in say buisness where even there things can sometimes can be grey. A player is taught to hold when he can get away with it but that is called "gamesmanship" and yet technically is still unethical. And again, don't confuse rules with ethics. Just because something doesn't violate a rule doesn't mean it isn't unethical. The colts habitually try to catch teams in substitutions. Most people don't give it a second thought but many would consider it unethical since it is trying to gain an unfair advantage outside the spirit of the rules. There are many other examples of unethical behaviors that most simply consider "gamesmanship". So when someone claims that there is unethical behavior occurring in the NFL my natural response is "meh". If anyone thinks they are watching an "ethical" sport then they clearly haven't been paying attention. Focusing on the Belichick as unethical is supremely and grossly myopic.



Now we have two examples. One where it is to the benefit of the player, another where it is to his detriment. The conclusion? It depends.



Actually they already do some of this I believe. I thought I read it somewhere. They instituted these spot checks a few years ago because of reported violations during the years.

Another excellent post. You have brought clarity to the matter, imo. See the bolded, I hate when the Colts do that. It is just so chickencrap.

sdfan

 

[pao]

You have to give the Bolts fans credit. They sure boast a lot for having accomplished nothing in 45 years. Not every team has characters from the Wizard of OZ. They have the scarecrow as the coach ( no brains), the tinman as running back (no heart), the cowardly lion as linebacker( courage in a syringe), and Dorothy as quarterback (just lost). :rocker:

Funny, where have I once boasted?

sdfan

 

[pao]

You just said you come here and post that the Pats are a great team, but on your own SD board or another team's board you'd post that the Pats suck.

That's being a two faced hypocrite.

I was giving you an example of how I could be hypocritical and still be right. Come on now.

sdfan

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I find it ironic that anybody in the current climate is suggesting that the solution to some supposed IR infraction is "Just videotape every practice." Even if it IS being done already...

Cue the "Pats stole other peoples practice tapes" story in 3...2...1....