Anyone Else Think Connor Barwin Is Overrated?

[Box_O_Rocks]

It's very interesting that you keep busting a load over Barwin's athletic measurables, his intangibles, his one year of production, and want the Pats to spend their #1 on him, when Trevor Scott was the exact same prospect last year, went in the 6th round last year, and only played on passing downs this year in the NFL because he is a liability against the run.

Nice cherry picking. Since you've addressed the negatives, here's the other side of the coin.

Link #1 - positives: Smooth with good balance and agility...Terrific range...Does a great job in pursuit and has a burst to close...Is comfortable in space...Very instinctive with good awareness...Excellent special teamer...Extremely versatile...Intense and competitive...Smart...A fantastic work ethic...Has a ton of upside.

OLB qualities: "Terrific" range. √ Comfortable in space. √ "Very" instinctive with good awareness. √ Smart. √ "Great" job in pursuit and has a burst to close. √ "Fantastic" work ethic. √


Link #2 - Mocking Dan, either his parents didn't like him or he's an out of work sports writer - positives: He brings it hard every down and plays with a lot of emotion. Incredibly quick off the snap. Good speed that allows him to close quickly on the ball carrier. Developing pass-rush moves. Uses a spin fairly well. Solid covering backs on screens and broke up a lot of passes. Hands aren't great but better than most defensive ends. Strong work ethic. Will immediately be a special teams factor. Really good against returns and blocked three punts as a senior.

OLB qualities: "Incredibly" quick off the snap. √ Speed allows him to close quickly on the ball carrier." √ Developing pass rush moves... Hold it, this is listed as a positive, how can that be...unless it's because he showed dramatic progress over the entire course of the 2008 season?!!! √ "Solid" covering backs on screens and broke up a lot of passes. √ Hands aren't great, "but" better than "most" defensive ends... In only one season, oh my √ "Strong" work ethic. √


Link #3 - by Anthony, his parents liked him better than Mocking Dan's did, too bad he hasn't kept up with things, people know Barwins height and weight now, he could update his report - positives: Showed his versatility by switching to defensive end in his senior year after playing tight end during his first three seasons. Has a pretty good first step that leads to him getting good pressure. Has a non-stop motor. Consistent tackler.

OLB qualities: Versatilty. √ Good first step. √ Motor. √ "Consistent" tackler. √


Link #4 - Heh, Rob Tribbett, this cat has a name! - positives: explosive burst off the line of scrimmage...terrific instincts...non stop motor...uses his athleticism well...outstanding range...hard worker who is still developing...a potential NFL star...closes when he gets to the QB...outstanding senior season...offer a lot of special teams value...could use his tight end ability as a goaline player at the next level...shows good awareness

OLB Qualities: Burst. √ "Terrific instincts. √ Looks like Anthony is out voted. Motor. √ "Outstanding" range. √ Hard Worker. √ "Good" awareness. √ Anthony is outvoted again.


Here's a new link for you mav:
NFL Draft Scout on CBS Sports Connor Barwin, Cincinnati, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com Football
They are also the same people who provide the profiles for NFL.com NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Connor Barwin:

- positives: Physical at the point of attack. … Can get under the offensive tackle's pads and push him into the quarterback. … Has effective stutter and spin moves. … Relentless as a pass rusher, he also hustles down the line and chases ballcarriers downfield. … Good backfield awareness to knock down passes and keep contain on reverses, run plays and bootlegs. … Uses his hands well to keep blockers away and shed to make tackles. … Stands up on some plays -- may fit as a 3-4 rush linebacker. … Very coachable because of his intelligence, work ethic and motor. … A special teams ace since his freshman year; he blocked three punts in 2008.

OLB Qualities: Physical at the point of attack. √ Wait, didn't Anthony say he wasn't, and Rob Tribbett said hedged his bet with "may?" Can't these "experts" agree on anything? Bull rush. √ "Effective" pass rush moves. √ Relentless, hustles. √ "Good" backfield awareness. √ That's another vote aganst Anthony's perspective. Uses his hands "well." √ Heh, he "stands up on some plays." √ "Very" coachable - intelligence, work ethic, and motor. √√√


Okay mav4, I see your Mocking Dan and your Anthony and raise you patchick, Jays52, and mayoclinic - I've got one more interweb draftynik guru than you do.

I'll even raise you another patsfans.com personality: Christopher Price | Barwin busting out of traditional mold

He certainly has the NFL establishment confused. While everyone is in agreement that he’s a first-rounder, no one is quite sure where he will be plugged in once he gets to the pros: Will he be a defensive end? He played defensive end as a senior last year at Cincinnati, and finished with 15½ tackles for loss, 11 sacks and seven pass breakups. And that’s where he worked out last month at the NFL Scouting Combine.

Is he going to be an outside linebacker? His size and speed would certainly lead some to believe he would translate well to the OLB spot in a 3-4 scheme in the NFL. It was the same route Vrabel and Tedy Bruschi took — both defensive linemen who were too undersized to make the transition to the trenches in the NFL, they flourished at linebacker in the pros.

Or is he a tight end? He had 31 catches for 399 yards and a pair of touchdowns as a junior with the Bearcats. Athletic enough to play on the Bearcats basketball team, his hands and athleticism in space — as well as his excellent speed — have drawn comparisons to Tony Gonzalez.

I watched Barwin in games, you watched him on youtube. The consensus around the NFl community is Barwin is easily a high second and may be taken in the first round, you compare him to 6th round pick Trevor Scott (by the way, NFL Draft Scout rated Scott the 178th best prospect last year, Oakland drafted him at 169...NFL Draft Scout has Barwin at #33 this year...just saying). If I'm overrating him, just what are you doing and why are you doing it?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Dang, I work too slow or DaBruinz is using meth to get through the work day again!

 

[PATSNUTme]

Yup, so he has no "true" position (isn't that what the naysayers tell us about Barwin...not that you ever would.)

He unseated a Freshman.

Oooookay then, you want roll in the blood, and the mud, and the beer...

Courtesy of the unrelenting Christopher Price (I wonder if he annoys Armando Salguero too?). Christopher Price | The Son Also Rises: Matthews on cusp of NFL

Setting aside the relationship between the elder Matthews and Belichick — who has said he was “lucky” to get a chance to coach someone like Matthews — both his father and Wegher believe the 22-year-old would be a classic fit in New England, which holds the 23rd and 34th overall pick in next month’s draft.

 

[Feep50]

I honestly don't know what to think of Barwin, except to say he has all the measurables and is an intriguing prospect. Is he a good pick in the middle of round 2? BB and Company may get a chance to answer that question for all of us....... My .02 cents

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Setting aside the relationship between the elder Matthews and Belichick — who has said he was “lucky” to get a chance to coach someone like Matthews — both his father and Wegher believe the 22-year-old would be a classic fit in New England, which holds the 23rd and 34th overall pick in next month’s draft.

Yeh, Daddy doesn't want his little boy playing for Oakland.

 

[maverick4]

I think in his own special way Mav is trying to tell us that Barwin wouldn't be a good value in the 1st Rd, he maybe a good player but he doesn't want to take him in Rd 1. At least I think that's what he's trying to communicate.

Exactly. I'm not knocking Trevor Scott, nor am I really trying to trash Barwin. Scott was a great pick under-rated player in the 6th round, and Barwin is over-rated as a 1st rounder. I think a late 2nd or somewhere in the 3rd round is where Barwin should be. Everyone forgets he was a 4th rounder before the combine and Senior events. It is unjustifiable to take such a raw player in the first round, especially when you look at what his clone Trevor Scott did this past year in the NFL.

Also, Box can quote Chris Price all he wants about Barwin supposedly being a consensus 1st rounder, it doesn't add to his argument. A lot of major busts were also consensus 1st round picks as well.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Exactly. I'm not knocking Trevor Scott, nor am I really trying to trash Barwin. Scott was a great pick int he 6th round, and Barwin is over-rated as a 1st rounder. I think a late 2nd or somewhere in the 3rd round is where Barwin should be. It is insane to take such a raw player in the first round, especially when you look at what his clone Trevor Scott did this past year in the NFL.

Also, Box can quote Chris Price all he wants about Barwin supposedly being a consensus 1st rounder, it doesn't add to his argument. A lot of major busts were also consensus 1st round picks as well.

Oh that has been Chris Price chatting with such nobodies as Mike Mayock. mav, your logic is just too compelling for me, Barwin will last until the 6th round and NE has no reason to be interested in him.

 

[BPF]

If Barwin becomes a pro-bowl caliber 3-4 OLB he will be exceptional value at 23. If he ends up being a bust, he will be poor value at 34, 47 or 58.

If he is selected in the 1st Rd and doesn't become a pro-bowler all we will read and hear about is the players the Pats passed over to "reach" for the athletically gifted Barwin. Honestly I feel with all the ammo the Pats have in terms of picks that they will trade up in Rd 1 to get the player they covet or someone that slides and with all the OTs a good player is bound to slide. Also why do the Pats have to take Barwin at 23? Can't they trade into the bottom portion of Rd 1 and take him there, if need be or if another team is hot to trade into late Rd 1 or with Detroit at 33 to get him? I think a trade to anywhere from 28-32 would get it done if that's the case. Realistically though I don't think any of these teams picking after the Pats at 23 and before them at 34 will take him, do you? Parcells loves his LB's, especially in the 1st Rd but Miami needs a playmaker at WR big time now that they have solved their C issue. Baltimore is going with a CB in my mind because a lot of those "short" CBs in this year's draft like Smith and Moore will represent value to them, especially after releasing Rolle and McAlister and with Washington being a FA next yr there is also a need. Indy is going DL no doubt in my mind. Philly is going either OL, TE or RB depending on what they do at 21 and I also see them as a candidate to trade out of Rd 1 into next year. Giants are going WR and they could be a good trading partner if the Pats are looking to move down so they can jump over Miami to grab a WR. Although Tennessee needs a WR they will probably stay put and take either a CB, Harper is 35 and they have no depth at all or DL. Arizona is either going RB or C. Pittsburgh is getting old at DL so they need to grab one here, if not they will probably go OL or CB. I don't see Detroit taking him at 33 either, they need to get big and physical up front on both sides of the ball and too many quality interior OL will be sitting there for them to grab.

1-24-24 Atlanta

1-25-25 Miami

1-26-26 Baltimore

1-27-27 Indianapolis

1-28-28 Philadelphia from Carolina

1-29-29 New York Giants

1-30-30 Tennessee

1-31-31 Arizona

1-32-32 Pittsburgh

ROUND TWO

2- 1-33 Detroit

 

[PATSNUTme]

Here are some of the better site and how they have Barwin and Matthews ranked overall.

Matthews Barwin

Scouts.com 24 43
NFLDraftScouts 22 33
GBN 26 43
Warroom 28 48
National Football post 15 29

So we could end up getting both the players if those rankings hold true and BB agrees. How would that be?

 

[maverick4]

mav, your logic is just too compelling for me, Barwin will last until the 6th round and NE has no reason to be interested in him.

Only someone lacking in reading comprehension, such as yourself, would come to such a conclusion. Perhaps it is also why you seem to have so many inconsistencies in your reasoning abilities as well.

I said Trevor Scott was a great value pick/steal in the 6th round, not that Barwin was a 6th rounder. I have said multiple times that Barwin is probably a low 2nd or a 3rd rounder. Barwin started out as a 4th rounder immediately after the regular season ended. I said Barwin is overrated at #23 overall, not that he is a 6th rounder. Only a person devoid of logical reasoning skills would come to that conclusion based on my statements.

 

[Grizzafted]

I'm sold on this kid. Whatever.

Man we are like rich people arguing about buying a yacht or a jet. With the picks we have, we're going to get some real talent this year. Personally I'd like to see Barwin, Beatty, and Delmas as Pats next year but that might be unlikely. And you got Meriweather and Wheatley developing...remember, Shawn Crable looked good in camp last year, I think this guy might be under people's radars right now.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Only someone lacking in reading comprehension, such as yourself, would come to such a conclusion. Perhaps it is also why you seem to have so many inconsistencies in your reasoning abilities as well.

I said Trevor Scott was a great value pick/steal in the 6th round, not that Barwin was a 6th rounder. I have said multiple times that Barwin is probably a low 2nd or a 3rd rounder. Barwin started out as a 4th rounder immediately after the regular season ended. I said Barwin is overrated at #23 overall, not that he is a 6th rounder. Only a person devoid of logical reasoning skills would come to that conclusion based on my statements.

I certainly hope you're correct, I'd hate to have someone with your immense talent for logic wind up questioning himself and wind up in a downward spiral of self doubt.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I'm just going to sit back and let the dust settle like Patsnut mentioned. If Barwin is picked with the 23rd selection then we know that he is BB's guy. If BB does this I'm going to go nuts, not totally over Barwin himself , just excited that BB is so high on the guy and his potential that he thinks he can coach the kid to become a monster LB for years to come. Draft day is getting close guys and girls.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm sold on this kid. Whatever.

Man we are like rich people arguing about buying a yacht or a jet. With the picks we have, we're going to get some real talent this year. Personally I'd like to see Barwin, Beatty, and Delmas as Pats next year but that might be unlikely. And you got Meriweather and Wheatley developing...remember, Shawn Crable looked good in camp last year, I think this guy might be under people's radars right now.

Barwin, Beatty and Delmas are my dream picks at 23, 34, and 47 this year, in that order. I'm holding my breath.

 

[JoeShmoe]

Barwin, Beatty and Delmas are my dream picks at 23, 34, and 47 this year, in that order. I'm holding my breath.

Id take Britton (or Oher if he fell) at #20 (packaging #89 to move up) and then Barwin and Delmas like you at 34 and 47. The last second round pick id be tempted to look at an OG but not sure who's around or of value (Loadholt?)

 

[mayoclinic]

Id take Britton (or Oher if he fell) at #20 (packaging #89 to move up) and then Barwin and Delmas like you at 34 and 47. The last second round pick id be tempted to look at an OG but not sure who's around or of value (Loadholt?)

Britton vs. Beatty is a classic floor vs. ceiling kind of thing. There's a separate thread on this. To each his own.

My current "wet dream":

23 - Connor Barwin, OLB
34 - William Beatty, OT
47 - Louis Delmas, S
58 - trade into 2010 unless Eric Wood, Jarron Gilbert or James Casey are available
89 - Chris Baker or Sammie Lee Hill, DT or trade into 2010 (if 58 not traded)
97 - TJ Lang or Trevor Canfield, OG
124 - Mike Wallace, WR
170 - Jason Phillips, ILB (a steal; falls because of his leg injury)
199 - Devin Moore, RB - I love that we have #199 again
207 - Kevin Huber, P
234 - Ladarius Webb, CB

 

[tanked_as_usual]

well.....everyone will be glad to know that it seems that someone else is taking up the title of this year's bust and that barwin is safe........


Earlier in the day, NFL.com’s Gil Brandt offered up a glowing review of Brian Orakpo’s Pro Day workout.

But not everyone feels that way.

Per one league source, some scouts viewed the linebacker/defensive end’s workout as “brutal.”

According to the source, Orakpo is regarded by some as having “great athletic abilities but bad football skills.” It’s prompting some to question whether Orakpo merits even a first-round pick.

If this sounds familiar, it should. There’s a chance that Orakpo could be the latest in a line of “looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane” players, including past first-rounders like Vernon Gholston and Mike Mamula. (Then there’s Alabama’s Andre Smith, who as one reader pointed out after Smith’s recent shirtless sprint “plays like Tarzan, looks like Jane.”)

Even Gil Brandt, who is regarded by many as having a bias in favor of Texas football, acknowledges that Orakpo is “one of those guys that appears to play hard 90 percent of the time, but takes a vacation the other 10 percent.”

It’s the kind of attitude that could put a coach or a G.M. on vacation 100 percent of the time if they pick Orakpo, and if he doesn’t deliver.

 

[mayoclinic]

well.....everyone will be glad to know that it seems that someone else is taking up the title of this year's bust and that barwin is safe........


Earlier in the day, NFL.com’s Gil Brandt offered up a glowing review of Brian Orakpo’s Pro Day workout.

But not everyone feels that way.

Per one league source, some scouts viewed the linebacker/defensive end’s workout as “brutal.”

According to the source, Orakpo is regarded by some as having “great athletic abilities but bad football skills.” It’s prompting some to question whether Orakpo merits even a first-round pick.

If this sounds familiar, it should. There’s a chance that Orakpo could be the latest in a line of “looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane” players, including past first-rounders like Vernon Gholston and Mike Mamula. (Then there’s Alabama’s Andre Smith, who as one reader pointed out after Smith’s recent shirtless sprint “plays like Tarzan, looks like Jane.”)

Even Gil Brandt, who is regarded by many as having a bias in favor of Texas football, acknowledges that Orakpo is “one of those guys that appears to play hard 90 percent of the time, but takes a vacation the other 10 percent.”

It’s the kind of attitude that could put a coach or a G.M. on vacation 100 percent of the time if they pick Orakpo, and if he doesn’t deliver.

Sounds like a lock for Cleveland at #5.

 

[Urgent]

Looking at Barwin:

When you compare him with a guy like, say, Robert Ayers, who Mayock has listed as his #5 overall, or Larry English, a popular pick for the Pats at #23:

Measurables:
Ayers: 6-3.3 273; 4.80 40-yd; 18 reps; 30" vertical; 8-6 long jump; 7.1 3 cone

English: 6-2.1 274 ; 4.85 40-yd; 24 reps 36" vertical no data long jump; 7.3 3 cone


Barwin: 6-3.7 251; 4.50 40-yd; 23 reps; 41" vertical; 10-8 long jump; 6.9 3 cone

Barwin's athleticism leaps out. His quickness, measured by the 3-cone agility test, is dramatically better. His explosion, measured by the long jump and vertical, is dramatically better. His overall speed, for covering tight ends or even receivers, is dramatically better.

What about production?

Ayers: 49 tackles/15.5 tfl, 3 sacks, 0 PBU/1 INT

English: 37 tackles/16 tfl, 8 sacks, 1 PBU/0 INT

Barwin: 53 tackles/16 tfl, 11 sacks, 8 PBU/0 INT

Barwin's production was better as well. More tackles. Dramatically more sacks. More passes broken up in coverage.

The big knock, of course, is that he is raw, inexperienced as a DE.
The other way of looking at it is that he put up that kind of production in his first year as a DE. He has huge upside.

This isn't a case of a college power forward converting to tight end. This is a football player, who has been studying film and going to camps and playing games. He's been going against defensive ends, and probably played end in high school.

If he is a liability on the edge against the run right now, that might not be a bad problem for the Pats. It's sort of the opposite of Woods, who could play run downs early in the season. If the Pats ended up with Barwin, he could play the TBC designated pass-rusher role early in his career, and gradually improve against the run. It's actually not a bad fit.

Whether he is this year's Vernon Gholston will only be found out on the field.

 

[mayoclinic]

I don't think English is 274#. He was mistakenly listed at 272 at the combine on nfl.com's web site, whereas he actually weighed in at 254#. He did run 4.85 at that weight, which is not terribly impressive, and his agility numbers suggest DE rather than OLB.