Belichick and Pioli treading water since 2004

[Keegs]

 

[Rob0729]

I have to agree with NSA here. If we aren't going to win the Super Bowl, then why have 18 wins. If Belichick and Pioli were doing their job, they would have gone 1-15 like the Dolphins. At least the Dolphins know if you aren't going to win the Super Bowl, lose with style. Look they had a Super Bowl type victory when they saved themselves from going winless by beating the Ravens. Can any of us say that we had a nearly emotional victory this year as the Dolphins did that day? I think not.

 

[festy1986]

The only thing people should care about is SB wins.

And he is right that since 04 they are 0 for 3.

Not that they havent had their chances though.

 

[satz]

We can trade BB contract for a first round and then fire scott...then patriots will be on top again.

 

[C'Bad Bolt]

Just because the Patriots did not win the Super Bowl does not make the GM and Head Coach failures. Their track record of consistent success is second to none in the history of modern football, if not all history.

This post reminds me of the Fire Marty Shottenheimer posts on the Charger board. He goes 14-2 and loses to N.E. when nine of his "Pro Bowl" players decide to go brain dead at the same time. I argued that it was a few plays that were there to be made that were not made... but, oh well, it worked out okay I guess. Chargers got farther along with Norv.

My guess is that the Patriots are not panicking with the loss of Stallworth, Samuel and potentially Randy Moss. This is simply what happens to good teams when their great players contracts come due. You can't pay them all and stay under the cap, so you make hard decisions.

The Charges will have similar problems in two years with Rivers and Merriman and others, and then in three years with Cromartie and Gates. Cromartie will break the bank. His contract will make Asante's look like peanuts. My guess at this time is that he will be a Dallas Cowboy. Jerry Jones likes to overpay. lol.

 

[Joker]

Best post by a SD fan I've ever read on this board.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

The facts are, Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli are not perfect. 2005 might have been their worst offseason. Their free agent pickups were terrible and were lucky to make it to Denver in the playoffs that year. 2006 wasn't very good as well but I liked their draft. However, the Pats coaching staff's problem is their stubburness of not drafting LB's and DB's early or mid draft. Don't get me wrong, I will never come close to knowing football that they do, but at least most people can agree that the Pats need to start drafting LB's and DB's. I don't care what round they draft them in, just draft them. Paying guys minimum wage and having them turn out like Mike Vrabel don't come around too often, it at all. They tried it with Biesel and Brown and they failed miserably. In fact, plenty of young LB's have been able to step right in and play well. Although the Pats didn't have the chance to draft guys like Ware, Merriman and Willis, just show that young LB's high in the draft can make an impact. Some guys to consider are Thomas Howard, Kirk Morrison and David Harris to name a few. I don't like either when people on this board say "in Bioli we trust" because they haven't won a superbowl since 2004. I know it's hard to win every year, but better moves in the front office would have taken care of that. The reason why they brought home titles in 2001, 2003 and 2004 is because they had depth at most positions. Over the past three seasons, they have relied on guys staying healthy, which didn't happen. It was the cause of the eventually downfall in Denver, the 4th quarter collapse in Indy and the worst choke job of all time in the superbowl. The facts are, the Pats had zero depth at LB where they where the weakness of the team already. Colvin went down and that didn't help the effectiveness of the aging LB's. That meant that Seau had to play more and which led to them wearing down in my opinion. Bruschi gave it everything he got but he hasn't made much of an impact since the superbowl years. In addition, very seldom did I hear Bruschi's name called this season. He might have had a lot of tackles, but he didn't change games like he used to. And that is why the Pats are dismantling the defense. That is why Colvin was cut. That is why Wilson and Gay were told to take a hike. It's time to start over and hopefully get younger. This team needs new blood. Whether their free agents are draftee's, this defense needs a change. I think the Pats organization are starting to realize that now.

 

[A.C Vegas]

I can not believe you are all still give NSTroll his attention. He never manned up when Mareony suceeded and just tune him out

 

[BrianPat]

I think BB and Pioli are the best in the business, but I'm getting a little sick and tired of hearing the "In Bill and Pioli I trust" mumbo jumbo. Fact is, we haven't hoisted a Lombardi since 2004 and Tom Brady has been in his prime the last 3 years. If we lose out on Moss, than once again we will be without a true #1 receiver in one of the prime years of Tom Brady's career. Maybe they have a plan B in the works with Cincinnati for Chad Johnson and that's why they are playing risky business with letting Moss test the waters. But if they don't, I'm sorry, that is simply not good business. It's one thing when you are winning Lombardi's, but we haven't done that in 3 years and it's looking like we will have a tough time doing that again next year. Sooner or later it is time to start openly questioning Bill and Pioli because their job is to win championships and not division titles. Like Vince Lombardi once said, 2nd place only means you are the 1st loser. I know the homers on this board will tell me to shut up and that's fine if it makes them feel better, but at least I'm a realist and I can see that this team has some serious question marks(secondary, linebackers, team speed, possibly WR if we lose Moss) and it's going to be awfully hard to fill these holes with rookies from a draft.

OK, I've put as much thought into my response as you've seemed to have put in your post.

Your a moron, always have been !

 

[Pats726]

The only thing people should care about is SB wins.

Speak for yourself...you don't sound like much of a fan of football...

 

[Wretch]

I think BB and Pioli are the best in the business, but I'm getting a little sick and tired of hearing the "In Bill and Pioli I trust" mumbo jumbo. Fact is, we haven't hoisted a Lombardi since 2004 and Tom Brady has been in his prime the last 3 years. If we lose out on Moss, than once again we will be without a true #1 receiver in one of the prime years of Tom Brady's career. Maybe they have a plan B in the works with Cincinnati for Chad Johnson and that's why they are playing risky business with letting Moss test the waters. But if they don't, I'm sorry, that is simply not good business. It's one thing when you are winning Lombardi's, but we haven't done that in 3 years and it's looking like we will have a tough time doing that again next year. Sooner or later it is time to start openly questioning Bill and Pioli because their job is to win championships and not division titles. Like Vince Lombardi once said, 2nd place only means you are the 1st loser. I know the homers on this board will tell me to shut up and that's fine if it makes them feel better, but at least I'm a realist and I can see that this team has some serious question marks(secondary, linebackers, team speed, possibly WR if we lose Moss) and it's going to be awfully hard to fill these holes with rookies from a draft.

Welcome back to Patsfans Mr. Felger.

 

[Hawg 73]

The facts are, Bill Belichick and Scott Pioli are not perfect. 2005 might have been their worst offseason. Their free agent pickups were terrible and were lucky to make it to Denver in the playoffs that year. 2006 wasn't very good as well but I liked their draft. However, the Pats coaching staff's problem is their stubburness of not drafting LB's and DB's early or mid draft. Don't get me wrong, I will never come close to knowing football that they do, but at least most people can agree that the Pats need to start drafting LB's and DB's. I don't care what round they draft them in, just draft them. Paying guys minimum wage and having them turn out like Mike Vrabel don't come around too often, it at all. They tried it with Biesel and Brown and they failed miserably. In fact, plenty of young LB's have been able to step right in and play well. Although the Pats didn't have the chance to draft guys like Ware, Merriman and Willis, just show that young LB's high in the draft can make an impact. Some guys to consider are Thomas Howard, Kirk Morrison and David Harris to name a few. I don't like either when people on this board say "in Bioli we trust" because they haven't won a superbowl since 2004. I know it's hard to win every year, but better moves in the front office would have taken care of that. The reason why they brought home titles in 2001, 2003 and 2004 is because they had depth at most positions. Over the past three seasons, they have relied on guys staying healthy, which didn't happen. It was the cause of the eventually downfall in Denver, the 4th quarter collapse in Indy and the worst choke job of all time in the superbowl. The facts are, the Pats had zero depth at LB where they where the weakness of the team already. Colvin went down and that didn't help the effectiveness of the aging LB's. That meant that Seau had to play more and which led to them wearing down in my opinion. Bruschi gave it everything he got but he hasn't made much of an impact since the superbowl years. In addition, very seldom did I hear Bruschi's name called this season. He might have had a lot of tackles, but he didn't change games like he used to. And that is why the Pats are dismantling the defense. That is why Colvin was cut. That is why Wilson and Gay were told to take a hike. It's time to start over and hopefully get younger. This team needs new blood. Whether their free agents are draftee's, this defense needs a change. I think the Pats organization are starting to realize that now.

Well said. I completely agree. I hope BB/SP can successfully retool an aging and ineffective LB/DB corp this off-season.

 

[PatriotsReign]

I am not worried about FA signinings or the draft because I have 100% faith in BB & Pioli. I am in the zone...at peace....perfect karma

 

[DarrylStingley]

First, I agree with the initial reactions to the first post.

It's an overstatement to say that BB and SP have lost their fastball, particularly coming off a season that was one ridiculous and I daresay lucky drive away from being 19-0. If not for a lot of great plays by the giants, some horrific non-calls by the zebras and some sheer bad luck in the persons of Assante Dropuel, Richard Seymour, Merriwhjther and Rodney not making better plays at key moments, we're all celebrating BB and SP right now.

That said, the following moves and non-moves DO stick with me:

- not drafting better since 04; how many great young additions have we had?

- not drafting LBs.

- Letting Vinatieri go....sorry but what AV got from Indy wasn't crazy money and even if SG is better, at the time we did not know that and why screw around with a player that can be as important as kicker....What happened in SB 42 put a finer point on this as BB showed that he was either possessed by the Spirit of Grady Freaking Little for a moment there or he just didn't trust SG. This all could have been avoided.

- Not having a better Plan B when they decided to play hard ball with Branch. Fine, let Givens and Branch go if they want too much coin, but don't tell me that the back up plan has Bug Eyes as the number one. WTF is that? If they didn't stumble on Gaffney later in the year, the WRs would have looked pretty bad by the time the playoffs came around. In many ways, 06 was Brady's best year given who he was throwing the ball to.

- Why have such young guys been made coordinator? Mangini sucked in 05 and McDaniel took a while to jell.

- The fact that Randy Moss has not been signed yet.

- Their apparent failure to realize that it's important morale wise for the team (not the fans) to retain/sign more than Bruschi and Paxton after one of the biggest stomach punch losses in Boston sports history....this point is my weakest....and is really just a gut reaction on my part, so don't jump all over it, please.

- Frankly, spygate....I believe strongly that the NFL and the opportunists like Tony Dungy have WAY WAY WAY overreacted....at the same time, the fact that BB stuck a camera on the sideline and dared Mangini to call him on it was flat dumb. BB's interpretation of the rule -- in the face of a crystal clear memo from the NFL -- was dumb, too. A lot of what's happening now off the field could have been avoided, and it should have been.

 

[richpats]

No, I expect a world championship when we are the heavy favorite to win the title and blow it. I expect the title when we have a 21-3 lead at Indy and have Rex Grossman and the friggen Bears as the last obstacle if we close the deal. Listen, we are not cinderella. We are the New England Patriots. You know, the franchise that is either the favorite or one of the top 3 favorites to win it every year. Ya, that's who we are. It's all fine and dandy to be happy with getting to the playoffs if you are a Cleveland or Seattle fan. It's not ok when you have Tom Brady, Bill Belichick, and the roster we've had the past couple years. It's time to GET IT DONE. No more excuses this year. Tired of them already. Put up or shut up time.

Amen to that.

 

[spacecrime]

I think BB and Pioli are the best in the business, but I'm getting a little sick and tired of hearing the "In Bill and Pioli I trust" mumbo jumbo. Fact is, we haven't hoisted a Lombardi since 2004

Wow, they suck. Only made the playoffs each year, including going to two AFCCGs and a SB. So tell me what team has won more playof games than they have?

Fact is, BB and SP are the best in the business, and it is beyond my comprehension why you think you should not trust them, and think your own football knowledge based on watching NFLN and ESPN, and reading the Globe, etc make you better informed than guys who work 14 hours a day in football and have a staff of a hundred or more feeding them information.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

e·go·ma·ni·a /ˌigoʊˈmeɪniə, -ˈmeɪnyə, ˌɛgoʊ-/

–noun

psychologically abnormal egotism.

 

[gomezcat]

Wow, they suck. Only made the playoffs each year, including going to two AFCCGs and a SB. So tell me what team has won more playof games than they have?

Fact is, BB and SP are the best in the business, and it is beyond my comprehension why you think you should not trust them, and think your own football knowledge based on watching NFLN and ESPN, and reading the Globe, etc make you better informed than guys who work 14 hours a day in football and have a staff of a hundred or more feeding them information.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

e·go·ma·ni·a /ˌigoʊˈmeɪniə, -ˈmeɪnyə, ˌɛgoʊ-/

–noun

psychologically abnormal egotism.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

For those of you annoyed by trolls, I suggest the ignore function.

 

[ATippett56]

It was the cause of the eventually downfall in Denver, the 4th quarter collapse in Indy and the worst choke job of all time in the superbowl. The facts are, the Pats had zero depth at LB where they where the weakness of the team already.

I am also puzzled why Belichick has not drafted a linebacker in the first three rounds, especially in 2005. Trading a third round draft pick for an injury prone Duane Starks was not the best maneuver.

Colvin went down and that didn't help the effectiveness of the aging LB's. That meant that Seau had to play more and which led to them wearing down in my opinion. Bruschi gave it everything he got but he hasn't made much of an impact since the superbowl years. In addition, very seldom did I hear Bruschi's name called this season. He might have had a lot of tackles, but he didn't change games like he used to. And that is why the Pats are dismantling the defense. That is why Colvin was cut. That is why Wilson and Gay were told to take a hike. It's time to start over and hopefully get younger. This team needs new blood. Whether their free agents are draftee's, this defense needs a change. I think the Pats organization are starting to realize that now.

Rosevelt Colvin was cut probably due to the seriousness of his injury as well as his $7 million salary cap charge this year. Eugene Wilson was essentially replaced by last year's first round draft pick Brandon Meriweather. Randall Gay is injury prone and is not worth a significant signing bonus.

If the Patriots fail to sign Randy Moss, I fully expect the New England Patriots to trade down from the number seven draft position and hopefully pick up at least another second round draft pick.

 

[p8ryts]

I think BB and Pioli are the best in the business, but I'm getting a little sick and tired of hearing the "In Bill and Pioli I trust" mumbo jumbo. Fact is, we haven't hoisted a Lombardi since 2004 and Tom Brady has been in his prime the last 3 years. If we lose out on Moss, than once again we will be without a true #1 receiver in one of the prime years of Tom Brady's career. Maybe they have a plan B in the works with Cincinnati for Chad Johnson and that's why they are playing risky business with letting Moss test the waters. But if they don't, I'm sorry, that is simply not good business. It's one thing when you are winning Lombardi's, but we haven't done that in 3 years and it's looking like we will have a tough time doing that again next year. Sooner or later it is time to start openly questioning Bill and Pioli because their job is to win championships and not division titles. Like Vince Lombardi once said, 2nd place only means you are the 1st loser. I know the homers on this board will tell me to shut up and that's fine if it makes them feel better, but at least I'm a realist and I can see that this team has some serious question marks(secondary, linebackers, team speed, possibly WR if we lose Moss) and it's going to be awfully hard to fill these holes with rookies from a draft.

Seems that I hear this refrain from somebody every year. How many division championships have we won since BB/SP have been here? How many losing seasons have their been? How many Super Bowl appearances?

This year will be BB's greatest challenge because of the potential emotional letdown after losing the SB, doesn't mean it won't be another good one.

Please mark me down as a homer, shut up and why don't you jump on the Jets bandwagon right now since they are so dramatically improved already (sic).

 

[stinkypete]

First, I agree with the initial reactions to the first post.

That said, the following moves and non-moves DO stick with me:

- not drafting better since 04; how many great young additions have we had?

The 2005 draft was excellent. Mankins, Kaczur, Hobbs and Sanders all came out of a draft class that was considered the weakest in years. In general, the past few draft classes have been rather poor. I will, however, fault the team for the '06 draft, they could have done much better.

- not drafting LBs.

Like who? Besides Manny Lawson and David Harris, there have been no big deal LBs available to the Pats. Passing on Lawson for Maroney was perfectly legit, and trading last year's #28 instead of taking Harris netted us Randy Moss and pick #7.

- Letting Vinatieri go....sorry but what AV got from Indy wasn't crazy money and even if SG is better, at the time we did not know that and why screw around with a player that can be as important as kicker....What happened in SB 42 put a finer point on this as BB showed that he was either possessed by the Spirit of Grady Freaking Little for a moment there or he just didn't trust SG. This all could have been avoided.

Don't go blaming Super Bowl 42 on Vinateiri's defection. The whole team lost that game, Vineteiri wouldn't have saved it.

- Not having a better Plan B when they decided to play hard ball with Branch. Fine, let Givens and Branch go if they want too much coin, but don't tell me that the back up plan has Bug Eyes as the number one. WTF is that? If they didn't stumble on Gaffney later in the year, the WRs would have looked pretty bad by the time the playoffs came around. In many ways, 06 was Brady's best year given who he was throwing the ball to.

They blew that one, I will agree with you there.

- Why have such young guys been made coordinator? Mangini sucked in 05 and McDaniel took a while to jell.

The current coordinators are fine. Mangini didn't suck. He was given Monty Beisel and Duane Starks and told to build a champion D. Blame the front office for that one, not Mangini.

- The fact that Randy Moss has not been signed yet.

For $11 million annually. Hope you have a plan to replace Vince Wilfork and Logan Mankins when their contracts expire, because you can't pay your linemen if your paying your recievers that kind of money.

- Their apparent failure to realize that it's important morale wise for the team (not the fans) to retain/sign more than Bruschi and Paxton after one of the biggest stomach punch losses in Boston sports history....this point is my weakest....and is really just a gut reaction on my part, so don't jump all over it, please.

I agree with you halfway, but we as fans can't get too sucked in by the magic and ultimate disapointment of the 2007 season. That team was not/is not sustainable. If the management shelled out $10 million to Samuel and $10 million to Moss, where is the money for other players going to come from? I think the Pats need to go back to their roots, so to speak, even if it means letting some big players walk.

- Frankly, spygate....I believe strongly that the NFL and the opportunists like Tony Dungy have WAY WAY WAY overreacted....at the same time, the fact that BB stuck a camera on the sideline and dared Mangini to call him on it was flat dumb. BB's interpretation of the rule -- in the face of a crystal clear memo from the NFL -- was dumb, too. A lot of what's happening now off the field could have been avoided, and it should have been.

Stupid, stupid move by Belichick. Foolish. I hope he got MF'ed by Kraft for that one. That draft pick would look real good right now.