How much longer will Patrick Chung last?

[patfanken]

I didn't say extend that idea to the stupidest thing possible, but thanks for your contribution.

The only reason those people were on the team is we didn't have reliable people even though we had spent high picks.

I guess posting the stupidest thing possible just makes my point that if we have someone steady we shouldn't dump him, otherwise we end up with a secondary like you mentioned.

Not to worry Ray. There are 2 crowds of haters here. The first fall roughly in the "I want it and I want it NOW! crowd. You know the guy who sees a completed pass and automatically assumes that some one ****ed up and wants them executed......at least! These are the spoiled Pats fans. They are happiest when they are blaming someone for something

Then there is the group DI belongs to. They simply assume that whatever they think is the correct answer and you are an idiot for thinking differently. they are more subtle in that they often hide their arguments amid threads of validity. But its not the truth or validity that they are after, but rather to beat you senseless with a never ending drone of the same thing over and over. The message board equivalent of a big law firm burying a small litigant in expensive paperwork to kill a suit.

No matter how often you respond to him, he will simply ignore what you say and repeat his own point again.......AND you will never, ever, ever get the last word. He is much more patient and relentless than anyone who will ever ply these boards.....and his post count proves it

Its not like he doesn't contribute some valuable observations. But there is no sense ever to disagree, even in the slightest. There simply aren't enough hours in the day.

 

[Deus Irae]

I didn't say extend that idea to the stupidest thing possible, but thanks for your contribution.

It's not stupid. It's making the point that your argument sucks by noting what it would result in.

The only reason those people were on the team is we didn't have reliable people even though we had spent high picks.

The only reason Chung and Gregory are on the team is that they don't have better and more reliable people, too.

I guess posting the stupidest thing possible just makes my point that if we have someone steady we shouldn't dump him, otherwise we end up with a secondary like you mentioned.

Your post made a poor argument. My response was noting the problem with using the argument you made in your post. If there was any stupidity involved, it was in your idea that poor players should be kept for continuity's sake.

 

[Nikolai]

I missed pages 2-15, but I just wanted to say that Chung was a big binky of mine through 2009 and 2010. I've had high hopes, but now we're into year four and still not much doing. In fact, I've even noticed a little less of his trademark aggression against the run; probably the result of an improved front 7.

He's probably done after this season...what could have been...

 

[everlong]

Then there is the group DI belongs to. They simply assume that whatever they think is the correct answer and you are an idiot for thinking differently.

There's a lot of homers who fit that description too and I'm more of a homer than a hater.

 

[everlong]

Cutting a player who isn't making much money in the first place vs. letting a player leave as an UFA when someone else offers him more than he's worth are two very different things. I don't think that anyone's advocating cutting Chung. Just speculating that the Patriots are likely to let him walk as a FA if he gets anything close to Michael Griffin money.

I can't see him getting Griffin money. I don't think he's done nearly enough to be viewed in those terms around the league and that's with Griffin being very up and down. That said I think the Patriots will negotiate with him. I think he's likely to get Law Firm type of money which may be enough for the Patriots to let him walk if he doesn't become more consistent.

 

[RayClay]

Not to worry Ray. There are 2 crowds of haters here. The first fall roughly in the "I want it and I want it NOW! crowd. You know the guy who sees a completed pass and automatically assumes that some one ****ed up and wants them executed......at least! These are the spoiled Pats fans. They are happiest when they are blaming someone for something

Then there is the group DI belongs to. They simply assume that whatever they think is the correct answer and you are an idiot for thinking differently. they are more subtle in that they often hide their arguments amid threads of validity. But its not the truth or validity that they are after, but rather to beat you senseless with a never ending drone of the same thing over and over. The message board equivalent of a big law firm burying a small litigant in expensive paperwork to kill a suit.

No matter how often you respond to him, he will simply ignore what you say and repeat his own point again.......AND you will never, ever, ever get the last word. He is much more patient and relentless than anyone who will ever ply these boards.....and his post count proves it

Its not like he doesn't contribute some valuable observations. But there is no sense ever to disagree, even in the slightest. There simply aren't enough hours in the day.

Ha ha. And if you get the last word finally, you'd like that hour of your life back anyway.

Seriously though, you've played defensive back, right? As a casual fan, it seems to me that a group of hard working players can make a great unit, much stronger than it's parts. Every member doesn't need to be an all pro if they um..."do their job?". I think this is true in the LB/DB section of an NFL defense as much as any example of teamwork anywhere.

I think our defense is going to gel, even though we might improve talent wise in the future. A player coming right in and being a leader is the exception, not the rule. Rodney was a great vet, Adalius a great bust. No substitute for playing and practicing under a great coaching staff IMO.

 

[BradyManny]

They simply assume that whatever they think is the correct answer and you are an idiot for thinking differently.

Ken - that's now 3 arguably arrogant posts serving no purpose but to disparage & generalize other posters viewpoints and stifle debate.

 

[BradyManny]

I never said he was beyond criticism. I even paraphrased Bedard's criticism. But just look at the thread title. Has Chung's play warranted being blown out of town like Sanders or Meriweather?

The other thing is people make these blanket statements in all these threads, both protecting and bashing the players. Chung sucks. Chung is great. At least support your argument. The Chandler play is a fair example of Chung biting up, getting out of position and getting beat. He is definitely a better player when he's coming forward to make a play no doubt about it.

Is he the the trash some are suggesting? No.

If we're looking for a messageboard devoid of hyperbole and gut reactions, we're certainly not going to find it on a sports related forum. I'm sure you and others have learned by now that you just have to ignore the noise on either side.

The initial post might've been hyperbole, but much of the debate that followed was rather reasonable. The guy is a free agent at the end of the year. Its worth discussing his future - and his performance thus far this year.

 

[ATippett56]

If we're looking for a messageboard devoid of hyperbole and gut reactions, we're certainly not going to find it on a sports related forum. I'm sure you and others have learned by now that you just have to ignore the noise on either side.

The initial post might've been hyperbole, but much of the debate that followed was rather reasonable. The guy is a free agent at the end of the year. Its worth discussing his future - and his performance thus far this year.

The 2013 NFL Salary Cap is currently projected to be $121.1 million. The New England Patriots salary cap expenditures currently stand at approximately $103.4 million with 38 players under contract.

New England Patriots Salary Cap 2013

 

[supafly]

The 2013 NFL Salary Cap is currently projected to be $121.1 million. The New England Patriots salary cap expenditures currently stand at approximately $103.4 million with 38 players under contract.

New England Patriots Salary Cap 2013

And about 9 million more in cap room that will be carried over from this year too, right?

 

[supafly]

That said I think the Patriots will negotiate with him.

I definitely think they'll negotiate with him for sure.

He may not be keeping his starting role here beyond this year (or he may--depending upon any upgrades we can make), but I actually think that there is a decent chance that he is retained at a reasonable price.

I would still want Chung here for sure, and I really don't think it should be anywhere near Griffen money, but I don't want to have to continue to rely on his poor coverage skills either; at least not as an every down starter.

I think some of us would be pleased having Chung as the 3rd safety on a reasonable deal, but most of us would like the position improved.

Another way to go as some have mentioned, is the possibility of bringing in someone else to pair alongside of him, assuming that may help the situation. Whether that may be Wilson or not remains to be seen. I would like the position addressed via FA and the draft, and I expect that it will be.

 

[ATippett56]

And about 9 million more in cap room that will be carried over from this year too, right?

How about taking into account expenditures associated with Injured Reserve, PUP List as well as the practice squad? For the 2012 NFL season, the salary cap hit for the New England Patriots for injured reserve currently stands at roughly $5.8 million.

New England Patriots Salary Cap 2012

 

[VJCPatriot]

The Rams didn't snake Delmas 1 pick ahead of the Pats. Delmas was drafted by the LIONS 1 pick ahead of the Pats. Not to mention that Delmas hasn't exactly been the epitome of health. He missed 1+ game each of his first two years and then he missed 5 games last year and has missed 4 games so far this year. Which is 1 more than Chung has missed and people are whining about Chung not being able to stay on the field..

So your point is that Chung has been nearly as unhealthy as Delmas but beats him by a whole whopping game in terms of longevity? ... Ok, sure, if that's your point, you win. Chung is nearly as unhealthy as Delmas and they were taken a pick apart as I mentioned.

None of this changes the fact that Chung has looked unreliable in coverage and he needs to improve a lot in that area. Of note is that Chung will be a free agent at the end of the year, and it does not look like he has earned a fat extension. But looking at the dearth of even competent safety play at the NFL level, it is likely that some desperate team will overpay for his services but I don't see the fiscally disciplined Pats as one of those teams. Which likely means that safety will be seen as a big need going into the 2013 draft. Yes I'm predicting we will pick at least one safety in 2013.

 

[RayClay]

Your post made a poor argument. My response was noting the problem with using the argument you made in your post. If there was any stupidity involved, it was in your idea that poor players should be kept for continuity's sake.

You're saying Chung is such a poor player we should dump him despite him being our most experienced player in the secondary?

 

[BPF]

25% of the league is allowing 400+ total yds defensively and all but 6 teams are allowing an avg of 300+ yds per game. Yds given up is no longer a meaningful stat and to continue to believe it is not understanding today's game. Passing efficiency is up.

Let's look at the Steelers, a team that is currently ranked 5th on D because it's tracked in yds allowed but they've given up 34 pts to the Raiders and 30 to the Broncos in their losses. To me looking at them they are a bottom 5 defense no doubt about it. There are few stats that mean something on D: pts given up, 3rd down % and turnovers. Yds given up is a not a good measure of a team's ability to play D so analyzing players based off that is not sound.

Despite what the guys at WEEI and The Sports Hub say the Pats are really close to having a really good D....all the 2nd youngest D is terms of age needs is a little more time to gel and grow. That includes the Safeties. Personally I think McCourty and Arrington are playing really well.

I like this site, better indicator of rankings vs NFL.com: DPS - Defensive Productivity Stat

 

[supafly]

How about taking into account expenditures associated with Injured Reserve, PUP List as well as the practice squad? For the 2012 NFL season, the salary cap hit for the New England Patriots for injured reserve currently stands at roughly $5.8 million.

New England Patriots Salary Cap 2012

I don't know, that's precisely why I was asking you the question.

When jason the salary cap expert and PFT released the latest numbers a few weeks ago, I assumed that they had that figured in to the equation, as the estimates were approximately 9 million still.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/09/08/team-by-team-cap-space-as-of-september-7/

 

[ATippett56]

I don't know, that's precisely why I was asking you the question.

When jason the salary cap expert and PFT released the latest numbers a few weeks ago, I assumed that they had that figured in to the equation, as the estimates were approximately 9 million still.

Team-by-team cap space as of September 7 | ProFootballTalk

I assume it's in the range of somewhere between $8 million and $9 million.

 

[Observer]

Given how difficult it has been for us to find a serviceable safety, I would say Chung will last a while.

 

[livinginthe past]

25% of the league is allowing 400+ total yds defensively and all but 6 teams are allowing an avg of 300+ yds per game. Yds given up is no longer a meaningful stat and to continue to believe it is not understanding today's game. Passing efficiency is up.

Let's look at the Steelers, a team that is currently ranked 5th on D because it's tracked in yds allowed but they've given up 34 pts to the Raiders and 30 to the Broncos in their losses. To me looking at them they are a bottom 5 defense no doubt about it. There are few stats that mean something on D: pts given up, 3rd down % and turnovers. Yds given up is a not a good measure of a team's ability to play D so analyzing players based off that is not sound.

Despite what the guys at WEEI and The Sports Hub say the Pats are really close to having a really good D....all the 2nd youngest D is terms of age needs is a little more time to gel and grow. That includes the Safeties. Personally I think McCourty and Arrington are playing really well.

I like this site, better indicator of rankings vs NFL.com: DPS - Defensive Productivity Stat

Great post.

Absolutely agreed on the metrics that should count - 3rd down conversion percentage, points conceded - yards conceded is ticky tack and can be greatly manipulated by teams looking to bomb it deep due to be being in a hole (and a D letting them have yardage as long as it is inbounds and keeping the clock running).

This D is definitely moving in the right direction, but the safety pairing has been in alot of upheavel in recent seasons and alot of the rest of the unit is young.

 

[aluminum seats]

They haven't really played together much. Chung's played four, missed half, then 3./4 of a season. Played with meriweather when he was healthy. McCourty and arrington have played with patchwork lineups since they started.

Compare to Bruschi, McGinest and Law when we were at our best. Long way to go to reach that level and that goes for most of our D.

I'm not saying a talented young bunch can't go all the way, we were close last year, but it would be the exception, not the rule. Experience alone, and even more with a group - makes the pack stronger than the wolf.

Starting over every few years with the shiny new draft picks is obviously the approach of losers. Why else would the teams with the worst picks beat the teams who pick highest and do it on a consistent basis? If you gave the pats the top draft pick every year they's still compete, while the bottom feeders would still lose yet, despite that evidence, posters are sure if we just cut everybody for unknown picks we'd prosper.

Well, sure. A cohesive unit of talented guys is obviously the ideal. The question each year is, what do we have, and are there better alternatives?

Chung was (and is) under contract this year, he's shown flashes, so it was pretty much a no-brainer he'd be back. And again, I hope he stays healthy and helps the Pats win a Super Bowl.

But next year, I'm pretty sure he'll be playing elsewhere.