Don't hit me: Would taking Moss away from Brady make Brady better?

[emoney_33]

Spending $9M on Moss ($20M of which he received in 2008 and 2009 as his employer noted yesterday) is one of the reasons we don't have better multiple receiving options and a better defense these days...

Mo I'm not doubting the possibility, although I disagree. Are there any players you see that we have failed to sign because of Moss' 08/09 cap hit that would have made us significantly better? Remember in 2008, with Cassel, we were a very dangerous team at the end of the season. (Still a damn shame an 11-5 team missed the playoffs while 8-8(?) and 9-7 teams got in.)

If Moss is not the focus, he will disappear altogether. Keeping him engaged has become as much a part of the problem as any kind of solution.

That's your opinion, with little factual backing and a whole lot of conjecture/assumptions.

There is no way this team and all the players would ever suddenly change just to baby one single player. He was voted as a captain 2 years in a row because his teammates genuinely like him and feel he is captain material (and he WILL be captain again in 2010).

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The offense that struggled to score and wasn't as good as the 07 or even 09 offenses. Yeah I long for those days too :/



Only 2007 did he have a better TD:INT ratio. Every year of his career he has thrown 12-14 INT (except 2007).



Doesn't fight for them anymore? Separated shoulder... and led the league in TDs.




Brady had to spread the ball around in 2006, do you REALLY want to go back to that? Moss has been a part of 2 of the 3 best offenses the Patriots have fielded this decade, with 2004 (Dillon monster year) being the only case against 2009.

We didn't win in 03/04 because Brady spread the ball around, we won for many many many reasons. Moss is not preventing us from getting WR depth, but WR depth is absolutely something we need (ala 2007 not 2006)

Sure he is for a number of reasons, not the least of which is financial. This team has always budgeted by unit. Moss and Welker eat up 90% of that budget within the WR unit. Moss eats up the lions share of that 90%. Welker basically got Givens money. Moss got Branch's and everyone else's. That left them shopping the scrap heep to attempt to fill the gaps in a 5 wide sight adjusted timing offense...

In 2006 we got to the AFCC game and might have advanced if not for the flu and the loss of Harrison again and a bug eyed underachiever who had a penchant for dropping the easy ones replacing a guy he was supposed to play second fiddle to, but yeah, I'd take that over 2009 any day. Give me Welker when he's ready, Edleman, Tate, Branch if he's available (and I'd trade something for him if I picked up some trade capital moving Moss) or another mid level veteran, and a 2nd rounder and a late rounder with intangibles - and Patten filling any gaps to mid season - and Brady focused on building rapore with that group from April thru August and I'll take my chances rather than watch another season of as Randy's World Turns unfold with multiple Brady body parts littering the injury report even as he finds a way to force double digit TD's to Moss over the course of the regular season to no avail.

This team isn't built at the LOS to support a deep thread who isn't physical and versatile to boot. In order to succeed with Moss they would have to both overhaul the OL and dramatically upgrade the receiving corps leaving meager capital to continue the defensive transition Moss' acquisition and extension was expected to support. Absent Moss they can augment and reconfigure this offense and that alone will give DC's fits since it will render the blueprint obsolete. Teams won't have any idea what they are dealing with until mid season, at which time Welker will return and pose a whole other set of circumstances. Meanwhile they can focus additional capital on completing the defensive transition.

That's probably not what they will do, but it would be ballsy if they did.

 

[emoney_33]

Sure he is for a number of reasons, not the least of which is financial. This team has always budgeted by unit. Moss and Welker eat up 90% of that budget within the WR unit. Moss eats up the lions share of that 90%. Welker basically got Givens money. Moss got Branch's and everyone else's. That left them shopping the scrap heep to attempt to fill the gaps in a 5 wide sight adjusted timing offense...

Where do you get your budget numbers? Who was a FA in 08 or 09 that we didn't sign due to budget?

In 2006 we got to the AFCC game and might have advanced if not for the flu and the loss of Harrison again and a bug eyed underachiever who had a penchant for dropping the easy ones replacing a guy he was supposed to play second fiddle to, but yeah, I'd take that over 2009 any day.

2009 had many more problems than some argument you are making up that Moss is hurting the team. Both 07 and 08 can play the "if not for" game too.

Give me Welker when he's ready, Edleman, Tate, Branch if he's available (and I'd trade something for him if I picked up some trade capital moving Moss) or another mid level veteran, and a 2nd rounder and a late rounder with intangibles - and Patten filling any gaps to mid season - and Brady focused on building rapore with that group from April thru August and I'll take my chances rather than watch another season of as Randy's World Turns unfold with multiple Brady body parts littering the injury report even as he finds a way to force double digit TD's to Moss over the course of the regular season to no avail.

Mo, this is not a rational paragraph. I'll never understand your passionate hatred for Randy Moss but the whole "forcing" it to double digit TD statement is just ridiculous... You are basically arguing that he should have forced the ball to Aiken, because Welker led the league in receptions while missing 3 games.

This team isn't built at the LOS to support a deep thread who isn't physical and versatile to boot. In order to succeed with Moss they would have to both overhaul the OL and dramatically upgrade the receiving corps leaving meager capital to continue the defensive transition Moss' acquisition and extension was expected to support. Absent Moss they can augment and reconfigure this offense and that alone will give DC's fits since it will render the blueprint obsolete. Teams won't have any idea what they are dealing with until mid season, at which time Welker will return and pose a whole other set of circumstances. Meanwhile they can focus additional capital on completing the defensive transition.

That's probably not what they will do, but it would be ballsy if they did.

What are you talking about, did you sleep through 2007? Did you not see how dangerous of a team we were at the end of 2008? Do you see Cassel's numbers without Moss/Welker? PS: Moss/Welker did NOT prevent the team from getting WR help in 08/09. They traded a good pick for Lewis, signed Galloway, CHOSE not to overspend on Stallworth and Gaffney. Stallworth/Gaffney wouldn't have been overpaid for even without Moss' contract.

2009 had a tremendous overhaul in losing many defensive veterans and leaders. THAT is the single biggest reason for the disappointment of 2009. It's already been proven we can win with Moss, unless you try to argue that 18-0 never happened and that Moss was absolutely the reason we lost the SB.

Arguing that we need the 03/04 receivers completely ignores the fact we had a GREAT defense back then. 03 had the best defense this team has seen (friggin incredible defense) and 04 had a great defense along with a superb workhorse beaten into the ground year of Dillon.

The receiving group was NOT the group mainly responsible for those superbowls. Just go look at the titans playoff game, the offense did pretty much squat and if the 2009 defense was on that team it would have been 1 and done as well even with your nostalgic branch, brown, patten group of receivers.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Emoney, Moss's agent would be proud of you

 

[Disco Volante]

Tom Brady's two best statistical seasons were both with Randy Moss, including the greatest season by QB, ever.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I wouldn't think it would make Brady better, but I think it's in best interest of the team to go back to the deeper, cheaper WR sets that we had in the glory days. And I feel this is Randy's last season here unless he wants to resign in the $4-5 M per range(which is unlikely I'd suppose). But to answer the original question, no. Brady had his best season ever thanks to 81 and yes, others... but mostly 81.

 

[emoney_33]

I wouldn't think it would make Brady better, but I think it's in best interest of the team to go back to the deeper, cheaper WR sets that we had in the glory days. And I feel this is Randy's last season here unless he wants to resign in the $4-5 M per range(which is unlikely I'd suppose). But to answer the original question, no. Brady had his best season ever thanks to 81 and yes, others... but mostly 81.

This is the part I don't understand. How is it in the best interest of the team to go back to the days where our offense was NOT as good as it is now? The only way that would help the overall team is if the money invested in the offense is preventing us from improving the defense, which I don't believe is the case.

We can't take the entirety of 03/04, which was the combination of a whole boatload of good things happening at once (offense, defense, special teams, coaching, youth, veterans, etc. etc...) to assume that the 03/04 WR corps is better for the team. That grossly over simplifies that amazing run and is insulting to everything else that contributed to that amazing 2 year stretch.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Where do you get your budget numbers? Who was a FA in 08 or 09 that we didn't sign due to budget?

Gaffney was either allowed to walk over half a million per, guaranteed money and length of deal or maybe even because they didn't think he was talented enough to make the Moss equation work...even though he had excellent rapore with the QB's in this system and the departing OC valued that even absent that caliber QB.

2009 had many more problems than some argument you are making up that Moss is hurting the team. Both 07 and 08 can play the "if not for" game too.

Sure they can, but you can just as easily point to Moss not being the ultimate difference maker in those years, too. Watching Brady's determination to break that record with and for Moss was, in hindsight, just a little troubling and the precursor of a mindset to come. Listening to game after game of one QB and then another reiterate how WE had to find a way to get him more involved...NO, what we needed to do was find a way to win despite him...and I really fear we are in for MOTS in 2010 unless that institutional mindset dramatically changes.

Mo, this is not a rational paragraph. I'll never understand your passionate hatred for Randy Moss but the whole "forcing" it to double digit TD statement is just ridiculous... You are basically arguing that he should have forced the ball to Aiken, because Welker led the league in receptions while missing 3 games.

I don't hate Moss, that is simply the excuse you make for anyone who doesn't see him as the mega talent you still insist he is. And even when he was, it never amounted to enough to win anyone a ring. Football is a funny game that way. Teamwork routinely trumps talent. I didn't think BB would trade for him for a number of reasons. I never thought he was the devil incarnate. But I also never believed he was a patriots type player. BB was enamored of the talent, and won over by the understanding of and professed love for the game. There's only one problem, that love is fickle because the player is thinskinned and not equipped to deal with adversity in part because of his freakish talent. You learn a lot more about a player and a team when they lose than when they win. I watched the way they interacted in 2007, and how that changed imperceptably in 2008 and how by 2009 Bill was not interacting with him much at all and in one game in particular he was looking at him the way my father used to look at me when I had thoroughly confounded or disappointed him.

Bill isn't Tuna. He doesn't live to find their buttons. He dreads it when he has to attempt to. He wants self motivated self starters. He will give a guy a shot at redemption but he won't manage them like a therapist. He's too busy coaching and strategizing and game planning to hand hold. That he had to in this players case this season is unfortunate and extremely telling.

What are you talking about, did you sleep through 2007? Sadly, no I did not. Apparently you were so taken by what you saw in the first 3 months of that season you dismissed what you didn't see in the last month or the post season Did you not see how dangerous of a team we were at the end of 2008? Yeah, but I also realized it would take Cassel time to get his footing and by then the schedule didn't hurt. Do you see Cassel's numbers without Moss/Welker? LOL, you're not that stupid, and desperation really doesn't become you. PS: Moss/Welker did NOT prevent the team from getting WR help in 08/09. They traded a good pick for Lewis, signed Galloway, CHOSE not to overspend on Stallworth and Gaffney. Stallworth/Gaffney wouldn't have been overpaid for even without Moss' contract. Gaffney wasn't overpaid, just a little too rich for this unit already paying 2 guys $12M combined. Stallworth was slotted for Branch's money had he panned out. He didn't. Lewis and Galloway are just symptomatic of what BB has to do to stay on budget when someone gets a big deal (be it on offense or defense). He tried to sign Mason for $4M after Branch won that MVP because he knew what was coming and how hard it would he to retain either Branch or Givens while extending Brady and remaining viable on defense. As a result he ended up with Caldwell as an unintended #1 (although he still managed to make it to the AFCC where they led substantially at the half...

2009 had a tremendous overhaul in losing many defensive veterans and leaders. THAT is the single biggest reason for the disappointment of 2009. No, it's not. This offense was inconsistent and out of synch all season. You can blame it on injuries, Brady choses not to. Everyone plays through injuries in this league. I respect the guys who like Brady and Welker don't use them as excuses for poor performance... It's already been proven we can win with Moss, unless you try to argue that 18-0 never happened and that Moss was absolutely the reason we lost the SB. 18-1 happened once, but that was two years ago and in the interim DC's have proven that the blueprint to stopping that offense was no fluke because they've been giving it fits ever since no matter who's throwing the ball to or lining up across from Moss.

Arguing that we need the 03/04 receivers completely ignores the fact we had a GREAT defense back then. 03 had the best defense this team has seen (friggin incredible defense) and 04 had a great defense along with a superb workhorse beaten into the ground year of Dillon. We could afford a great defense then. Dillon was extended after that season and that was a mistake, too because his last really good season was also an anomoly and his next two were increasingly useless as he still managed some yards and scores but he was tapping out so often he was never there when they really needed him situationally and his replacement lasted 6 games and Maroney was situationally misused and abused in the process, something we paid dearly for over the next couple of seasons...although Maroney did step up down the stretch in 2007 when SOMEONE had to...

The receiving group was NOT the group mainly responsible for those superbowls. Just go look at the titans playoff game, the offense did pretty much squat and if the 2009 defense was on that team it would have been 1 and done as well even with your nostalgic branch, brown, patten group of receivers.

They were as was Brady because of the bang they provided for less bucks leaving more to be spent and invested on defense. Moss is already publicly musing about where he will get his next deal because setting up his exit strategy for that is more important to him than being a leader or winning here, which is probably why none of the teams he's played for has ever won a damn thing when it mattered most. And that's a fact. Individual statistics are sexy. At the end of the day the only stat that matters is the one that appears in the W-L column. Which is likely why Bill says stats are for losers.

 

[DaBronxPats14]

Brady always adjusted to whoever he had as his receiving core. I think Moss being away from Brady and Pats org. will hinder him more. I think his play will slack off not because of his talent but his will & heart to play. He seems to take games off in his past. He really wanted to play with Brady & Pats I think he showed up majority of the time. I wouldn't fix anything thats not broken & see how Moss is with his injury and what BB proposes $$$ wise.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

I can't see how anyone here can't agree that Brady is most dangerous when he has an offense to where he can throw the ball to the 'open receiver' to which any of the receivers including tight ends are in sights of his passes and know how to CATCH them.

Brady zeroing in on 2 targets because the others suck is not as good as it was 5 years ago,I would rather have 5 no big names but solid contributors than just 2 good ones on the field and 3 that blow.

 

[emoney_33]

Mo you have a whole ton of conjecture and reading into what you think BB thought and why he acted as he did or signed who he signed etc...

You watched how BB interacted with Moss on the TV feed, and that is supposed to mean something? It means as much as Brady's body language did in 2006.

The bottom line is that we have been a better offense with Moss than without. You can glorify the offenses of the past, but an elite receiver like Moss is better to put with Brady than 3 mediocre/decent receivers. This doesn't go for just Moss. I never want to go back to the 01-06 receivers, ever again, whether our #1 is Moss or another top-end talent.

The fact that you bring up the no ring argument again not only belittles the 2007 team, which was the best team the Patriots have ever had but it belittles everything else that went into the 2003-2004 run aside from the receivers.

Please tell me you aren't serious when you say the offense was out of sync all year and it was the BIGGEST reason for the disappointment. Please, please, please don't tell me you believe the defense wasn't the lesser unit. There is no blueprint, as much as you want to believe there is. And throw away Moss' separated shoulder all you want, but if injuries aren't an excuse then Welker has no excuse for getting 0 receptions in the playoffs in 2009.

Do you believe that Branch with a separated shoulder along with Givens and Brown would be a "winning" offense? There is no magical formula to winning, it's a combination of a lot of things. Not some magical, mythical aura that a player just wills through to win. How come Patten didn't will other teams to win? Branch? Givens?

Moss had the winning TD in the superbowl of a perfect season until the overpaid selfish nitwit decided he didn't need to cover Tyree anymore and walked away from his responsibility. Are you honestly blaming the no ring in 2007 on some perceived inability to win that attribute to Randy Moss?

Btw, If you don't think Moss/Welker helped Cassel's numbers and that he would have had better numbers with Branch, Givens and Brown then I don't know what to tell you.

We could afford a great defense then

So you take Moss' $10M cap figure and get to spend it elsewhere. Right here you just insinuated that Moss $10M figure prevented us from affording a great defense. So exactly how much of that do you put into the defense? All the while being able to afford Branch, Givens, Brown along with Welker.

Would you be saying the same thing if we were paying Fitzgerald or another top 10 receiver $10M?

What happened to Branch and Givens in 2003 DIV and AFCC games?

PS: It's hard for me to quote specific points if you throw them embedded inside a quote block.

They were as was Brady because of the bang they provided for less bucks leaving more to be spent and invested on defense. Moss is already publicly musing about where he will get his next deal because setting up his exit strategy for that is more important to him than being a leader or winning here, which is probably why none of the teams he's played for has ever won a damn thing when it mattered most. And that's a fact. Individual statistics are sexy. At the end of the day the only stat that matters is the one that appears in the W-L column. Which is likely why Bill says stats are for losers.

It is the offseason, and you are taking one out of context quote during a softball charity game as your basis for accusing Moss of putting his next deal ahead of "being a leader or winning here". Yet you ignore his subsequent comments of getting back to 07 performance and working hard to get back to high offense in 2010. You also attribute Branch with this leadership and willingness to win and all that fluff while ignoring his FORCED exit strategy that 100% completely handcuffed the team in 06 and all because he wanted his next DEAL.

This is about the 100th time you threw up "stats are for losers" comment way out of context. BB uses stats as part of analysis tool to sign, draft and extend players. There is 100% unequivocally no question about that.

There is not a chance in hell you can effectively analyze a single player or his worth to a team by looking at W/L. At the end of the day for the team W/L is what you strive for, but you cannot possibly build a team that is likely to Win a lot without the use of statistics.

In Conclusion

Moss makes the offense better and the only way he could possibly be hurting this team is if his salary was so high that it prevented us from improving the defense so much so that the overall team would benefit. Moss is NOT the reason we haven't won since 04 and he was a Samuel selfish act away from being a major reason why we won it all with a perfect season.

 

[King Hippo's Bandaid]

We should trade Moss Watson and Maroney for Chris Johnson and Bo Scaife.

Straight up!!!!!!

 

[emoney_33]

I can't see how anyone here can't agree that Brady is most dangerous when he has an offense to where he can throw the ball to the 'open receiver' to which any of the receivers including tight ends are in sights of his passes and know how to CATCH them.

Brady zeroing in on 2 targets because the others suck is not as good as it was 5 years ago,I would rather have 5 no big names but solid contributors than just 2 good ones on the field and 3 that blow.

Because despite your stubborn decision to create mistruths, the facts show that isn't the case.

You guys are incorrectly attributing the failures of replacing Stallworth/Gaffney to Moss.

I'll take the $10M #1 receiver + Welker and 2 other serviceable receivers over the 4 decent receivers every single season.

 

[The Dynasty]

I can't see how anyone here can't agree that Brady is most dangerous when he has an offense to where he can throw the ball to the 'open receiver' to which any of the receivers including tight ends are in sights of his passes and know how to CATCH them.

Brady zeroing in on 2 targets because the others suck is not as good as it was 5 years ago,I would rather have 5 no big names but solid contributors than just 2 good ones on the field and 3 that blow.

The stats dont back your point up though:

2003: WR Branch/Givens/Brown/Patten/Johnson
Brady Passing Yards: 3620
2004: WR Givens/Patten/Branch/Brown/Johnson
Brady Passing Yards: 3692
2007: WR Moss/Welker/Stallworth/Gaffney
Brady Passing Yards: 4806
2009: WR Moss/Welker/Aiken/Edelman
Brady Passing Yards: 4398

Brady is much better with 2 great WR's rather than 4 or 5 average ones.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

The stats dont back your point up though:

2003: WR Branch/Givens/Brown/Patten/Johnson
Brady Passing Yards: 3620
2004: WR Givens/Patten/Branch/Brown/Johnson
Brady Passing Yards: 3692
2007: WR Moss/Welker/Stallworth/Gaffney
Brady Passing Yards: 4806
2009: WR Moss/Welker/Aiken/Edelman
Brady Passing Yards: 4398

Brady is much better with 2 great WR's rather than 4 or 5 average ones.

How many Super Bowls have we won with 5 average joes at WR/TE? and how many have we won with 2 all stars at WR?

Case Closed...the evidence speaks for itself

 

[The Dynasty]

How many Super Bowls have we won with 5 average joes at WR/TE? and how many have we won with 2 all stars at WR?

Case Closed...the evidence speaks for itself

That is a totally different argument, your original point was about Brady having better numbers, not the Patriot team as a whole.

Look at the Patriot defenses in the Super Bowl years, they were the dominant unit. Having 5 average WR's was not the reason for winning those Super Bowls.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Bottom line in this thread is this....


Brady is a better QB when he has more weapons to throw to and none of those weapons has to be an all-pro like Moss and Welker,they just have to be able to get open in thier expected routes and catch the ball.

Brady has made average WRs like Deion Branch,David Patten and David Givens out to be more than they really are which showed when they went to other teams but with Brady as their QB, them being just average receivers is all they needed to be to get this offense to win championships.

We don't need Randy Moss type players to win championships,He haven't before and don't now,we just need a COMPLETE WR corps full of guys who want to win and can catch the ball both in tight quarters and in the open field.

While its nice to have allstars and future HOFers at one position,it is NOT neccesary to have them to win it all....not when a HOF QB is at the controls

 

[patsfan-1982]

if moss is not here to start the season and we know welker will not be there. that would leve Julian Edelman, as the #1 WR brady would have not pass for more then 3300 yerds and would not have more then 20 TD's


is dose not look like the pats are going to give any one a big contract. in this uncaped year. so at best the pats will add a 2th round pick at WR and a few more JAG's that may not make the team.


if they trade moss. and if that defense is not lights out next year. then i can't see the pats doing any better then they did in 2009.

 

[King Hippo's Bandaid]

How many Super Bowls have we won with 5 average joes at WR/TE? and how many have we won with 2 all stars at WR?

Case Closed...the evidence speaks for itself

that's true, lol!!!!!

 

[The Dynasty]

Please tell me you aren't serious when you say the offense was out of sync all year and it was the BIGGEST reason for the disappointment. Please, please, please don't tell me you believe the defense wasn't the lesser unit. There is no blueprint, as much as you want to believe there is. And throw away Moss' separated shoulder all you want, but if injuries aren't an excuse then Welker has no excuse for getting 0 receptions in the playoffs in 2009.

How can you say that the offense was not the biggest reason for disappointment? Look at the 2007 season and all the records we broke. We had all of the major contributors on the 2009 roster. Now I am not saying that the Patriots offense should have been putting up stats like in 2007, but they should have been much better in 2009. Especially in the PPG. 2007 we averaged 36.8 PPG, 2009 we averaged 26.7. A 10 point difference.

Our defense in 2009 was very inexperienced, what did you expect them to produce this season? Look at all the rookies and inexperienced players that had a major role. Were you expecting a dominant defense like during the Super Bowl years? They were 11th in total defense and 5th in PPG. I think that definitely exceeded expectations going into the season. With the talent that was on the offense compared to the defense you could have definitely gotten more out of the offense that what was offered this season.