My knock on Maroney and the offense

[E Belichick Unum]

You have again said nothing.
You ramble on about where you might hear such a thing, when it has never happened.
There are zero real, unimaginery, non-madeupbyyou cases where anyone has said Laurence Maroney refuses to follow the coaching staff's direction.
Certainly if it has 'become fairly obvious' you could cite a REAL EXAMPLE rather than listing the kinds of examples there would be if they did exist.

As far as living up to his potential, that would depend on what you consider his potential.
I have never considered him to have the potential of being the only player in the NFL immune to being injured.
I did not consider his potential in his rookie year to be more than what he accomplished as a RB sharing a starting job as a rookie
I did not consider his potential as a 2nd year player to be greater than the starting RB, and leading rusher, with some very impressive statistics on the highest scoring offense in NFL history.
And, again, I didnt consider his potential in 2008 to be an immunity from being injured.

I like Maroney, so having to dig up dirt to prove my point is agravating to the max. I am not just making it up, a reputation gets built upon as the years go by. Maroney's has taken a beating over the last couple of years. He is still the most talented back on the team, but if he doesn't do his job then the talent is just potential energy.

Greg Cosell - Sporting News

Laurence Maroney, when not injured, has been a tentative runner who does not reliably attack the line of scrimmage.

Maroney is rarely decisive hitting the hole, and he has shown a strong tendency to stop his feet in the backfield. I can't tell you how many times I've been frustrated watching him abandon a clear lane at the point of attack to bounce outside. That's college running, and it doesn't work in the NFL.

Pats' Maroney Looking For Balance
By ROY CUMMINGS, The Tampa Tribune

Maroney came out of the University of Minnesota two years ago as a first-round pick (21st overall), but with a reputation for dancing behind the line too much and for not hitting the hole hard. He didn't do much to shed that image during his first year and a half with the Patriots, which might help explain why he carried the ball less often than he hoped he would during that span.

In the last few weeks, Maroney has begun to prove that not only can he carry a heavy workload, but he also can carry the ball through a hard-hat area, if that's what the situation calls for.

"Different games deserve different things," he said. "If you're playing a really physical defense, you know you've got to run downhill. But if you're playing a defense that likes to move, you've got to set the edge, get to the outside, cut and run."

Maroney mostly did the latter at Minnesota, but he says that became the case because he was teamed in the backfield with Marion Barber, a power back now playing for the Cowboys.

The situation didn't change when he arrived in New England. Teamed at first with Corey Dillon and then with Sammy Morris, Maroney decided to stick with the shifty style of running that got him there.

All the while, the Patriots were trying to hammer home to Maroney that he needed to run harder, run meaner. Now, with Dillon retired and Morris lost to a season-ending injury, he's doing that.


From PFT

Patriots starting tailback Laurence Maroney missed practice again on Wednesday, with a shoulder injury.

Maroney has participated in each of the Pats’ victories this year; when he hasn’t played, the team has lost. But Maroney hardly has been the difference-maker when the team wins; he has rushed for a mere 93 yards on 28 tries, a 3.3-yard average.

Boston Herald
Nov 2007

INDECISIVE MARONEY: If there’s one down to the game, it was the continued tentativeness of running back Laurence Maroney, who does not appear to be blessed with the best run vision and may not be suited for the kind of stretch plays that would seemingly suit his cutback ability.


Consider Maroney’s touchdown. It came on a little delay inside where Maroney simply followed the block of pulling guard Logan Mankins and burst quickly up the middle. He didn’t have to read a hole or make a cut, which eliminated the dancing in the backfield that has plagued him.


Contrast that with some of his later runs. On his final carry, in the second quarter, the Patriots tried to run the inside handoff to him out of the shotgun that Kevin Faulk seemingly takes for seven yards a pop. Maroney, however, shuffled his feet in the backfield for the one beat where he had the element of surprise, giving the defense time to recover and drop him for no gain.


Maroney seems to have trouble reading lanes to his right – on at least two occasions he had cutback lanes to that side and hesitated, getting bottled up instead. It’s enough to make you wonder if Maroney is too indecisive to run in a zone style. When he was able to follow the lead block of Heath Evans and not have to pick a hole, a ripped off a seven-yard gain over right tackle in the first quarter.


The quickness and physical ability are there. Maroney does not fear contact. But juxtapose him against a back like Joseph Addai and something is clearly missing.




The Tale of Laurence Ma-Phoney

And so it goes. Maroney started three games this season, rushing for 93 yards on 28 carries (that’s a 3.3 yards per carry average folks) and did not have a catch out of the backfield. The lingering injury issue has kept Maroney on the sideline for much of the year and now he’s on injured reserve. Of course with the Patriots’ style for injury disclosure we do not know the full extent of the injury, but we do know what we saw from Maroney pre-injury; a running back full of talent (and confidence I might add) but not much football IQ or durability to run out, take the rock 25 times, gain you 100 yards and keep possession of the ball. He’s turned into a flash in the pan runner who makes one spectacular play every couple of weeks that keeps you on the edge of your seat when he gets the ball. However almost every time that has happened in the last two seasons you see the twist more than the ‘truck stick’, the samba more than the stiff arm, and him breaking down instead of breaking tackles. Say what you want about some of the other running backs on the board when Maroney was taken (DeAngelo Williams, Joseph Addai, LenDale White, Maurice Jones-Drew) but either way you look at it, we were sold on some phony goods and he hasn’t lived up to expectations.

Boston Metro
Christopher Price

On the other hand, Laurence Maroney continues to regress before our very eyes. What’s going on here? He finished yesterday with 10 rushes for 26 yards, and almost all of his rushing attempts involved some sort of dancing before he hit the line — even when there were no tacklers there to dance away from. When it came to hitting the hole, there was no decisiveness. However, his most egregious action came when he was faced with a choice between stepping out of bounds inches short of a first down and trying to bull over a defender. Maroney chose the former, and was quickly yanked from the contest. (In contrast, Sammy Morris ran hard yesterday, picking up 54 yards on 13 carries.) Maroney did not play two weeks ago and saw limited action yesterday, so injury could be a real possibility. But on the season, Maroney has played in three games, and has 28 carries for 93 yards and no touchdowns. Six of his 28 carries on the season have either gone for zero or negative yards, by far the highest percentage on the team. The bottom line is that these are not the sorts of numbers you would expect out of a first-round pick at this stage of his career.


Yahoo Sports

Offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels was asked about Maroney's hesitation hitting the hole.

"I think there were some situations in the game where there wasn't much there on a few plays and then there were some other plays, not just singling out Laurence, that there was more yards," said McDaniels. "There is always that in the running game. When you carry the ball 43 times, there are going to be plays where there are more yards than you gained and there are going to be other plays where maybe you didn't gain as much as you blocked it for. I didn't really notice much difference. He practiced fine [Wednesday]. The backs are all running the ball well and we expect that to go forward."

 

[Ring 6]

While there are 16 games in a season, you only play against 13 of the 32 teams. You also have more of an impact on the 3 teams that you play twice and it can help to raise or lower their defenses.

So, no, they don't play half the teams. Also, I did not say they played half the top 10 defenses. I said they played 5 games against "top 10 run defenses" There is a difference. One that I am surprised you have tripped up on.

I'm sorry, Andy, but you've mis-read two things said by me and, from where I sit, it makes your supposed point invalid.

You've also chosen to poorly attempt to spin what you said to try and cover up the fact that you mis-read what I stated.

I dont think the fact that i left out "RUN" after top 10 defenses really changes anything.

Lets try this. HOw about you list the run defense rankings of all of the teams we faced, add them up and divide by 16 and see where it comes out.
My argument is that you are exaggerating the point.
It is NORMAL to face 3 defenses ranked 27 or lower. How is that part of the argument that the competition was weak? IT is normal to face 5 of the top 10. Yet you are saying that is inferrior competition.
It would be NORMAL to face run defenses ranked 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32 (or 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31)
THAT is the starting point. To belittle the success of the running game BASED SOLELY ON they faced the 27th and 30th ranked run Ds and only 5 of the top 10, is just not a reasonable comment. Its like saying the 2007 Patriots 16-0 regular season shouldn't be considered 16-0 because the teams in their division were all under .500.

 

[Ring 6]

I like Maroney, so having to dig up dirt to prove my point is agravating to the max. I am not just making it up, a reputation gets built upon as the years go by. Maroney's has taken a beating over the last couple of years. He is still the most talented back on the team, but if he doesn't do his job then the talent is just potential energy.

Greg Cosell - Sporting News

Laurence Maroney, when not injured, has been a tentative runner who does not reliably attack the line of scrimmage.

Maroney is rarely decisive hitting the hole, and he has shown a strong tendency to stop his feet in the backfield. I can't tell you how many times I've been frustrated watching him abandon a clear lane at the point of attack to bounce outside. That's college running, and it doesn't work in the NFL.

Pats' Maroney Looking For Balance
By ROY CUMMINGS, The Tampa Tribune

Maroney came out of the University of Minnesota two years ago as a first-round pick (21st overall), but with a reputation for dancing behind the line too much and for not hitting the hole hard. He didn't do much to shed that image during his first year and a half with the Patriots, which might help explain why he carried the ball less often than he hoped he would during that span.

In the last few weeks, Maroney has begun to prove that not only can he carry a heavy workload, but he also can carry the ball through a hard-hat area, if that's what the situation calls for.

"Different games deserve different things," he said. "If you're playing a really physical defense, you know you've got to run downhill. But if you're playing a defense that likes to move, you've got to set the edge, get to the outside, cut and run."

Maroney mostly did the latter at Minnesota, but he says that became the case because he was teamed in the backfield with Marion Barber, a power back now playing for the Cowboys.

The situation didn't change when he arrived in New England. Teamed at first with Corey Dillon and then with Sammy Morris, Maroney decided to stick with the shifty style of running that got him there.

All the while, the Patriots were trying to hammer home to Maroney that he needed to run harder, run meaner. Now, with Dillon retired and Morris lost to a season-ending injury, he's doing that.


From PFT

Patriots starting tailback Laurence Maroney missed practice again on Wednesday, with a shoulder injury.

Maroney has participated in each of the Pats’ victories this year; when he hasn’t played, the team has lost. But Maroney hardly has been the difference-maker when the team wins; he has rushed for a mere 93 yards on 28 tries, a 3.3-yard average.

Boston Herald
Nov 2007

INDECISIVE MARONEY: If there’s one down to the game, it was the continued tentativeness of running back Laurence Maroney, who does not appear to be blessed with the best run vision and may not be suited for the kind of stretch plays that would seemingly suit his cutback ability.


Consider Maroney’s touchdown. It came on a little delay inside where Maroney simply followed the block of pulling guard Logan Mankins and burst quickly up the middle. He didn’t have to read a hole or make a cut, which eliminated the dancing in the backfield that has plagued him.


Contrast that with some of his later runs. On his final carry, in the second quarter, the Patriots tried to run the inside handoff to him out of the shotgun that Kevin Faulk seemingly takes for seven yards a pop. Maroney, however, shuffled his feet in the backfield for the one beat where he had the element of surprise, giving the defense time to recover and drop him for no gain.


Maroney seems to have trouble reading lanes to his right – on at least two occasions he had cutback lanes to that side and hesitated, getting bottled up instead. It’s enough to make you wonder if Maroney is too indecisive to run in a zone style. When he was able to follow the lead block of Heath Evans and not have to pick a hole, a ripped off a seven-yard gain over right tackle in the first quarter.


The quickness and physical ability are there. Maroney does not fear contact. But juxtapose him against a back like Joseph Addai and something is clearly missing.




The Tale of Laurence Ma-Phoney

And so it goes. Maroney started three games this season, rushing for 93 yards on 28 carries (that’s a 3.3 yards per carry average folks) and did not have a catch out of the backfield. The lingering injury issue has kept Maroney on the sideline for much of the year and now he’s on injured reserve. Of course with the Patriots’ style for injury disclosure we do not know the full extent of the injury, but we do know what we saw from Maroney pre-injury; a running back full of talent (and confidence I might add) but not much football IQ or durability to run out, take the rock 25 times, gain you 100 yards and keep possession of the ball. He’s turned into a flash in the pan runner who makes one spectacular play every couple of weeks that keeps you on the edge of your seat when he gets the ball. However almost every time that has happened in the last two seasons you see the twist more than the ‘truck stick’, the samba more than the stiff arm, and him breaking down instead of breaking tackles. Say what you want about some of the other running backs on the board when Maroney was taken (DeAngelo Williams, Joseph Addai, LenDale White, Maurice Jones-Drew) but either way you look at it, we were sold on some phony goods and he hasn’t lived up to expectations.

Boston Metro
Christopher Price

On the other hand, Laurence Maroney continues to regress before our very eyes. What’s going on here? He finished yesterday with 10 rushes for 26 yards, and almost all of his rushing attempts involved some sort of dancing before he hit the line — even when there were no tacklers there to dance away from. When it came to hitting the hole, there was no decisiveness. However, his most egregious action came when he was faced with a choice between stepping out of bounds inches short of a first down and trying to bull over a defender. Maroney chose the former, and was quickly yanked from the contest. (In contrast, Sammy Morris ran hard yesterday, picking up 54 yards on 13 carries.) Maroney did not play two weeks ago and saw limited action yesterday, so injury could be a real possibility. But on the season, Maroney has played in three games, and has 28 carries for 93 yards and no touchdowns. Six of his 28 carries on the season have either gone for zero or negative yards, by far the highest percentage on the team. The bottom line is that these are not the sorts of numbers you would expect out of a first-round pick at this stage of his career.


Yahoo Sports

Offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels was asked about Maroney's hesitation hitting the hole.

"I think there were some situations in the game where there wasn't much there on a few plays and then there were some other plays, not just singling out Laurence, that there was more yards," said McDaniels. "There is always that in the running game. When you carry the ball 43 times, there are going to be plays where there are more yards than you gained and there are going to be other plays where maybe you didn't gain as much as you blocked it for. I didn't really notice much difference. He practiced fine [Wednesday]. The backs are all running the ball well and we expect that to go forward."

Wow, this is frustrating. You said that Maroney refuses to follow the direction of the coaching staff.
The real fact is that many people on this board don't like his running style, and that opinion has taken on a life of its own, leading you to say that Maroney doesn't do what he is coached to do.
I ask you to show me any evidence that the coaching staff says he doesnt follow direction, and you pull out opinion articles by 'analysts' who don't like his running style.

Are you not paying attention or ignoring the real discussion on purpose?

 

[Ring 6]

And coaches discuss opinions with the media all the time including the Patriots. Much of it is off the record, but it does happen. There is even less of a reason for the Patriots coaching staff to give out opinions of who they are interested in drafting a week before the draft and I gave you two examples of the Pats sharing that information to the media through sources.

People forget that Michael Holley had full access to meetings, coaches, strategy sessions, etc. when he wrote Patriot Reign and many player evalutions made it to the book. Some with direct quotes from Belichick.

Belichick never talks on the record about players unless it is praising or just boilerplate stuff. But the Patriots have used the media in the past to get their message out there through sources and many times you have people on the staff who like to talk. Look at Matt Walsh. He loved to open his mouth even when he was with the Patriots. You don't think there are other guys in the organization who like to talk too.

What if NEInsider from the ESPN board is legit. That is an example of someone in the Pats organization bypassing the media all together and spilling the beans if true. For the record, I have serious doubts though.

WHAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
This is your argument.
Remember you are trying to prove that the coaching staff has shared its opinion of Maroney with the media.
1) You are sure coaches talk to writers, but its off the record, so no one would know about it. (How would you be sure it happens then)
2) Your proof is that a couple of writers guessed right about draft picks, that by the way were need picks. Those examples are not even close to proof that any inside info came from the organization.
3) BB let Michael Holley have access to write a book. I'm pretty sure there was a condition that he couldn't use anything before the book was published. He also quit his newspaper job to get the access.
4) I have no clue what Matt Walsh has to do with proving that Patriots coaches tell the media what their opinion of players is.
5) Finally you cap your argument with the 'proof' that if someone who claims to have inside info that you do not believe is accurate, actually works for the team, the BAM that means there are leaks. You should have just siad that you work for the team so you are the leak.

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

Here's "THEARCHIVES" analysis of Maroney. Obviously, Maroney has a ton of talent and has shown flashes of what he can do. For example, for the people that say he can't run hard, take a look at the last several weeks of the '07 season. Also, take a look at what he did throughout the playoffs. In fact, he was the reason the Pats closed out the game against the Chargers in the AFCCG (which many people are failing to acknowledge). However, the main problem with most people is that he gets injured too much. Sure, it's frustrating, but sometimes it's hard for a any RB too stay healthy when your constantly getting pounded by 300+ pound lineman and 240+ pound LB's on a weekly basis. This is why more and more teams are using the RB tandem to reduce the the chance of injuries.

With that said, here is my gripe with Maroney. First, I disagree with DaBruinz that he has good vision. In fact, I think he has pretty poor vision. For example, there are too many times when Maroney gets the football and takes it right into a pile of his own lineman and defenders. It's very frustrating to see on replays that sometimes there are gaping holes (inside or outside) that he could have gone through and picked up extra yardage. I don't see what people are taking about when they say Maroney is "dancing", I just see him try to use his speed to bust through holes when they're not there.

In the end, As much as the Pats coaching staff wants him to be the starter, they will make him earn it this time. Sure, he might have the most talent as any RB on the roster, but he isn't the best. I agree with Reiss that Maroney doesn't have any trade value and would be a head scratching move considering how cheap he is and his potential upside. Even though Maroney has shown flashes of what he can do, he's still one season away from being a complete bust.

On the flip side, I'm probably in the minority when I say this but I think Fred Taylor is going to be the starter and pull a Corey Dillon in '04. In fact, Taylor will make his first pro bowl of his career. Fred Taylor has just enough in the tank to be an effective starter for a team that has threats at every position. When Taylor was in Jacksonville, he was the main threat on offense along with Jones-Drew. Now, teams won't be able to key in on him which will allow a lot of running room. Unlike Maroney, Taylor has great vision, runs with aggression and has the speed to break the big one. I love the signing of Fred Taylor.

 

[Deus Irae]

consicuously absent from this discussion is deangelo williams who was the next rb taken after maroney....the funny thing is that williams is the guy who was advertised as the one with the most wear and tear on him coming out of college......he's missed 3 games in 3 years

Ummmm.... since he's been here, most of the comparisons have been to Addai, with the little bowling bowl coming in second. I didn't compare him to the other running backs drafted that year either. There has to be a cutoff somewhere.

one could also argue that maroney's play has declined since day 1.......

Sure one could. One could argue that infants make better offensive linemen than grown men weighing 300+ pounds, too. Of course, one would be wrong in both instances.

but what is likely more acurate is that he has thus far failed to become more than a ball carrier.........with his size and speed, I would be pretty sure that the pats have tried to scheme him into some RB screens and quick outs, but he has failed to pick up that part of the game.......at the rookie pay level, it is worth holding onto him until for as long as it takes, but the success rate of RB being something more after being something less the first 3 years is very low........guess there is always a first, and I hope so, but I don't feel that optimistic about maroney's future

Actually, it's pretty clear that he's an effective weapon catching the ball. He had 22 catches as a rookie and averaged 8.8 ypr. That's a higher number than anything Faulk's done since Maroney arrived on the scene. The Patriots have elected not to use him that way since that rookie year, however, for reasons of their own (4 catches for 29 ypr in year 2, none in the abbreviated year 3). It may be Maroney's pass blocking, it may be that they would rather not pass to the RBs in the first two downs very much (Lamont Jordan didn't catch a pass all season and Morris only had 17), it may be that Maroney tried to date the wrong man's daughter. Whatever the reason, the Patriots have chosen not to use an effective weapon in the arsenal.

 

[Ring 6]

Unless of course the Patriots decide doing what's best for Maroney is what's best for the Patriots. You cannot fit a square peg in a round hole (without seriously damaging it, at least...). Bill knew who and what Maroney was when he drafted him. I'd seldom seen him quite that excited over a draft pick. He was looking for a home run hitter to open up this offense. He's acknowledged the plan was to change the blocking scheme. Just never really panned out. But that's not really on Laurence...who got banged up pretty good out of the gate being a team player and running behind Pokey's blocking scheme in 2006...while Brady sought out the immortal tandem of Reche Caldwell and Doug Gabriel...

They say battles are won and lost in the trenches. On this team where pass blocking for a HOF QB is job 1 there is little margin in those trenches, and that's before Neal goes down annually. He's going to be 33 this fall and he misses 4 games a year on average (not counting missing his first two years entirely). Kaczur has had his moments and his struggles, the latter particularly when Neal is out. In just his 5th season since being drafted at the end of the 3rd round he will turn 30 as camp opens...

Sometimes I wish we could get by with skill players who didn't have to be taught to substitute as blocking dummies. But to do that we need to draft (because it's cost effective) OL talent with a higher ceiling. And we might want to do that before we get anyone else killed in what is often a snowball effect that emanates from the right side of that OL...

To give an example of what I mean:
Assume that running sweeps ultimately produces more yardage than running inside. However, it is more hit and miss. Many negative plays and some long runs.
If that were 'better for Maroney' but BB felt consistency was more important than the end result we would run inside.
It is entirely reasonable that Maroney is the best RB we have for what we want him to do, but he does other things very well that we wouldnt ask him to do often.
A good example of this could be Vince Wilfork. He has developed into a very good 2gap NT, but may have been better suited when he came in to the league as a one gap 3 technique 43 DT, ala Warren Sapp. Wilfork could actually be a better player than this system allows him to be, but there is no question what will happen.

 

[DaBruinz]

I dont think the fact that i left out "RUN" after top 10 defenses really changes anything.

Lets try this. HOw about you list the run defense rankings of all of the teams we faced, add them up and divide by 16 and see where it comes out.
My argument is that you are exaggerating the point.
It is NORMAL to face 3 defenses ranked 27 or lower. How is that part of the argument that the competition was weak? IT is normal to face 5 of the top 10. Yet you are saying that is inferrior competition.
It would be NORMAL to face run defenses ranked 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32 (or 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23,25,27,29,31)
THAT is the starting point. To belittle the success of the running game BASED SOLELY ON they faced the 27th and 30th ranked run Ds and only 5 of the top 10, is just not a reasonable comment. Its like saying the 2007 Patriots 16-0 regular season shouldn't be considered 16-0 because the teams in their division were all under .500.

Andy - Just stop. There is a huge difference between overall defense and run defense and how they are ranked.

I didn't belittle anything. If that is your interpretation, its you who is erroneous. I put the success of the running game in the light of reality. If you don't like it, oh well. Its your issue, not mine.

And please stop trying to "interpret" what I said. Your assumptions and conclusions are so erroneous that it makes a 3 dollar bill to be legal tender here in the US.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Wow, this is frustrating. You said that Maroney refuses to follow the direction of the coaching staff.
The real fact is that many people on this board don't like his running style, and that opinion has taken on a life of its own, leading you to say that Maroney doesn't do what he is coached to do.
I ask you to show me any evidence that the coaching staff says he doesnt follow direction, and you pull out opinion articles by 'analysts' who don't like his running style.

Are you not paying attention or ignoring the real discussion on purpose?

The problem with an argument like this is unless the coach is **** Vermiel you will never hear about coaches being upset about a rb's decision making process. Let me put it this way, I know for a fact that Maroney has pissed off the coaching staff by not hitting the right hole. I will not tell you who I know, or how I know, but I do know. I can also tell you that he is liked by his team mates and the coaching staff, which makes it even more frustrating. The discussion is about Maroney's running style, it has shifted to man love versus the rest of the board. What is the purpose of coming to a board like this if we can't discuss the team without having somebody's feelings get hurt?

He runs, he dances, he misses the holes. Every RB does that, he just does it more than the quality backs do in the league. He is absolutely the most talented runner on the team. When he wants to, or is able to, run hard he is close to a top 5 guy, but unfortunately he has issues that cannot be explained by injury alone. I believe his issues are the result of trying to do too much. I believe that he doesn't want to hit the hole for 4 yards because he believes that there will be another one he can gain 15 yard on further down the line. The problem is that in the NFL, those secondary holes rarely show up. This isn't a case of damning with faint praise, this is praising with a little critisism attached.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy - Just stop. There is a huge difference between overall defense and run defense and how they are ranked.

I didn't belittle anything. If that is your interpretation, its you who is erroneous. I put the success of the running game in the light of reality. If you don't like it, oh well. Its your issue, not mine.

And please stop trying to "interpret" what I said. Your assumptions and conclusions are so erroneous that it makes a 3 dollar bill to be legal tender here in the US.

You wonder why everyone fights with you??????????????????
Geez.
You said the competition was poor.
I said the examples you gave do not establish that this is correct, and in fact support that the competition is AVERAGE.
I could care less whether you use run defense, total defense or defense on the third tuesday after a full moon. If you are going to argue the competition was weak thereby skewing the stats, then you have to show what the competition was.
"5 of top 10 and 27 and 30" is not sufficient facts to prove your point.

You may be right, you may be wrong.
I am not interpreting, assuming or concluding anything. I am saying you made a judgment that you did not support with facts. Why would it be more difficult to post that facts than to try to insult ME, who is one of the few people that supports you on this board????????

 

[DaBruinz]

How will that be affected if there is no CAP? Explain the first rounder. I do not understand that.

I was making a point on Brinkley, but IMO there are Picks out there in the second or third round that have a better R.O.I. at this present point in his career. Unless you can see the future, you have no idea what the R.O.I will be on those 2nd round picks you mentioned.

We can agree to disagree on where on the depth chart Maroney winds up. I like the kid but he has not fulfilled his first round value, is that a fair statement?
DW Toys

DW - The current CBA runs through 2010. However, 2010 is an uncapped year. By rule, in uncapped years, players with less than 6 years of playing time whose contract has expired (read: players who weren't cut), are considered to be Restricted Free agents. The current rules for restricted free agents state that a tender of 110% of the player's previous salary or an offer of 2.2 million (my guess at the 2010 number) will give the Patriots right of first refusal or compensation of a 1st round draft pick. Considering that Taylor, Morris and Faulk won't be with the team at that point (more than likely) I can easily see the Patriots keeping Maroney for 2.2 million or a first rounder.

 

[Rob0729]

I guess you should go on because you havent shown what I asked.
You are now telling me that people predicting who the Patriots will draft is proof that the coaching staff shares inside priveldged information with the media? How about all of the predictions that were wrong?
I will take them one by one.
1) Felger made a correct guess. How many of BBs draft picks has he correctly predicted? A blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.
2) First that is an unsubstantiated claim. Secondly, it may have come from the player as well.
3) Again unsubstantiated. Even if true, there are many other ways to draw that conclusion that getting a report from the coaching staff (the most obvious of which would be to actually watch practice and listen to the coaching he is given)
4) Again, the 3% of media predictions about who the Pats will draft wouldn't qualify as proof that the organization told the media what their plan was. By the way, why would they?
5) So reporters asked about Brady and BB said 'he is ahead of schedule'? What is your point? You sound like you are trying to disprove that BB is a mute.

I think we need to recognize what the topic we are discussing is.
The topic is whether the coaching staff has told the media what their opinion and assessment of Laurence Maroney is and that it is negative despite the fact that in every press conference BB has never said anything negative, and even further that Maroney has failed to following the direction given him by the coaching staff.

I don't think that showing members of the media guessed right on a few draft picks gets you in the same area code.

1.) Felger made a correct guess because he was told by someone in the Pats' organization. He said as much. Easy to guess who the Pats are going to pick when they tell you as much.
2.) Well, I should just stop right here because this is a BS excuse you can use on any leak from the Pats. The Pats don't say anything negative on the record for players. They say a lot more negative things off the record and this is the case. Do you really think all the media people make things up because they don't get access?
3.) Another BS excuse
4.) Yes, because Michael Holley has no access to the Patriots personnel. Belichick specifically has a no one speak to Michael Holley rule ever since Holley made up the fictious Patriots Reign concocting his supposive exclusive access to the Patriots.
5.) Smith had more than he was a head of schedule. He had great details including his workout regiment. Michael Holley even vouched for his source claiming it was well placed in the Pats' organization.

My point is that the Pats let far more out than people think. Belichick probably leaks things on purpose at times to get his point or information out there without making it sound like he leaked it.

Just because Belichick doesn't say something at his podium in front of the press does mean he didn't say it and don't think that nothing gets out to the press. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if Belichick allows his staff to leak a certain amount to the press just so they don't just try to keep digging and digging.

As for the Maroney thing, I don't know if it is true or not. But if a reporter in this town claims he/she heard that from their sources inside the Patriots organization, I bet it is true. Just like I believe the Gabriel and Jackson thing (and I was one of the biggest Jackson defenders on this board).

I don't know why you get so defensive that people in the Patriots organization leak information as unnamed sources from time to time. It isn't really that scandalous and is 100% true.

 

[Ring 6]

The problem with an argument like this is unless the coach is **** Vermiel you will never hear about coaches being upset about a rb's decision making process. Let me put it this way, I know for a fact that Maroney has pissed off the coaching staff by not hitting the right hole. I will not tell you who I know, or how I know, but I do know. I can also tell you that he is liked by his team mates and the coaching staff, which makes it even more frustrating. The discussion is about Maroney's running style, it has shifted to man love versus the rest of the board. What is the purpose of coming to a board like this if we can't discuss the team without having somebody's feelings get hurt?

He runs, he dances, he misses the holes. Every RB does that, he just does it more than the quality backs do in the league. He is absolutely the most talented runner on the team. When he wants to, or is able to, run hard he is close to a top 5 guy, but unfortunately he has issues that cannot be explained by injury alone. I believe his issues are the result of trying to do too much. I believe that he doesn't want to hit the hole for 4 yards because he believes that there will be another one he can gain 15 yard on further down the line. The problem is that in the NFL, those secondary holes rarely show up. This isn't a case of damning with faint praise, this is praising with a little critisism attached.

OK, so now that you cannot prove your point, you conveniently become the insider, and even more conveniently refuse to disclose where your inside info comes from.
Nice.
OK my turn.
I have an inside source who said that the only reason the Patriots signed Fred Taylor is that they are so impressed and excited about Maroney that they decided to sign the free agent with the most yards gained in his career, so Maroney could see how much better he is.
My source tells me that BB asked Maroney to watch over his son while BB was out of town, because he loves and trusts Maroney so much. BB was actually considering making Maroney player/coach so he could be offensive coordinator also.
I can't tell you how I know all of these things, but BELIEVE ME I DO.

By the way, if you really had an inside source, your comments would be cogent and make sense.
You said
-The coaches are pissed at him
-The coaches like him
-WHEN HE WANTS TO he can be a top 5 back
-His problem is he tries to hard

Your inside source cant even figure out if he is liked or not or if the problem is he is too lazy or tries to hard.
Next time you create a source, try to find one who doesn't have opinions that conflict WITH HIS OWN OPINIONS.

 

[Ring 6]

1.) Felger made a correct guess because he was told by someone in the Pats' organization. He said as much. Easy to guess who the Pats are going to pick when they tell you as much.
2.) Well, I should just stop right here because this is a BS excuse you can use on any leak from the Pats. The Pats don't say anything negative on the record for players. They say a lot more negative things off the record and this is the case. Do you really think all the media people make things up because they don't get access?
3.) Another BS excuse
4.) Yes, because Michael Holley has no access to the Patriots personnel. Belichick specifically has a no one speak to Michael Holley rule ever since Holley made up the fictious Patriots Reign concocting his supposive exclusive access to the Patriots.
5.) Smith had more than he was a head of schedule. He had great details including his workout regiment. Michael Holley even vouched for his source claiming it was well placed in the Pats' organization.

My point is that the Pats let far more out than people think. Belichick probably leaks things on purpose at times to get his point or information out there without making it sound like he leaked it.

Just because Belichick doesn't say something at his podium in front of the press does mean he didn't say it and don't think that nothing gets out to the press. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if Belichick allows his staff to leak a certain amount to the press just so they don't just try to keep digging and digging.

As for the Maroney thing, I don't know if it is true or not. But if a reporter in this town claims he/she heard that from their sources inside the Patriots organization, I bet it is true. Just like I believe the Gabriel and Jackson thing (and I was one of the biggest Jackson defenders on this board).

I don't know why you get so defensive that people in the Patriots organization leak information as unnamed sources from time to time. It isn't really that scandalous and is 100% true.

You again are ignorant to the point.
I have no doubt that IF IT SERVES HIS PURPOSE BB will leak information to the press. He will leak false info too, no doubt.
But what we are talking about here is whether the COACHING STAFF OF THE PATRIOTS decided to give an assessment of Laurence Maroney, a critical, negative one to the media.
One of 2 things must be present for that to happen
1) There is something to gain, ie BB feels it helps him to have the media say he thinks Maroney sucks while he is in a press conference saying positive things or
2) A coach doesnt care about #1 and just wants to shoot his mouth off.

CLearly neither are true. There is no incentive to doing this. BB and his staff coach the players. They don't coach through the media, they speak directly not by implication through a writer.
What you are implying is that BB thinks the best way to coach Laurence Maroney is to get a writer to write bad things about him rather than coach him the way he has coached players for 30+ years.
Again you are welcome to show me all of the other examples of this tactic. But please stop with the draft predictions.

 

[Rob0729]

WHAT????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
This is your argument.
Remember you are trying to prove that the coaching staff has shared its opinion of Maroney with the media.
1) You are sure coaches talk to writers, but its off the record, so no one would know about it. (How would you be sure it happens then)
2) Your proof is that a couple of writers guessed right about draft picks, that by the way were need picks. Those examples are not even close to proof that any inside info came from the organization.
3) BB let Michael Holley have access to write a book. I'm pretty sure there was a condition that he couldn't use anything before the book was published. He also quit his newspaper job to get the access.
4) I have no clue what Matt Walsh has to do with proving that Patriots coaches tell the media what their opinion of players is.
5) Finally you cap your argument with the 'proof' that if someone who claims to have inside info that you do not believe is accurate, actually works for the team, the BAM that means there are leaks. You should have just siad that you work for the team so you are the leak.

1.) When I say off the record, I mean without their name attached to it.
2.) No you falsely spun my proof into guesses. I you want to spin everything you might want to try the political forum. Felger specifically said about Warren that the Pats loved the guy and were planning to take him with one of their first two picks. The only guessing he did was to whether to reveal his source. He didn't but he definitely said it was inside information from the Patriots. If you choose to ignore that fact, so be it.
3.) So did Holley have to give up his contacts after he was done writing his book. Holley is still well connected in the organization. Funny how the second a guy like Holley leaks a rumor that everyone wants to hear like Brady is on track to start the season, the first response is "Well Holley should know because he is so well connected". Now you say that he gets no inside information? Really?!?
4.) Matt Walsh would talk to anyone who listened about inside Patriots stuff even long before Spygate. You don't think there are other guys in the Pats organization who will do the same thing to a certain point.
5.) Every team has leaks of information. This is the New England Patriots, not Langley or Area 51. People within the organization have relationships with media people and sometimes they talk. Information leaks out. Most of the time it is harmless. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes reporters take advantage of their friendships with the media. I am not saying there is a Deep Throat on the Patriots, but information does get out there from inside sources although not always the most accurate.

Heck, it just bit Tom Curran on the arse really bad three months ago. Curran got a story on Brady from a very connected source inside the Patriots organization (the source was confirmed by several people in the media although not named). It was bad information, but it was a clear leak to the press. Or are you going to dismiss Curran's report as unconfirmed source too?

 

[DaBruinz]

You wonder why everyone fights with you??????????????????

People "fight" with me because they insist on misquoting me, making things up (which you didn't do) or trying to read into more than what was said. And I call them on it.

Geez.
You said the competition was poor.
I said the examples you gave do not establish that this is correct, and in fact support that the competition is AVERAGE.

Lets see, racking up nearly 43% of your total rushing yardage for the year in 5 games is proof that the competition is average? You've yet to explain that one.. Or to answer whether or not I should be impressed by that accomplishment.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-pats-ready-deal-laurence-maroney-page15.html

I could care less whether you use run defense, total defense or defense on the third tuesday after a full moon. If you are going to argue the competition was weak thereby skewing the stats, then you have to show what the competition was.
"5 of top 10 and 27 and 30" is not sufficient facts to prove your point.

I did show that the competition was poor by providing the stats. The proof is that the Patriots racked up 43% of their yardage in the 5 games against the low level competition. Its pretty self-explanatory.

You may be right, you may be wrong.
I am not interpreting, assuming or concluding anything. I am saying you made a judgment that you did not support with facts. Why would it be more difficult to post that facts than to try to insult ME, who is one of the few people that supports you on this board????????

How can you not be concluding anything when you say that my judgement wasn't supported by facts? That is a conclusion on your part.

What is funny is that I provided facts. Nothing was made up. Those facts support the idea that against low level competition the Pats did pad their stats. Which is as it should be. But they didn't just pad their running stats, they padded them by a wide margin. Which doesn't make what they did any great feat.

I am not the one who needs to be providing more facts I did, Andy. That is you, who are attempting to rebutt my statement. Unfortunately, you didn't do that. You gave hyperbole and made an attempt to use the law of averages (from the extreme macro level) to say what I was showing was normal. You didn't do that.

Did you stop to think that maybe I felt insulted by what you said, Andy? Clearly you didn't. You misquoted me on several occasions in an attempt to highlight what you were saying and then claimed that it didn't change anything when it was pointed out that you misquoted me. That is what most people call spin.

 

[Rob0729]

You again are ignorant to the point.
I have no doubt that IF IT SERVES HIS PURPOSE BB will leak information to the press. He will leak false info too, no doubt.
But what we are talking about here is whether the COACHING STAFF OF THE PATRIOTS decided to give an assessment of Laurence Maroney, a critical, negative one to the media.
One of 2 things must be present for that to happen
1) There is something to gain, ie BB feels it helps him to have the media say he thinks Maroney sucks while he is in a press conference saying positive things or
2) A coach doesnt care about #1 and just wants to shoot his mouth off.

CLearly neither are true. There is no incentive to doing this. BB and his staff coach the players. They don't coach through the media, they speak directly not by implication through a writer.
What you are implying is that BB thinks the best way to coach Laurence Maroney is to get a writer to write bad things about him rather than coach him the way he has coached players for 30+ years.
Again you are welcome to show me all of the other examples of this tactic. But please stop with the draft predictions.

Get real. There are several hundred people working for the Patriots. Belichick cannot control what everyone says to the media. This is not some spy movie. To think Belichick controls everything that comes out of the Patriots organization is ridiculous and unrealistic.

BTW, how did the source who told Curran that the Brady's 2009 season was in jeapordy and that Cassel probably won't be moved until closer to training camp help Belichick's agenda? We know now that Belichick's objective was to move Cassel as fast as possible. How would saying that Cassel won't even be on the trading block until June help that cause? Why would Curran put his reputation on the line for something he made up or heard rumors especially after what happened to John Tomase? His reputation took a hit because he trusted a guy who everyone who knows who he is supposed to be well connected and knows exactly what is going on anyway.

Sorry, but if you want to continue to believe that Belichick is a character out of a James Bond movie, go ahead. The fact of the matter is that there are too many people to control and many don't realize that an off the cuff remark about a player could turn into something more. I am sure Belichick has more control of information than most coaches, but no one can control a complete organization from leaking things from time to time.

 

[Ring 6]

People "fight" with me because they insist on misquoting me, making things up (which you didn't do) or trying to read into more than what was said. And I call them on it.



Lets see, racking up nearly 43% of your total rushing yardage for the year in 5 games is proof that the competition is average? You've yet to explain that one.. Or to answer whether or not I should be impressed by that accomplishment.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-pats-ready-deal-laurence-maroney-page15.html



I did show that the competition was poor by providing the stats. The proof is that the Patriots racked up 43% of their yardage in the 5 games against the low level competition. Its pretty self-explanatory.



How can you not be concluding anything when you say that my judgement wasn't supported by facts? That is a conclusion on your part.

What is funny is that I provided facts. Nothing was made up. Those facts support the idea that against low level competition the Pats did pad their stats. Which is as it should be. But they didn't just pad their running stats, they padded them by a wide margin. Which doesn't make what they did any great feat.

I am not the one who needs to be providing more facts I did, Andy. That is you, who are attempting to rebutt my statement. Unfortunately, you didn't do that. You gave hyperbole and made an attempt to use the law of averages (from the extreme macro level) to say what I was showing was normal. You didn't do that.

Did you stop to think that maybe I felt insulted by what you said, Andy? Clearly you didn't. You misquoted me on several occasions in an attempt to highlight what you were saying and then claimed that it didn't change anything when it was pointed out that you misquoted me. That is what most people call spin.

I did not misquote you on anything. At worst I was unclear when I said ranked instead of ranked vs the run. Hardly spin.
All I said was that I disagree that you have shown convincingly that the numbers are tainted by competition.
Let me explain.

If you said 'half their games were against teams in the bottom 16' then clearly thats not a convincing argument.
What you did show was that 5 were against top 10 teams, and 2 were against 27th and 30th ranked. What I am saying is that alone doesnt show the quality of opponents was poor.
You also have said that 43% of the yards were in 5 games. OK thats 31% of the games.
I am not at all shocked that 43% of the yards came in 31% of the games, I find that pretty normal actually. If those were the 5 highest rushing games of the season, I don't know what else we could expect. IF those were the worst 5 opponents, I'd find it normal.

Is your expectation that other teams get the same amount of yardage against each opponent? EVERY TEAM 'pads' their stats against the worse statistical teams, that is how they become the worst statistical teams.

I am perfectly willing to accept a good argument that our running stats are inflated due to competition if there is proof. But I dont consider you to have proven this.
When you say only 5 of top 10 and 27 and 30, and I say that is not abnormal, your continuing to call that proof does not make it proof.

All I am doing is asking you to convince me that your conclusion is accurate. Citing less than half of the facts (7 rankings out of 16 and saying 43% of yards in 31% of games is abnormal without any facts whether every team is similar) then trying to hurl insults to make it seem like a better case than it is, does not impress me.

 

[Ring 6]

Get real. There are several hundred people working for the Patriots. Belichick cannot control what everyone says to the media. This is not some spy movie. To think Belichick controls everything that comes out of the Patriots organization is ridiculous and unrealistic.

BTW, how did the source who told Curran that the Brady's 2009 season was in jeapordy and that Cassel probably won't be moved until closer to training camp help Belichick's agenda? We know now that Belichick's objective was to move Cassel as fast as possible. How would saying that Cassel won't even be on the trading block until June help that cause? Why would Curran put his reputation on the line for something he made up or heard rumors especially after what happened to John Tomase? His reputation took a hit because he trusted a guy who everyone who knows who he is supposed to be well connected and knows exactly what is going on anyway.

Sorry, but if you want to continue to believe that Belichick is a character out of a James Bond movie, go ahead. The fact of the matter is that there are too many people to control and many don't realize that an off the cuff remark about a player could turn into something more. I am sure Belichick has more control of information than most coaches, but no one can control a complete organization from leaking things from time to time.

Read much?
What does ANYTHING you are posting have to do with what I am talking about?
I am talking about THE COACHING STAFF CRITIQUING PLAYERS TO THE MEDIA. THE COACHING STAFF SAYING NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT PLAYERS TO REPORTERS. You are talking about things that have to do with the media and nothing to do with what I am talking about.
I could care less whether Curran made up a story, whether he got the information from Brady himself, BB, BBs secretary, the trainer, his dog, or Billy Sullivans ghost. It has absolutely, completely nothing to do with what I am talking about. PLEASE STOP MY HEADACHE BY STICKING TO THE POINT. I certainly won't base my opinion on what you think Curran should be smart enough to know better than.

The point here is that BB runs the show, and BBs PHILOSOPHY dictates the way the employees who work for him act. It is a PHILOSOPHY to criticize players directly, or to do so in the media. Bill Parcells likes to motivate by making critical comments in press conferences. Other coaches, I'm sure plant stories. Everything I have seen is that BBs style is to handle issues directly with players and go out of his way to avoid making them public. Somehow you think that adds up to a conspiracy theory, but I would suggest your arduous efforts to stretch to anything media related to prove a point that isnt there is the conspiratorial effort.

 

[Ring 6]

People "fight" with me because they insist on misquoting me, making things up (which you didn't do) or trying to read into more than what was said. And I call them on it.



Lets see, racking up nearly 43% of your total rushing yardage for the year in 5 games is proof that the competition is average? You've yet to explain that one.. Or to answer whether or not I should be impressed by that accomplishment.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-pats-ready-deal-laurence-maroney-page15.html



I did show that the competition was poor by providing the stats. The proof is that the Patriots racked up 43% of their yardage in the 5 games against the low level competition. Its pretty self-explanatory.



How can you not be concluding anything when you say that my judgement wasn't supported by facts? That is a conclusion on your part.

What is funny is that I provided facts. Nothing was made up. Those facts support the idea that against low level competition the Pats did pad their stats. Which is as it should be. But they didn't just pad their running stats, they padded them by a wide margin. Which doesn't make what they did any great feat.

I am not the one who needs to be providing more facts I did, Andy. That is you, who are attempting to rebutt my statement. Unfortunately, you didn't do that. You gave hyperbole and made an attempt to use the law of averages (from the extreme macro level) to say what I was showing was normal. You didn't do that.

Did you stop to think that maybe I felt insulted by what you said, Andy? Clearly you didn't. You misquoted me on several occasions in an attempt to highlight what you were saying and then claimed that it didn't change anything when it was pointed out that you misquoted me. That is what most people call spin.

OK, did the work for you.

1) Avg run d rank of our 16 opponents is 17.43. (16.5 is AVERAGE)
2) Our average opponent allowed 118.5 yards per game and a 4.2 YPC average.
3) The AVERAGE NFL defense allowed 113 yards and 4.2 YPC.
Therefore our average opponent allowed exactly an average YPC and 4.87% more gross yards. OUR OWN PERFORMANCE ACCOUNTED FOR ABOUT HALF OF THAT 4.87%, in other words half of the reason these teams allowed more than average was because they had to play us.
We ran for 142.4 yards per game, which is 26% above average, and 20% higher than our competitors allowed in their average games.
We ran for 4.4 YPC.

So, if we were an average running team, and ran for the average of what our opponents allowed, we would have gained 118.5 per game, which is 382 fewer yards.
Had we run for what each team gave up on average our best 5 games would have added up to 41% of our rushing yards. So we can take 2% of our rushing yards, or 45 yards and attribute them to the dominance we had against the 5 teams DaBruinz says our season statistics are due to.

Bottom line, the schedule had virutally nothing to do with the rushing statistics, as compared to facing the average rushing defense week in and week out.
Considering that we outrushed what the defenses allowed, on average by 20%, we would have put up middle of the pack rushing stats is we played every week against the 6th best run defense in the NFL.

I think this is essentially IRON CLAD proof that the rushing #s we put up were not influenced by the competition, other than they were not added to or detracted from by facing above or below average competition (at least not more than 5% either way)