My knock on Maroney and the offense

[Rob0729]

I cant just let this go unanswered.
The issue is COACHES telling the media personal, internal opinions of players.

Here is what you have shown:
-When reporters ask people in the organization about prospective draft picks, they discuss them. That leads the media to SOMETIMES guess correctly. To achieve the burden of proof you think you have, there would need to be a pattern. At this point we only know that Felger guessed right. I am absolutely certain that they discussed numerous players, and that was his guess. They didnt even know who would be available when the pick came up.
-Your lynchpin of your argument seems to be that a reporter could never do anything wrong, why would they, they could be fired. That flies in the face of the coaches doing something that would get them fired, namely speaking to reporters (which they are not allowed to do) AND divulging secret information. What possible motiviation could a coach have in telling Micheal Felger who they were going to draft?
We all know Felgers history, how is it a stretch that he wanted to make himself sound more important so he claimed to have a source? That 'source' could well have been BB discussing potential draft picks in a pc and Felger gleaned that he said good things about Warren.

Burden of proof? You have missed on every end:
First, your only 'proof' in any case is uncorraborated. (To meet a burden of proof you need corroboration)
Second, what you are trying to 'prove' would not even answr the question because it is totally unrelated. Showing that some reporter at some point got some type of info from some person employed by the Pats is not meeting the burden of proof that a coach discussed a players actions and response to coaching with the media. In fact it isnt even close.
Finally, your ace in the hole is that what the reporter says must be true, the coach must have done what would get him fired, becuase the reporter would be doing what would get him fired if he didn't. How does an event that if true one person gets fired and if not the other gets fired prove that one or the other happened?

I cannot provide you what you want since you either are unable or unwilling to accept that if a reporter cites an unnamed source within the Patriots organization, it rarely if ever is coorborated by anyone even if Belichick leaked it on purpose. The fact that the information from the source ultimately comes true (like Felger on Warren) is the most coorboration you are going to get (and yes, that is coorboration through actions). I provided you proof of reporters citing unnamed sources within the Patriots organization with information on players. That is proof that reporters claim it happens. It is impossible to prove that what they are saying actually came from someone in the Pats' organization. Why not ask me to prove that God does or doesn't exist? That the universe is infinite?

One thing though, comparing a coach to making a remark that could be not huge to a reporter violating one of the biggest ethical violation in journalism is ridiculous. Making up a source is the journalistic equivalent of murder. There isn't a much worse crime in journalism. Only plagiarism is worse. I doubt someone would get fired from the Patriots for saying the Pats are disapointed in a player. Making up a source for a journalist would be the equilvalent of a Patriots' coach giving the opposing team the game plan for an upcoming game. You are basically comparing stealing a piece a fruit to murder.

BTW, I never said what a reporter says or writes must be true. You are putting words in my mouth. Look at my original quote that got this whole thing rolling that I reference in my last post. I said specifically:

The thing is that we do not know if Belichick and McDaniels felt that or the particular source (who may or may not been in a position to make that assessment) or the person in the media taking his own personal opinions and applying it to information that may or may not have been given to him/her which is different than what is being portrayed (Like I have a feeling Curran did with his Brady story making it sound worse than it was using the worst case scenario becuse he thought he had a scoop).

I don't take everything a media person claims they got from a source as true. I have plenty of posts that show that. I specifically stated instances (well you can throw out Michael Holley's since it was my opinion he had in inside source since he never admitted that he did) where a media person cited sources and the team's actions in one way or another backed up those claims whether it be drafting the player mentioned, cutting the player mentioned, or immediately trading away Cassel. That is COORBORATION. It may not be Belichick admitting that it is true, but it is actions that support the original claim. If that is not enough for you, then don't listen to guys like Adam Schefter who makes his living on citing unnamed sources who more often than not, end up giving him good information. Some journalists do do unethical things, but not all of them. Now are you are accusing people like Felger, Michael Smith, and others of being unethical? Where's YOUR PROOF of this? If you don't believe the stories, then you think they are manufacturing sources.

I am done with this. You are asking for the impossible.

 

[DW Toys]

DW-
adding D.Thomas to the trade along with Maroney and a second rounder looks better than what you said yesterday, (no Thomas) but without Adrian Wilson, the Cards never sniff the Super Bowl. Everyone has their opinions on their feasible trade options, but I think the Cards could certainly do better than 2 players who haven't proven too much for A.Wilson. They still have a whole yr, the possibility of the uncapped CBA, and even a possibility of a franchise tag for Wilson. He is an elite safety, who has at least another 5-6 yrs left, in other words--he is a VITAL part of their defense.

Saying just because they aren't dealing with him right now, makes about as much sense as saying we don't want Wilfork or Seymour because we are not dealing with them now. They have another yr, and he is not going anywhere. I think you are greatly underrating the man's skills.

Like I said yesterday, they are trying to avoid the big cap hit implied by Dansby's 2nd yr of being under the tag--that's why their dealing first with Dansby, he is a much more immediate need for negotiations right now. And Boldin is just throwing a wrench in things by complaining, demanding a trade, etc--so he takes 2nd priority. When the time is right, they'll make an incredible offer to keep A.Wilson, and if they did decide to trade him, they'll surely want at least a #1 and #3, if not for a MAJOR player. He is the 3rd most important player on the team, and surely #1 on defense. IMO--the trade scenario is still crazy, but post a thread on it, and see what everyone else tells you, if you don't believe me.

We're all entitled to our crazy trade scenarios, your opinion matters to me, like everyone else here. IMO, A.Wilson is a perennial pro bowler, and they'd laugh at a trade for Maroney, and David Thomas. The unproven second rounder doesn't make it much better. And remember, you mentioned nothing of adding Thomas yesterday, your scenario was Maroney and a second rounder for AZ's Adrian Wilson. Belichick would've thought he died and went to trade heaven under that scenario. Put a thread up, and see what others have to say. My guess is that you'll have similar responses

Fair enough. I appreciate the response. Monkey wrench two. Wilson for #23 and Maroney? As you suggested a one and three.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

Umm that makes no sense. If Maroney had great vision and were hitting the hole quickly, he'd actualy get to and through the hole. I think poor vision is the reason he's not finding the hole and running into his linemen instead. Another factor here might be lack of patience. Everyone knows that Maroney has speed, but if he can't utilize it properly, he's not going to be a useful pro RB.



Thank you for pointing out that YPC is not the end and total measure of a RB. I know alot of Maroney defenders think YPC is the only stat that matters but it hardly tells the whole story of how good a RB is, it's just one indicator.

Hallelujah! Cousin. Especially today and Happy Easter to all of you out there. Great points here.

We had another poster suggest that Maroney gets to the holes way too fast but let me digress.

Now understand the trick that is used on this site by some very smart posters. It took me a while to get it but I now do. If they don't have the answer to repudiate your statements or try to shout you down by the "because I said so" rule, they ask YOU to search for evidence to prove their cause. Don't fall for it. The arrogance fumes are intoxicating. You should have seen the "corkers" being throw on this thread yesterday about someone trying to mislead by false facts they contrive and post.....perfect. Conclusion? Stick to your guns. There is no one on this site that has the perfect answer. There is one dude who I actually suspect is BB who roams this site and he is laughing his derriere off at all of our b.s..He always tells us how stupid we really are and he knows the truth.
DW Toys

 

[BradyFTW!]

Hallelujah! Cousin. Especially today and Happy Easter to all of you out there. Great points here.

We had another poster suggest that Maroney gets to the holes way too fast but let me digress.

Now understand the trick that is used on this site by some very smart posters. It took me a while to get it but I now do. If they don't have the answer to repudiate your statements or try to shout you down by the "because I said so" rule, they ask YOU to search for evidence to prove their cause. Don't fall for it. The arrogance fumes are intoxicating. You should have seen the "corkers" being throw on this thread yesterday about someone trying to mislead by false facts they contrive and post.....perfect. Conclusion? Stick to your guns. There is no one on this site that has the perfect answer. There is one dude who I actually suspect is BB who roams this site and he is laughing his derriere off at all of our b.s..He always tells us how stupid we really are and he knows the truth.
DW Toys

That's not arrogance, it's how debating points works. If you're going to assert that Maroney has poor vision, then you'll need to supply some evidence of that fact, *especially* since there's a lot of evidence that show's that that's not the case (58% success rate in 2007, 92% of carries for a gain, 4.4 YPC). If you can't show any actual evidence of your own, then that means that you're almost certainly wrong. To demand that your opinion be taken seriously without providing anything to back it up is pretty much the pinnacle of arrogance on this site, and that's exactly what you're doing.

Also, I absolutely guarantee that Belichick does not roam this site.

 

[supafly]

Fair enough. I appreciate the response. Monkey wrench two. Wilson for #23 and Maroney? As you suggested a one and three.
DW Toys

I don't know, DW, I certainly will admit that I don't know any more than you do, and that many of our opinions about trades will differ. I think you are still hoping and reaching on the possible trade value of Maroney. I am disappointed too about his production, but with his current cap hit, rookie contract, etc + his potential for strong upside still, I think he's still of value to us. I really don't think he's on any kind of trading block, but if he can't produce next yr that would certainly be different.

There was a poster here that suggested we could only get a 5th rounder right now for Maroney, I guess I would probably meet the two of you in the middle, agreeing that his possible value could be somewhere between what he suggested (5th) and what you suggested (3rd). I still don't think it'd be enough for AZ to bite on an offer for their best defensive weapon, Adrian Wilson. I compare your scenario to Pittsburgh's Troy Polamuolu, do you think that they'd want to trade him for a 1st and Maroney? I certainly doubt it, even recognizing their underwhelmed need for a RB put aside. I believe you are still undervaluing how important Adrian Wilson is to the Cards, and his overall talent in the league. That said, I don't think they'd trade him for any situation, but an extremely blockbuster deal. I strongly believe he'll be making even more major money, when they re-sign or franchise him at worst next yr.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

That's not arrogance, it's how debating points works. If you're going to assert that Maroney has poor vision, then you'll need to supply some evidence of that fact, *especially* since there's a lot of evidence that show's that that's not the case (58% success rate in 2007, 92% of carries for a gain, 4.4 YPC). If you can't show any actual evidence of your own, then that means that you're almost certainly wrong. To demand that your opinion be taken seriously without providing anything to back it up is pretty much the pinnacle of arrogance on this site, and that's exactly what you're doing.

Also, I absolutely guarantee that Belichick does not roam this site.

You're wasting your time... He fancies himself the classic misunderstood and underappreciated football savant victimized by the a less enlightened and merely self proclaimed football intelligensia. His early musings used to be at least good for a laugh. My favorites were the plan to have fans vote on draftees (since it would make life more interesting and teams seem to do such a lousy job anyway) and his proposal to basically trade away the entire 2007 draft and all those costly unproved rookies for the chance to sign a bevy of pro bowlers including even malcontents like Shockey. Most any of recent agenda driven musings involve offloading Sanders and Maroney and/or one of the TE's. Had Bill paid attention to his mocks last year we could have skipped the costly investment in Mayo and let the Giants snag him at 31. And while we'd have whiffed by waiting for Cason we'd have landed an athletic SS (who ended up on Denvers PS) out of the 2nd.

But hey, what do any of us know... That used to be the foundation of NEM's circular and never ending arguments. Nobody can know, everyone has a right to an opinion - unless it disses mine because I'm right and all the proof i need is I know what I see with my own eyes...and you can't disprove that!!!

 

[supafly]

NEM--That's who it was!!!

I was trying to think of who use to come here and tick everyone off, ala Aqua4ever04 or Wide Receiver, or whoever he is today.

It was driving me nuts that I couldn't remember!!

 

[Ring 6]

I cannot provide you what you want since you either are unable or unwilling to accept that if a reporter cites an unnamed source within the Patriots organization, it rarely if ever is coorborated by anyone even if Belichick leaked it on purpose. The fact that the information from the source ultimately comes true (like Felger on Warren) is the most coorboration you are going to get (and yes, that is coorboration through actions). I provided you proof of reporters citing unnamed sources within the Patriots organization with information on players. That is proof that reporters claim it happens. It is impossible to prove that what they are saying actually came from someone in the Pats' organization. Why not ask me to prove that God does or doesn't exist? That the universe is infinite?

One thing though, comparing a coach to making a remark that could be not huge to a reporter violating one of the biggest ethical violation in journalism is ridiculous. Making up a source is the journalistic equivalent of murder. There isn't a much worse crime in journalism. Only plagiarism is worse. I doubt someone would get fired from the Patriots for saying the Pats are disapointed in a player. Making up a source for a journalist would be the equilvalent of a Patriots' coach giving the opposing team the game plan for an upcoming game. You are basically comparing stealing a piece a fruit to murder.

BTW, I never said what a reporter says or writes must be true. You are putting words in my mouth. Look at my original quote that got this whole thing rolling that I reference in my last post. I said specifically:



I don't take everything a media person claims they got from a source as true. I have plenty of posts that show that. I specifically stated instances (well you can throw out Michael Holley's since it was my opinion he had in inside source since he never admitted that he did) where a media person cited sources and the team's actions in one way or another backed up those claims whether it be drafting the player mentioned, cutting the player mentioned, or immediately trading away Cassel. That is COORBORATION. It may not be Belichick admitting that it is true, but it is actions that support the original claim. If that is not enough for you, then don't listen to guys like Adam Schefter who makes his living on citing unnamed sources who more often than not, end up giving him good information. Some journalists do do unethical things, but not all of them. Now are you are accusing people like Felger, Michael Smith, and others of being unethical? Where's YOUR PROOF of this? If you don't believe the stories, then you think they are manufacturing sources.

I am done with this. You are asking for the impossible.

1) The fact that something is difficult to corroborate does not make it true.
2) You keep saying you have leaks about players, but you do not. The only 'leak' you have is that Felger said he got inside info on a draft pick. That doesn't mean that you can extend that to everything reported is inside info. The 2 that you cite regarding players, Gabriel and Jackson, were never claimed to be based on inside information.
3) You simply cannot name 5 unrelated events, then infer that if one event included inside information, the other 4 must have. That is just horrific logic. As I have said all along, the draft pick guesses being right has nothing to do with this, but you remain fixated on it.
One more time: Whatever the reason Felger guessed right it is irrelevant. You seem to think that for some unknown reason someone in the Patriots organization decided to go tell Felger who we were picking and didn't care that he was going to print it in the newspaper, thereby risking the chance that someone else who wants him would trade up in front of us. (I find that ridiculous) But it could have come from discussing dozens of players with Pioli, BB, or someone else, and making a prediction based upon the answers.
<<<<By the way, if it was, as you want to suggest, Eric Mangini, and the Eagles read the article and moved up in front of us to take Warren, are you saying that is not as a bad a failure to his employer than a writer making up a source?>>>>> If you are we should end this and start talking about the weather.
4) For some reason you think that ethics matter more to a reporter than a football coach.
I dont know how a reporter violating the 'rules of journalism' is any different than a coach driectly violating instructions from his boss? It is the same thing.
5) I cannot understand how as a fan of the Patriots you don't recognize that BB goes far, far out of his way to keep player info secret. It is legendary how he will not discuss injuries. Do you really think that he would be OK with an assistant coach going to a reporter (right there he has directly defied a BB rule....people get fired for disobeying their boss) and tell him that Maroney doesn't do what the coaches tell him to, that they want him to hit the hole hard and he wont. Do you honestly think that BB would not find that information useful to an opponent? You are simply laughing that off like its no big deal. ITs HUGE. It is a coach of the team hurting the team. You seem to think they are willing, almost excited to do so, but you have not given a single reason why they would risk the team, their job, their reputation in order to do so. What does the coach who beterays the team and his boss gain?

 

[VJCPatriot]

If you have any evidence that Maroney is as bad, when healthy, as you suggest, I'd love to see it.

It's not about being bad, it's about getting it done. Maroney hasn't been getting the job done. And he has obvious weaknesses that some posters refuse to come to terms with. It's like he's become a magnet for excuses or something. If Maroney is so 'GOOD' why is he slated to be the 4th string runningback for the Pats after being a 1st round selection?

Yes I suppose Reiss is just 'making stuff up' too when he writes, "Maroney will have to prove he can stay healthy and stop dancing at the line of scrimmage to regain a significant backfield role." Gee in that one short blurb he summed up two of Maroney's obvious weaknesses. Need we go on? I'd rather not, it will just rile up the Maroney Defender's Club. Needless to say it is a prove it or get out of the league year for Maroney. Let's hope he finally 'gets it' but I won't hold my breath.

 

[Rob0729]

1) The fact that something is difficult to corroborate does not make it true.
2) You keep saying you have leaks about players, but you do not. The only 'leak' you have is that Felger said he got inside info on a draft pick. That doesn't mean that you can extend that to everything reported is inside info. The 2 that you cite regarding players, Gabriel and Jackson, were never claimed to be based on inside information.
3) You simply cannot name 5 unrelated events, then infer that if one event included inside information, the other 4 must have. That is just horrific logic. As I have said all along, the draft pick guesses being right has nothing to do with this, but you remain fixated on it.
One more time: Whatever the reason Felger guessed right it is irrelevant. You seem to think that for some unknown reason someone in the Patriots organization decided to go tell Felger who we were picking and didn't care that he was going to print it in the newspaper, thereby risking the chance that someone else who wants him would trade up in front of us. (I find that ridiculous) But it could have come from discussing dozens of players with Pioli, BB, or someone else, and making a prediction based upon the answers.
<<<<By the way, if it was, as you want to suggest, Eric Mangini, and the Eagles read the article and moved up in front of us to take Warren, are you saying that is not as a bad a failure to his employer than a writer making up a source?>>>>> If you are we should end this and start talking about the weather.
4) For some reason you think that ethics matter more to a reporter than a football coach.
I dont know how a reporter violating the 'rules of journalism' is any different than a coach driectly violating instructions from his boss? It is the same thing.
5) I cannot understand how as a fan of the Patriots you don't recognize that BB goes far, far out of his way to keep player info secret. It is legendary how he will not discuss injuries. Do you really think that he would be OK with an assistant coach going to a reporter (right there he has directly defied a BB rule....people get fired for disobeying their boss) and tell him that Maroney doesn't do what the coaches tell him to, that they want him to hit the hole hard and he wont. Do you honestly think that BB would not find that information useful to an opponent? You are simply laughing that off like its no big deal. ITs HUGE. It is a coach of the team hurting the team. You seem to think they are willing, almost excited to do so, but you have not given a single reason why they would risk the team, their job, their reputation in order to do so. What does the coach who beterays the team and his boss gain?

I'm done! We can agree to disagree and be done with it. I have nothing left to say and I haven't even read these comments. Nor will I. If you weren't a moderator, I'd put you on my ignore list. Please feel free to add me to your's.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's definitely the slow and touchy season....

 

[Ring 6]

I cannot provide you what you want since you either are unable or unwilling to accept that if a reporter cites an unnamed source within the Patriots organization, it rarely if ever is coorborated by anyone even if Belichick leaked it on purpose. The fact that the information from the source ultimately comes true (like Felger on Warren) is the most coorboration you are going to get (and yes, that is coorboration through actions). I provided you proof of reporters citing unnamed sources within the Patriots organization with information on players. That is proof that reporters claim it happens. It is impossible to prove that what they are saying actually came from someone in the Pats' organization. Why not ask me to prove that God does or doesn't exist? That the universe is infinite?

One thing though, comparing a coach to making a remark that could be not huge to a reporter violating one of the biggest ethical violation in journalism is ridiculous. Making up a source is the journalistic equivalent of murder. There isn't a much worse crime in journalism. Only plagiarism is worse. I doubt someone would get fired from the Patriots for saying the Pats are disapointed in a player. Making up a source for a journalist would be the equilvalent of a Patriots' coach giving the opposing team the game plan for an upcoming game. You are basically comparing stealing a piece a fruit to murder.

BTW, I never said what a reporter says or writes must be true. You are putting words in my mouth. Look at my original quote that got this whole thing rolling that I reference in my last post. I said specifically:



I don't take everything a media person claims they got from a source as true. I have plenty of posts that show that. I specifically stated instances (well you can throw out Michael Holley's since it was my opinion he had in inside source since he never admitted that he did) where a media person cited sources and the team's actions in one way or another backed up those claims whether it be drafting the player mentioned, cutting the player mentioned, or immediately trading away Cassel. That is COORBORATION. It may not be Belichick admitting that it is true, but it is actions that support the original claim. If that is not enough for you, then don't listen to guys like Adam Schefter who makes his living on citing unnamed sources who more often than not, end up giving him good information. Some journalists do do unethical things, but not all of them. Now are you are accusing people like Felger, Michael Smith, and others of being unethical? Where's YOUR PROOF of this? If you don't believe the stories, then you think they are manufacturing sources.

I am done with this. You are asking for the impossible.

I just reread your last paragraph.
Every time you post you get further and further from reality.

Let me review.
YOU said coaches blab about players, the coaching staffs assessment of them, their strengths, weaknesses, etc to the media, I said they do not.
YOU said that 3 examples of reporters guessing right on draft choices proves that. I said it does not.
YOU said that WITH NO EVIDENCE OF WHERE IT CAME FROM the conjecture on Gabriel and Jackson is proof. I said it was opinion, and no one ever said it was communicated by the team.
I said that IF-IF-IF-IF a reporter said that a Patriot coach gave him critical player evaluation information such as the claim vs Maroney, I would expect that reporter to be making it up. YOU gave no such evidence that this has ever been claimed, so conclude I accuse them of making it up.
THIS IS LUDICROUS.
You are now saying A happened and I am saying A didn't because B would have, and you turn the argument into me saying B happened. This is getting bizarre.

Please just STOP and READ what is being posted.
You have gotten so far from the facts, I dont you even know what your on argument is.

Bottom line is this:

I do not believe that a coach from the NE Patriots went to a reporter and told him how the staff feels about the way Maroney plays, that he doesn't listen to them and that they are unhappy with him.
I think that such a coach would be abandoning his responsiblity to the team and would be actively sabotaging what BB wants done.
I do not believe any of the coaches BB employs would do that.
I do not care if reporters guess well on draft picks. Examples of reporters giving their opinion of what they think is going on (Gabriel,Jackson) or even an accurate account without citing where it came from are also irrelevent.
You have typed 50,000 words, and not given one example of a coach telling the media what the coach-player relationship of any player is, or telling the media about players refusing to follow direction, or not doing what they are told. You 'close to' examples, in my opinion are nowhere in the vicinity of close.
Frankly, you have twisted the point into trying to argue that reporters are honest, and I have no idea what that has to do with anything. The fact that reporters who are paid to report get information from the team is a given, and does not begin to approach proving dereliction of duty on the part of the coach.

Lets try that angle.
The description that started this was that Maroney wouldn't do what the coaches told him, that they wanted him to run harder and he refused to.
The ACCUSATION was that a coach told this to the reporter and it was a FACT that this was the direct opinion of the coaching staff not specualtion from the reporter.
I conclude that if that accusation were true, that coach acted irresponsibly, violated BBs rules, harmed the team, and was derelict in his duties as a coach.

So far, it appears that you are saying that is exactly what you think happened. I am saying that no coach told that to a reporter that the reporter was giving his own opinion. By the way, as far as I know, no reporter ever said this came from a coach, and I'm not even sure anyone ever even said it.
The entire point when this started was that the comments that the poster was attributing to coming from the coaching staff not only didn't come from the coaching staff, but I think they came from people posting their opinion on this board.
That is how out of whack you have made this. You are arguing that comments no one has ever shown were really made, much less attrubted to anyone who attributed them to a coach, can be proven to be true and come from a coach.
PLEASE READ MORE AND WRITE LESS and try to not be so defensive.

 

[Rob0729]

I just reread your last paragraph.
Every time you post you get further and further from reality.

Let me review.
YOU said coaches blab about players, the coaching staffs assessment of them, their strengths, weaknesses, etc to the media, I said they do not.
YOU said that 3 examples of reporters guessing right on draft choices proves that. I said it does not.
YOU said that WITH NO EVIDENCE OF WHERE IT CAME FROM the conjecture on Gabriel and Jackson is proof. I said it was opinion, and no one ever said it was communicated by the team.
I said that IF-IF-IF-IF a reporter said that a Patriot coach gave him critical player evaluation information such as the claim vs Maroney, I would expect that reporter to be making it up. YOU gave no such evidence that this has ever been claimed, so conclude I accuse them of making it up.
THIS IS LUDICROUS.
You are now saying A happened and I am saying A didn't because B would have, and you turn the argument into me saying B happened. This is getting bizarre.

Please just STOP and READ what is being posted.
You have gotten so far from the facts, I dont you even know what your on argument is.

Bottom line is this:

I do not believe that a coach from the NE Patriots went to a reporter and told him how the staff feels about the way Maroney plays, that he doesn't listen to them and that they are unhappy with him.
I think that such a coach would be abandoning his responsiblity to the team and would be actively sabotaging what BB wants done.
I do not believe any of the coaches BB employs would do that.
I do not care if reporters guess well on draft picks. Examples of reporters giving their opinion of what they think is going on (Gabriel,Jackson) or even an accurate account without citing where it came from are also irrelevent.
You have typed 50,000 words, and not given one example of a coach telling the media what the coach-player relationship of any player is, or telling the media about players refusing to follow direction, or not doing what they are told. You 'close to' examples, in my opinion are nowhere in the vicinity of close.
Frankly, you have twisted the point into trying to argue that reporters are honest, and I have no idea what that has to do with anything. The fact that reporters who are paid to report get information from the team is a given, and does not begin to approach proving dereliction of duty on the part of the coach.

Lets try that angle.
The description that started this was that Maroney wouldn't do what the coaches told him, that they wanted him to run harder and he refused to.
The ACCUSATION was that a coach told this to the reporter and it was a FACT that this was the direct opinion of the coaching staff not specualtion from the reporter.
I conclude that if that accusation were true, that coach acted irresponsibly, violated BBs rules, harmed the team, and was derelict in his duties as a coach.

So far, it appears that you are saying that is exactly what you think happened. I am saying that no coach told that to a reporter that the reporter was giving his own opinion. By the way, as far as I know, no reporter ever said this came from a coach, and I'm not even sure anyone ever even said it.
The entire point when this started was that the comments that the poster was attributing to coming from the coaching staff not only didn't come from the coaching staff, but I think they came from people posting their opinion on this board.
That is how out of whack you have made this. You are arguing that comments no one has ever shown were really made, much less attrubted to anyone who attributed them to a coach, can be proven to be true and come from a coach.
PLEASE READ MORE AND WRITE LESS and try to not be so defensive.

Again, feel free to add me to your ignore list. In fact, I encourage you to do so since I can't add you to mine.

 

[Ring 6]

Again, feel free to add me to your ignore list. In fact, I encourage you to do so since I can't add you to mine.[/QUOTE

Why would I put you on my ignore list?
You are allowed to be wrong. I just don't know why people argue like its the most important thing in the world, then when they realize they are wrong they lash out at the other person as if they are a bad person for having a good argument.
I understand everything you were saying.
The funny part is that if you tried to understand what the argument was, you wouldn't have posted all of the non-sense that you did. Some of what you said would have made a decent argument if the topic were something else. Unfortunately all you did was waste time with information that was irrelevant to the discussion. As I said, i suggest you read and comprehend what you are responding to instead of taking off on a rampage to prove a point that no one else is discussing.

 

[DW Toys]

I don't know, DW, I certainly will admit that I don't know any more than you do, and that many of our opinions about trades will differ. I think you are still hoping and reaching on the possible trade value of Maroney. I am disappointed too about his production, but with his current cap hit, rookie contract, etc + his potential for strong upside still, I think he's still of value to us. I really don't think he's on any kind of trading block, but if he can't produce next yr that would certainly be different.

There was a poster here that suggested we could only get a 5th rounder right now for Maroney, I guess I would probably meet the two of you in the middle, agreeing that his possible value could be somewhere between what he suggested (5th) and what you suggested (3rd). I still don't think it'd be enough for AZ to bite on an offer for their best defensive weapon, Adrian Wilson. I compare your scenario to Pittsburgh's Troy Polamuolu, do you think that they'd want to trade him for a 1st and Maroney? I certainly doubt it, even recognizing their underwhelmed need for a RB put aside. I believe you are still undervaluing how important Adrian Wilson is to the Cards, and his overall talent in the league. That said, I don't think they'd trade him for any situation, but an extremely blockbuster deal. I strongly believe he'll be making even more major money, when they re-sign or franchise him at worst next yr.

You could have a point on Wilson. I don't know nuttin on this site Cousin. I am told I am the biggest offender by JB. But I appreciate your comment and if everybody just lightened up a bit, this would be more fun. Just remember the rule, If they don't know, they ask you to prove it....perfect. I don't know why I did not think of that.
This is for fun, enjoyment and speculation but there are many bullies on this forum.
I react to a trade scenario if I see one that's all. It isn't a conclusion that I say will definitely happen and change the world. It's like a murder scene I have said. You have to have motive. An unhappy camper got Cutler out of Denver. He is more of a value that Wilson. Is that a fair statement?
We could have the ammo to do something, that's all I am saying.
Have a good Easter.
DW Toys

 

[Synovia]

It's not about being bad, it's about getting it done. Maroney hasn't been getting the job done..

4.4 YPC. 58% success rate. 92% carries for gain. Great DVOA.


If Maroney isn't getting it done, no one in the NFL is. His numbers were in the top 5 in every single category.

 

[BradyFTW!]

4.4 YPC. 58% success rate. 92% carries for gain. Great DVOA.


If Maroney isn't getting it done, no one in the NFL is. His numbers were in the top 5 in every single category.

To be fair, it was 8% of his carries that were for a loss, so 92% were for 0 or more yards (as opposed to a gain). I think I may has misstated that once or twice myself, so that's probably where the confusion would have come from. But the point still stands that it completely contradicts these guys' perception of Maroney.

By the same analysis, he ran for 3+ yards on 60% of his carries, which, while by no means elite (and actually a bit of a weak point, from some of the comparables that I placed him up against), isn't nearly the crapfest that VJCPatriot, DWToys, and some of the others seem to think it is.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

It's not about being bad, it's about getting it done. Maroney hasn't been getting the job done. And he has obvious weaknesses that some posters refuse to come to terms with. It's like he's become a magnet for excuses or something. If Maroney is so 'GOOD' why is he slated to be the 4th string runningback for the Pats after being a 1st round selection?

Yes I suppose Reiss is just 'making stuff up' too when he writes, "Maroney will have to prove he can stay healthy and stop dancing at the line of scrimmage to regain a significant backfield role." Gee in that one short blurb he summed up two of Maroney's obvious weaknesses. Need we go on? I'd rather not, it will just rile up the Maroney Defender's Club. Needless to say it is a prove it or get out of the league year for Maroney. Let's hope he finally 'gets it' but I won't hold my breath.

I don't know. Was he making it up last July and August when at every turn he devalued Cassel at the expense of O'Connell (why else was he drafted) and Gutierrez (whom the coaches loved so much...they didn't even bother to put him on the PS until after Brady went down...). Maybe it's just because like us, they all have opinions that sometimes defy logic and they can't help but let that color their musings...Not to mention they're all lemmings...like a lot of their followers here. Cassel threw one pick in 2006 and suddenly was regressing and "couldn't move the team in PS". Luckily for him Bill isn't myopic and that wasn't what he was being asked to do. He was being asked to prove to Belichick and McDaniels that he could run their offense as called while they evaluated all the other moving parts of it. He clearly remained the #2 QB throughout camp and preseason and yet the mediots and fanboys who hang on their every word and trust what they think they see couldn't grasp that because it didn't fit their hastily preconceived notion that he was worthless...

Riddle me this. Why would Belichick spend an entire off season attempting to change the blocking scheme to a zone blocking scheme if he was intending to remain a power running team? That he couldn't do it is more an indictment on this OL and their coaches than anything. That's one reason why some of us never forget to mention the trenches and how upgrading talent there is never a bad investment. The other being a HOF QB who spent 15 weeks on IR last season while his backup spent his first 8 weeks pulling grass out of his teeth. Belichick drafted Maroney to upgrade the talent on this team from plow horse to thoroughbred. Only his OL got the thoroughbred hurt before his first season was in the books. He's been playing hurt ever since. Hopefully this year after his own trip to IR he will be back healthy. Would be nice if the OL was finally ready to make the most of that.

 

[DW Toys]

I don't know. Was he making it up last July and August when at every turn he devalued Cassel at the expense of O'Connell (why else was he drafted) and Gutierrez (whom the coaches loved so much...they didn't even bother to put him on the PS until after Brady went down...). Maybe it's just because like us, they all have opinions that sometimes defy logic and they can't help but let that color their musings...Not to mention they're all lemmings...like a lot of their followers here. Cassel threw one pick in 2006 and suddenly was regressing and "couldn't move the team in PS". Luckily for him Bill isn't myopic and that wasn't what he was being asked to do. He was being asked to prove to Belichick and McDaniels that he could run their offense as called while they evaluated all the other moving parts of it. He clearly remained the #2 QB throughout camp and preseason and yet the mediots and fanboys who hang on their every word and trust what they think they see couldn't grasp that because it didn't fit their hastily preconceived notion that he was worthless...

Riddle me this. Why would Belichick spend an entire off season attempting to change the blocking scheme to a zone blocking scheme if he was intending to remain a power running team? That he couldn't do it is more an indictment on this OL and their coaches than anything. That's one reason why some of us never forget to mention the trenches and how upgrading talent there is never a bad investment. The other being a HOF QB who spent 15 weeks on IR last season while his backup spent his first 8 weeks pulling grass out of his teeth. Belichick drafted Maroney to upgrade the talent on this team from plow horse to thoroughbred. Only his OL got the thoroughbred hurt before his first season was in the books. He's been playing hurt ever since. Hopefully this year after his own trip to IR he will be back healthy. Would be nice if the OL was finally ready to make the most of that.

Have you ever seen a thread so split about one player who more than likely will not make a difference in the amount of wins this season whether he plays or not? He will be a non-issue IMO one way or the other. That is not what you want though is it? We should make a new thread on this."Will he or will he not?"

Moe, You have some good points. VJC has some good points. Right now VJC is winning by a few rounds. I have a tendency to believe what he is telling me. Those stats are meaningless. If I believed them, I would say he's Jim Brown but it just goes to show you how stats are bogus. Stats are too easily manipulated to get the results you need. Too many factors. What time in the game did he get his biggest yards, Down, Distance, Opponent, Score etc. He gets eight or ten one or two yard gains and a few loses behind the line of scrimmage and happens to break one for twenty....bang! great stats. Nope, I am not buying. I believe my eyes over any stats and anyone, .....and I mean anyone on this site that says that they see more than a mediocre back right now with spurts of promise, is kidding themselves.

Show me Cousins. Nobody has said or shown one thing to convince me. I do not watch football on the radio. I admit I was a non believer in Cassel, but to be fair, didn't have a lot of "tape" on him. Still, guilty as charged. I have three years on Maroney. I think he is a great kid but alas...the vision deal without question is true and there is no convincing otherwise to myself (and I take my lumps sometimes justified) or very respected other posters.
He does not like to get hit and he goes down the first pop. Now tell me VJC is wrong about that? He is #39 right we are discussing?

It would be great if he had a super season. I don't see it. If the blocking scheme was changed for a "thoroughbred" it was changed back to plowhorse and our running game started working (Neal? Perhasp).

Interesting conversation and 12 pages long but there is no winner on any side so far. My eyes tell me VJC is more correct than not. Many good points here though Cousins. Good fight!
DW Toys

 

[BradyFTW!]

Stats are too easily manipulated to get the results you need. Too many factors.

Yes, because clearly FootballOutsiders.com's agenda is to promote the myth that Laurence Maroney is good RB