Three most important people in Pats franchise history

[PatsWickedPissah]

You too need to study your Patriots history. See my previous post (2 or 3 back) on why Orthwein does NOT belong on this list.

Silly me. All this time I thought Orth hired Bill Parcells as I'd said and that Orth didn't move the team to StL and sold it to Kraft instead.

 

[mgteich]

I would not put Orth on the list, but I don't believe the choice is all that far off. Orth made good business decisions, the same thing that Kraft has been praised for.

Kraft made a poor business decision and kept the team in New England. As he has said, he made the decision with his heart instead of his head. His head said to take the $75M to let the patriots out of their contract and move on.

Didn't his staff hire Parcells and Belichick?

Silly me. All this time I thought Orth hired Bill Parcells as I'd said and that Orth didn't move the team to StL and sold it to Kraft instead.

 

[PATSNUTme]

This from Patjew? Can someone fill me in on what this means?




Where did I say I apologized?



I cant have an opinion? Why wouldnt you have any of my choices on your list? I think its a good list.

In direct answer to my suggestion that you apologize you said "I said what was needed but it was deleted".

You do what you think is right and I'll do the same.

 

[Wotan_the_Wanderer]

Kraft made a poor business decision and kept the team in New England. As he has said, he made the decision with his heart instead of his head. His head said to take the $75M to let the patriots out of their contract and move on.

That decision might have been considered poor at the time of the purchase given that I think it was the largest sum ever paid for an NFL franchise, but in the end, it proved to be a shrewd investment. What are the Pats worth now as a franchise - five times the initial purchase price?

Didn't his staff hire Parcells and Belichick?

My memory of the Kiam and Orthwein eras are a bit blurred by choice, but I think you're right. It might have been Sam Jankowitz's last significant contribution to this franchise. But again, don't quote me on this.

 

[pats1]

Seems like you've been making some friends with more of your idiotic remarks, DannyBoy.

Nice one.

 

[mb6592]

Sullivan
Parcells
Brady

All 3 put them on the map.

Nobody else matters.

I cant have an opinion? Why wouldnt you have any of my choices on your list? I think its a good list.[/QUOTE]

Danny Boy, even if we take you at your word you really believe your list of the most important people in Pats franchise history - what's with the nobody else matters? It's always the same with some people...issues, issues, issues. I will say this, at least you didn't have Orthwein on your list.

 

[PromisedLand]

I would not put Orth on the list, but I don't believe the choice is all that far off. Orth made good business decisions, the same thing that Kraft has been praised for.

Kraft made a poor business decision and kept the team in New England. As he has said, he made the decision with his heart instead of his head. His head said to take the $75M to let the patriots out of their contract and move on.

Didn't his staff hire Parcells and Belichick?

When I first read the last sentence I assumed "his" meant Kraft - but he didn't hire Parcells, Orthwein did. On the other hand, Orthwein never hired Belichick - he was HC of the Cleveland Browns when Orthwein hired Parcells, and Kraft owned the team when BB joined the staff in 96. No matter. I can give JO credit for hiring Parcells - it was a good business decision which paid off in raising the value of his asset - the team - but I can't see him as being one of the three most important men in team history. His motives were not pure, not only from the viewpoint of New Englanders but from the disingenuity he displayed for consistently publicly denying his intent to move the team, all the while setting up the move behind the scenes.

RK is the true hero for New Englanders. Orthwein did nothing more than revive a franchise which was at the bottom of a cycle which most teams repeat over and over - periods of success followed by down times, followed again by periods of success. The Patriots enjoyed moderate success in the 60's, 70's, and 80's before the low period they were muddling through when Orthwein purchased them. All with the intent of moving the team to his hometown, which had recently lost the Cardinals to AZ. Kraft, on the other hand, not only made good business decisions but made decisions to benefit the people of his native New England, even when it wasn't based only on the profit motive. He saved the team from moving in 1994, then again when he bucked the odds to get the first privately financecd stadium built. Then, by hiring Belichick he laid the foundation for one of the most successful on-the-field run in NFL history.

 

[PromisedLand]

Silly me. All this time I thought Orth hired Bill Parcells as I'd said and that Orth didn't move the team to StL and sold it to Kraft instead.

Of course, but don't you understand WHY he didn't move the team and sold it to Kraft? He wanted to, he intended to, and he would have, but Kraft gave him no choice. Kraft had him by the proverbial chestnuts and wouldn't let go. So why you are giving Orthwein credit for that is beyond me.

 

[PromisedLand]

There comes a point where you have to look at the intended consequences of an individual's actions (I thought this would be obvious to people, but some of the arguments in this thread show it is not so obvious). Lamar Hunt did not create the AFL with the singular goal of establishing professional football in New England, that was just a consequence of his actions. If New England hadn't signed on to the AFL, the AFL still would have existed.

Billy Sullivan said "Let's make a franchise in New England and call them the Patriots." That is why his contributions to this franchise are greater than someone like Hunt's.

I think your point regarding intent is valid (and is another reason why James Orthwein does NOT belong anywhere near this list!), but I still stand by my top three:

1. Kraft
2. Belichick
3. Brady

I could probably be convinced that Billy Sullivan should be at #4.

 

[mgteich]

Quite right. It was Kraft who passed on $75M to force Ortho to sell.

Of course, but don't you understand WHY he didn't move the team and sold it to Kraft? He wanted to, he intended to, and he would have, but Kraft gave him no choice. Kraft had him by the proverbial chestnuts and wouldn't let go. So why you are giving Orthwein credit for that is beyond me.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I wonder where the Patriots frnachise would be today had Billy Sullivan not had to sell the team. Would they still be playing in the Fox? With no luxury boxes or club seats? Maybe make the seats with chairbacks club seats

How would the Patriots have been successful had Sullivan stayed as owner?

Would he have hired Parcells or BB? Where would the team be today? As successful as they are today or just like Arizona who they were sometimes compared to?

 

[QuiGon]

I wonder where the Patriots frnachise would be today had Billy Sullivan not had to sell the team.

I guess that makes Michael Jackson one of the most important people in Pats' franchise history

 

[Patjew]

This from Patjew? Can someone fill me in on what this means?

It means that I have a noun in my username, not an adjective. Some words can be used in a non-offensive way in one manner, but come across as offensive in another way. "Jew" is such an example when used as a noun or an adjective, respectively. You either understand this already and are purposely acting obtuse, or you truly are ignorant. And frankly, my dannyboy, I don't give a damn. Now back to ignore.

PS- Fitzy says GFY.

 

[RayClay]

A Patriots fan since their American Football League days, he has been a season ticket holder since 1972. He bought an option on the parcel which contained Sullivan Stadium, then the home of the Patriots, in 1985. In 1988, he outbid several competitors to buy the stadium out of bankruptcy court for $25 million. It was renamed Foxboro Stadium in 1990. These transactions and Kraft's overall business success ultimately gave him the leverage to become owner of the New England Patriots.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kraft

No Sullivan, no Kraft

 

[PromisedLand]

I guess that makes Michael Jackson one of the most important people in Pats' franchise history

Actually, everyone who did NOT buy a ticket to the Michael Jackson Foxboro Stadium concert deserves credit for making the Patriots what they are today! Which is pretty much everyone in the world, except for the three or four thousand who actually went!

 

[RayClay]

I wonder where the Patriots frnachise would be today had Billy Sullivan not had to sell the team. Would they still be playing in the Fox? With no luxury boxes or club seats? Maybe make the seats with chairbacks club seats

How would the Patriots have been successful had Sullivan stayed as owner?

Would he have hired Parcells or BB? Where would the team be today? As successful as they are today or just like Arizona who they were sometimes compared to?

Ever watch Sherman and Peabody on Bullwinkle? (I know I'm dating myself).

They go back in time to change the one small situation that would slightly change the course of events causing a major change in history.

Follow me.

For Kraft to buy the team, Billy Sullivan had to first, try every Stadium idea in Boston for over 10 year, build the tin can stadium in Foxboro go into debt by having the third highest payroll while going to the Super Bowl in 1985, also having a mutton head son and the Michael Jackson fiasco.


The rest is history


"He bought an option on the parcel which contained Sullivan Stadium, then the home of the Patriots, in 1985. In 1988, he outbid several competitors to buy the stadium out of bankruptcy court for $25 million. It was renamed Foxboro Stadium in 1990. These transactions and Kraft's overall business success ultimately gave him the leverage to become owner of the New England Patriots."

"In 1992, the Patriots themselves were bought by James Orthwein, a St. Louis native. For the next two years, rumors of a Patriots move to St.Louis were rampant based on the fact that Orthwein wanted to return the NFL to a city that had lost the Cardinals in 1988. Finally, in 1994, Orthwein offered Kraft $75 million to buy out the remainder of the team's lease at the Foxboro Stadium. If Kraft agreed, it would free Orthwein to move the Patriots to St. Louis. Kraft turned him down, instead making a $175 million bid to buy the team and save the Patriots from relocation. Orthwein had little choice but to accept -"

Sullivan had to build the team and totally mess up for the Stadium to go bankrupt, Kraft to to have Orthwein in a lease agreement he couldn't get out of to move the team to St.Louis like he wanted to.

 

[italian pat patriot]

Billy Sullivan said "Let's make a franchise in New England and call them the Patriots." That is why his contributions to this franchise are greater

ver well said - i totally agree

without him no Pats for me too

1 - Billy Sullivan
2 - Robert Kraft
3 - Bill Belichick

 

[Wretch]

I guess that makes Michael Jackson one of the most important people in Pats' franchise history

Yes it does.

I vote for:
Mo Lewis
Michael Jackson
Insert the member of the Sullivan family responsible for investing in the Jackson tour.

 

[PromisedLand]

Ever watch Sherman and Peabody on Bullwinkle? (I know I'm dating myself).

They go back in time to change the one small situation that would slightly change the course of events causing a major change in history.

This is a well known idea - it's summarized best (I think) by the four word phrase, "flap of a butterfly's wings". I don't know where it originates, but the idea is that but for the flap of a butterfly's wings, because the way events chain on other events the entire world would be different.