Three most important people in Pats franchise history

[QuiGon]

Mike Adams just announced that he thinks they are:

Bob Kraft
Bill Parcells
Drew Bledsoe.

Discuss.

Sullivan, Kraft, Brady. Without Sullivan, there's no franchise. Without Kraft, there's no franchise in New England. Without Brady, there's no championships.

To put Parcells and Bledsoe on that list is a joke.

 

[QuiGon]

James Orthwein would be on my list. He easily could have moved the struggling franchise with a joke for a stadium to his home town St. Louis before they got the Rams. Instead he brought in Tuna and eventually sold the team to a business man with local interests. The rest is history.

Well, he couldn't "easily have moved" them to St. Louis because that's what he wanted to do and tried to do only it wasn't so easy. Kraft wouldn't let him out of the parking lot lease, and that's how they stayed in New England.

 

[BradyManny]

Sullivan, Kraft, Brady. Without Sullivan, there's no franchise. Without Kraft, there's no franchise in New England. Without Brady, there's no championships.

It comes down to what you value more, the existence of the franchise, or the excellence of the franchise.

Personally, the existence of the franchise is not nearly as great an achievement as its excellence. Sports values achievement, not participation.

Therefore, it's Brady, Belichick and Kraft.

 

[QuiGon]

It comes down to what you value more, the existence of the franchise, or the excellence of the franchise.

Personally, the existence of the franchise is not nearly as great an achievement as its excellence.

Gotta say I don't see the logic in that statement...

Without Sullivan, there is no Brady, Belichick or Kraft (at least, not here in New England)... as much as I love Brady, who is #3 on my list, the franchise would still exist if he never came around.

 

[FirstAndGoal]

I don't think putting Parcells on that list is a joke at all. I think history will be kind to Tuna.

 

[BradyManny]

Without Sullivan, there is no Brady, Belichick or Kraft (at least, not here in New England)... as much as I love Brady, who is #3 on my list, the franchise would still exist if he never came around.

I see your point and am not denying Sullivan's importance. But at the same time, it would be like saying James and Deloris Jordan are the most important people in the Chicago Bulls franchise because they created Michael Jordan (sure, that's an exaggerated example, but I love exaggerated examples). Without James and Deloris, there is no Michael Jordan.

3 Super Bowl rings ago, Sullivan would have been top on the list along with Kraft/Parcells/Bledsoe.

But the franchise has been re-defined into the premier sporting franchise of this decade, a model upon which all other sporting teams in every sport aim to achieve, and the three most important people in doing that are Brady, Belichick and Kraft.

If I asked you who the three most important people in the history of America, who would you come up with? The first colonists who came here, or any of the great men who made the country great in the centuries after that? Again, greatness is more important than existence.

 

[QuiGon]

I see your point and am not denying Sullivan's importance. But at the same time, it would be like saying James and Deloris Jordan are the most important people in the Chicago Bulls franchise because they created Michael Jordan (sure, that's an exaggerated example, but I love exaggerated examples). Without James and Deloris, there is no Michael Jordan.

Ummmm... no. Saying Sullivan is the most important person in Patriots' history is nothing like that at all.

If I asked you who the three most important people in the history of America, who would you come up with?

I can't name a 3rd offhand, but I know Washington and Lincoln would be on that list.

The first colonists who came here, or any of the great men who made the country great in the centuries after that? Again, greatness is more important than existence.

With all due respect this is a horrible analogy. If you asked for the most important people in the history of America, I wouldn't say "Christopher Columbus" because he predates America by a couple centuries. But if you asked me for the 3 most important people in the settlement of North America, then he would be on that list. However, to extend your analogy...

Washington = Sullivan (founder of the nation, founder of the team)
Lincoln = Kraft (one preserved the union, the other preserved the team staying in New England).

I add Brady to my list of top-3 Patriots because I give him the most credit for the team being the dynasty it has become. The closest analogy from American history may be Roosevelt...

 

[BigMike]

its:

Mo Lewis
Tom Brady
**** Rebhein

 

[BradyManny]

Ummmm... no. Saying Sullivan is the most important person in Patriots' history is nothing like that at all.

It was by your logic. You said that without Sullivan, there is no Brady. You were - in terms of logic - valuing creation over achievement. All I did was give you a ridiculous, exaggerated example to show you why your logic is flawed.

Washington = Sullivan (founder of the nation, founder of the team)
Lincoln = Kraft (one preserved the union, the other preserve the team staying in New England).

I add Brady to my list of top-3 Patriots because I give him the most credit for the team being the dynasty it has become. The closest analogy from American history may be Roosevelt...

I think the list would undoubtedly be Washington, Lincoln and FDR.

And Washington is not at all comparable to Sullivan. We don't celebrate Washington b/c he founded the country. We celebrate Washington b/c he made the country great. If for instance, America largely sucked until Lincoln came along, then we wouldn't celebrate Washington at all. Greatness > existence. The Pats are a different franchise since 2000, you have to recognize that. They've set the bar for the rest of sports.

 

[QuiGon]

It was by your logic. You said that without Sullivan, there is no Brady. You were - in terms of logic - valuing creation over achievement.

That's a fair statement. In terms of importance, I value the guy who created the team more than I do anyone else.

All I did was give you a ridiculous, exaggerated example to show you why your logic is flawed.

I am glad you admit your example was ridiculous and exaggerated. Of course, I have no idea why you brought something you admit was a ridiculous and exaggerated example into the discussion.

And Washington is not at all comparable to Sullivan. We don't celebrate Washington b/c he founded the country. We celebrate Washington b/c he made the country great. If for instance, America largely sucked until Lincoln came along, then we wouldn't celebrate Washington at all. Greatness > existence. The Pats are a different franchise since 2000, you have to recognize that. They've set the bar for the rest of sports.

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Without existence, there can be no greatness. Without Sullivan, there is no Kraft or Brady (well, at least not here in New England).

 

[mgteich]

Believe it or not, the patriots were a great franchise before Tom Brady was drafted.

I see your point and am not denying Sullivan's importance. But at the same time, it would be like saying James and Deloris Jordan are the most important people in the Chicago Bulls franchise because they created Michael Jordan (sure, that's an exaggerated example, but I love exaggerated examples). Without James and Deloris, there is no Michael Jordan.

3 Super Bowl rings ago, Sullivan would have been top on the list along with Kraft/Parcells/Bledsoe.

But the franchise has been re-defined into the premier sporting franchise of this decade, a model upon which all other sporting teams in every sport aim to achieve, and the three most important people in doing that are Brady, Belichick and Kraft.

If I asked you who the three most important people in the history of America, who would you come up with? The first colonists who came here, or any of the great men who made the country great in the centuries after that? Again, greatness is more important than existence.

 

[BradyManny]

That's a fair statement. In terms of importance, I value the guy who created the team more than I do anyone else.

Yes, but that creation was almost undone (or at least, relocated) and was saved by Kraft. The Patriots achieved very little in the timespan between its creation and Kraft saving the team.

I am glad you admit your example was ridiculous and exaggerated. Of course, I have no idea why you brought something you admit was a ridiculous and exaggerated example into the discussion.

Because an exaggerated example can still prove a point.

Well, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. Without existence, there can be no greatness. Without Sullivan, there is no Kraft or Brady (well, at least not here in New England).

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Let's look at the significant contributors to the franchise...

1. Billy Sullivan - bought the team; without Billy there's no NE Patriots
2. James Orthwein - contributed by NOT moving the team to St Louis AND by hiring the Tuner, making the team marketable to a new owner.
3. Bill Parcells - The Tuna did turn around a perennial doormat and got the NE Patriots featured in the national media... the traitorous bastid.
4. Bob Kraft - learning on the job, he established a meritorious culture of excellence, professionalism, made Patriots games family friendly, and kept the Pats in MA away from that faux NE state CT, all while making the better part of a billion dollars doing it.
5. Bill B - Established a professional, winning culture and along the way won three (3) SuperBowls
6. Tom Brady - took over from dilletant Drew Bledsoe and took a previously 5-13 team whose HC was about to come under intense fire from Boston mediots to the SuperBowl, won it against all odds and repeated the achievement twice more.

As someone who suffered through all the long decades of losing, I appreciate the Kraft/BB/Brady triumverite the most.

 

[mb6592]

Sullivan does not belong on the list. There was going to be an NFL franchise in the New England area with or withour Sullivan - he was just the guy who bought the first Patriots team. Here's another bad analogy for you, does a father who impregnates a woman, only to eventually leave her and the child, deserve to be mentioned as one of the most important persons to the creation of that future doctor?

Kraft
Belichick
Brady
Parcells (honorable mention)

 

[Krugman]

Any list that doesnt have Belichick's name is incomplete.....and much as I like Drew Bledsoe,I cant see him and not Brady...my two cents...

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Sullivan does not belong on the list. There was going to be an NFL franchise in the New England area with or withour Sullivan - he was just the guy who bought the first Patriots team. Here's another bad analogy for you, does a father who impregnates a woman, only to eventually leave her and the child, deserve to be mentioned as one of the most important persons to the creation of that future doctor?
Say what???
Kraft
Belichick
Brady
Parcells (honorable mention)

A NE franchise was not a foregone conclusion. Pro football had failed here previously and the NE television market was not the factor then that it is now. Gate receipts were more important and risky back in good ol 1960.

 

[fgssand]

It has to be four...

Belichick

Sullivan

Brady

Kraft


Without Sullivan & Kraft - there is no New Patriot franchise.

Without Brady & Belichick - there are no Superbowls.

I cannot take any one of them out of the mix......

 

[mb6592]

A NE franchise was not a foregone conclusion. Pro football had failed here previously and the NE television market was not the factor then that it is now. Gate receipts were more important and risky back in good ol 1960.

Say what? Do you need help with something?
.
I guess your contention is there would not have been an NFL franchise in the Boston/New England area. I don't agree with you at all (maybe not exactly in good ol 1960, but eventually).

 

[fgssand]

Sullivan does not belong on the list. There was going to be an NFL franchise in the New England area with or withour Sullivan - he was just the guy who bought the first Patriots team. Here's another bad analogy for you, does a father who impregnates a woman, only to eventually leave her and the child, deserve to be mentioned as one of the most important persons to the creation of that future doctor?

Kraft
Belichick
Brady
Parcells (honorable mention)

Stupid analogy and to make light of Sullivan did and achieved as you write is ridiculous.

For you to say he merely bought the team and someone would have is very wrong and shows me you have no idea about the first 33 years of this franchise........go read your history. He took the shot and bought the team, he is the founding father.

Despite being treated horribly by a/hole politicians in Boston & Ma. - he kept the team here after turning down several offers for a lot of money to move them. He finally found a bedroom community called Foxboro, that allowed him to build his stadium. That stadium was an amazing facility in many many ways (again study your history of Schaeffer / Sullivan / Foxboro Stadium).

Billy Sullivan was not a rich man, yet his love for this team and this area is why you have a team called the New England Patriots.

 

[mgteich]

How old are you? The team had a great teams in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's, all before Belichick and Brady.

The the 1963 team was in the playoffs, even before the merger. The 1976 team was an awesone team, a team for the ages. They lost an infamous game to the Raiders in the playoffs. The 1985 team was a fine team that lost to the best team in history in the Super Bowl. The 1996 team waltzed to the Super Bowl, after a great season, and having soundly winning its playoff games. Of course, that 1996 team followed some horrible teams. And who was responsible for this turnaround? Well, his name was Bill.

I just don't take the perspective that the only teams that count as successes are those that win Super Bowls. I understand that I am likely in the minority of patriot fans in that regard.

Yes, but that creation was almost undone (or at least, relocated) and was saved by Kraft. The Patriots achieved very little in the timespan between its creation and Kraft saving the team.